Debates of Dec. 3rd, 1993

This is page numbers 399 - 430 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 4th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was chairman .

Topics

Members Present

Item 1: Prayer

"diamonds In The Rough," Women In The Mining Trade Calendar

Spruce Hen Observations And Comparisons To Aboriginal People

Northern Heritage Column In The Mackenzie Times Newspaper

Absence Of Ministers In The House

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Amendments To The Hours Of Service Regulations And Large Vehicle Control Regulations

Bill 5: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 5, 1992-93

Bill 6: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

To Adopt Recommendation 18

To Adopt Recommendation 19

To Delete $15,000 From Equipment Acquisition, Headquarters

To Adopt Tabled Document 11-12(4)

Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Revert Back To Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Item 21: Orders Of The Day

Members Present

Mr. Allooloo , Mr. Antoine , Mr. Arngna'naaq , Hon. Michael Ballantyne , Hon. Nellie Cournoyea , Mr. Dent , Mr. Gargan , Hon. Stephen Kakfwi , Mr. Koe , Mr. Lewis , Mrs. Marie-Jewell , Hon. Rebecca Mike , Hon. Don Morin , Hon. Richard Nerysoo , Mr. Ng , Mr. Ningark , Hon. John Pollard , Mr. Pudlat , Mr. Pudluk , Mr. Whitford

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---Prayer

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 399

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Lewis . Good morning. Orders of the day for Friday, December 3, 1993. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Lewis .

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"diamonds In The Rough," Women In The Mining Trade Calendar

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 399

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last night, Mr. Whitford spent several hours in the Explorer Hotel, while many of us were sweating it out with the Western Constitutional Development Steering Committee. But I think he spent time to much better advantage than we did. He was fortunate enough, Mr. Speaker, to meet women called, "Diamonds in the Rough." There were nine of them who were featured on a calendar, which has been produced by these women geologists. The proceeds for the calendar will go the Walter Gibbins memorial fund, which was established in 1992. These funds will be used to purchase scientific texts and other learning materials for schools throughout the NWT.

Mr. Speaker, this calendar was inspired because the women have been rather upset by a very macho

article that appeared in a national magazine showing Marlborough Country type men sitting on heavy machinery, looking across the tundra with visions of great wealth. So they decided, instead of writing an

article of outrage to the editor, they would produce their own calendar. This calendar contains people like: "Wildcat Wanda," who is sitting with her packsack; "Pahoehoe Pattie," who is sitting on a float of a float plane; "Kimberlite Kate," who is also on a piece of heavy machinery wearing a hard hat; "Polymetallic Pam; and, "Geophysical Jennifer." I won't go through the whole calendar because Members should really get this calendar for themselves and see what I consider to be a wonderful statement about women, by women, and the statement is so powerful. I wish people would do it more instead of being outraged.

They should use humour to make a point, which is wonderfully stated in this calendar. Thank you.

---Applause

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"diamonds In The Rough," Women In The Mining Trade Calendar

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 399

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Lewis . Mr. Lewis , I think today you are an honorary "diamond in the rough." Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Gargan .

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Spruce Hen Observations And Comparisons To Aboriginal People

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 399

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I will try to use humour to make a point. Mr. Speaker, when I was driving back to Yellowknife from one of my weekend trips, on November 29, it suddenly hit me -- a spruce hen, that is.

---Laughter

I would like to assure the Members that I wasn't speeding and it was definitely the chicken's fault. Mr. Speaker, they do considerably less damage to your vehicle than a bison. As I continued on my way, I got to thinking about this spruce hen and I had this sudden inspiration. Mr. Speaker, the spruce hen is a strange bird. As we all know, they are members of the grouse family of birds and are not the smartest in the world. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, when you ring or cut off the necks of these birds, they will keep going because they are not smart enough to realize they are dead.

---Laughter

Some people have even speculated that if someone cut off my head I would continue talking.

---Laughter

Mr. Speaker, spruce hens are grey and white in colour and, from a distance, look like they might be eligible for affirmative action. The interesting thing about them is once you clean them, you never know what colour the meat is going to be or what they will taste like. As we all know, Mr. Speaker, these birds eat spruce needles and store them in a little pouch in their throat for late-night snack purposes. They also eat gravel to aid in their digestion, so they taste gravelly.

Lately, Mr. Speaker, some of these chickens are on the chip seal portion of the highway between Yellowknife and Hay River, so they have this unique northern/southern taste, the sprucey, tarry kind. Mr. Speaker, the reason I am going on about these spruce hens is I am trying to use them as a symbol for one of my favourite causes, the gradual assimilation of native culture by the overpowering influence of Euro-Canadians. Over the last ten years, I have sometimes wondered if I have been successful in getting my point across.

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Spruce Hen Observations And Comparisons To Aboriginal People

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 399

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Gargan , your allotted time has elapsed.

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Spruce Hen Observations And Comparisons To Aboriginal People

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 399

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to continue my statement.

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Spruce Hen Observations And Comparisons To Aboriginal People

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 400

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Gargan .

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Spruce Hen Observations And Comparisons To Aboriginal People

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 400

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, honourable Members. Mr. Speaker, spruce hen are dark on the outside, but after cleaning the meat can be red or white. So, for the purpose of my statement, I'm going to call the red meat chickens, "Indian chickens," and the white meat chickens, "white chickens." You can never tell by looking at one of these birds what colour the meat will be on the inside. Mr. Speaker, as an expert on wildlife, I know that when you simmer an Indian chicken long enough, the meat will turn white.

The chicken doesn't stand alone, Mr. Speaker, in this case. There is also Indian pork that turns to pork chops and also the Indian calf that turns to veal. Mr. Speaker, my people are a lot like the spruce hen in this respect. They are in this great melting pot, being overwhelmed by white cultural influence, at the detriment of their own culture.

Mr. Speaker, the pot is boiling and the Indian chickens are getting well-done. We may not be able to put out the fire under the pot. Mr. Speaker, I urge this government to support programs, like the DCI's healing program I spoke about earlier this week, programs that encourage cultural awareness amongst aboriginal people. It is a proven fact, Mr. Speaker, that people who have pride in their heritage and pride in themselves are less of a strain upon social programs. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause.

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Spruce Hen Observations And Comparisons To Aboriginal People

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 400

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Gargan . Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Whitford .

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Northern Heritage Column In The Mackenzie Times Newspaper

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 400

Tony Whitford

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it is quite rare that I look forward to reading newspapers or getting a newspaper, but the Mackenzie Times published in Fort Simpson is an exception. Not so much for the news it contains or the editorial comments that are, in themselves, okay, as the issue warrants but, Mr. Speaker, I always look forward to the back page of the Mackenzie Times. There is a column entitled, "Northern Heritage." The editor, Joe Mercredi, who is originally from Fort Smith, is a product of a very colourful career culminating in the editorship of a newspaper, among other things.

He has managed to capture the true essence of a northern history recount. I, and many readers were born and raised here, in the north, and grew up at a time when great changes were happening here and abroad. The problem at that time was, unlike today when events can occur anywhere in the world and we hear of those events almost instantaneously through our communications network, we did not know what was going on. About 40 or 50 years ago, when I was growing up, it took months to get news and the news was in bits and pieces here and there. It was difficult to link those things together given our communications at the time.

The Northern Heritage column brings much of the northern history together in a series of articles recounting those events. Each week names bring back a flood of memories: the old steamboats; the Royal Canadian Corps signals; the Hudson's Bay; and, the church. But, by far the most interesting articles I read, which really plucked away at my heart strings, have been the articles on the residential schools that Mr. Mercredi seems to have gleaned from a number of books and, of course, the grey nuns. This is the latest

article that has been featured in this column.

It goes back many, many years, back into...

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Northern Heritage Column In The Mackenzie Times Newspaper

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 400

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Whitford , your allotted time has elapsed.

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Northern Heritage Column In The Mackenzie Times Newspaper

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 400

Tony Whitford

Yellowknife South

I seek unanimous consent to conclude, Mr. Speaker.

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Northern Heritage Column In The Mackenzie Times Newspaper

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 400

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Whitford .

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Northern Heritage Column In The Mackenzie Times Newspaper

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 400

Tony Whitford

Yellowknife South

Thank you, colleagues, Mr. Speaker. It recounts the history of the grey nuns, from the time they were formed in Quebec. It describes their history of the provinces and, eventually, their activities in the territories, here. Sadly, the articles will probably conclude with an

article that will say how few of this very distinguished group of young women are left, who were such a powerful influence on people of my generation. I recognize many of the faces in the pictures that accompany these articles. It is quite refreshing.

Just to conclude, Mr. Speaker, this column seems to have really captured the essence of northern history and recounts it from a different perspective. I think we need to see more of this, before history is lost. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Northern Heritage Column In The Mackenzie Times Newspaper

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 400

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Whitford . Item 3, Members' statements. Mrs. Marie-Jewell .

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Absence Of Ministers In The House

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 400

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to comment on Ministers' absences from this Legislature. Mr. Speaker, since the opening on November 17, there have been only three days when all Ministers have been available to this House. Although the Cabinet may believe all of these absences were necessary, I would like to advise that it has been noted by Members that the working of the House has been seriously hindered by the absences of Ministers.

Some of these absences could have been handled in a different manner, ensuring that the work of this House continued at a steady pace. It has impeded the ability of this House to proceed with the review of the budget as originally planned. On behalf of the Ordinary Members' Caucus, I would like to ask that Ministers make every effort to be in attendance at all proceedings of the House in order that we might expeditiously complete the business of the House and better serve the people of the territories. Thank you.

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Absence Of Ministers In The House

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 401

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mrs. Marie-Jewell . Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Morin .

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Further Return To Question 177-12(4): Maintenance Worker For Sanikiluaq

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 401

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Pudlat on December 2, 1993, about Public Works and Services maintenance positions in Sanikiluaq. The department has two positions in Sanikiluaq, a power plant operator/supervisor and a settlement maintainer.

The power plant operator/maintenance supervisor position in Sanikiluaq has been vacant for five months. The department is now operating the plant through contracted services. Responsibility for the operation of the Sanikiluaq power plant is scheduled to be transferred to the NWT Power Corporation in April, 1994. The NWT Power Corporation will be hiring a power plant operator who will be replacing the department's contracted services. The department did not want to staff a position that is scheduled to be transferred to another organization.

The settlement maintainer position has been vacant since the end of May, 1993. A Sanikiluaq resident was hired on a casual basis, for June and July. A plumber with the department, in Igloolik, handled maintenance responsibilities until mid-September. Since then, the department has contracted with a Sanikiluaq company, J T Ann Construction, for maintenance services. Two staffing competitions have been held. The first was unsuccessful. The second competition has just recently closed and the results should be known shortly. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Further Return To Question 177-12(4): Maintenance Worker For Sanikiluaq

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 401

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Morin . Item 4, returns to oral questions. Madam Premier .

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Further Return To Question 82-12(4): Review Of Mining Activities And Developments

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 401

Nellie Cournoyea

Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I have a Return to Oral Question asked by Mr. Ng on November 24.

Mr. Speaker, mineral development in the NWT has the potential to provide significant opportunities for training and employment of northern residents, for new business development and new public infrastructure.

We must work in partnership with the industry, aboriginal organizations, our communities and the federal government to remove barriers and secure commitments so that benefits flow not only from new projects, but also from ongoing exploration and production activities.

These and many other issues will be addressed in a comprehensive NWT mineral strategy, which is presently being prepared and will be available for public consultation in the very near future.

Mining can be a very uncertain business. Projects may or may not be built, or could be delayed many years. The actions we take, in relation to potential projects, must therefore be compatible with their timing and status.

For mining projects which have proceeded to the advanced exploration and feasibility study stage, such as diamond properties and Izok Lake, infrastructure issues must be addressed at an early stage, due to their long lead times necessary. Led by the Minister of Transportation , we have devoted considerable effort to raise awareness of, and support for, construction of a road to link our existing road system to new mining properties and the proposed port near Coppermine.

The Department of Energy, Mines and Resources and the NWT Power Corporation have been working with mining companies for a number of months, on studies to identify sites for new hydroelectric facilities. A study has also been completed on the possible use of oil from the Mackenzie Delta for these new projects.

Ongoing efforts to increase literacy and encourage residents to return to school are vitally important to ensuring that northerners benefit from new employment opportunities. The government will also be investigating the feasibility of transportation subsidies to offset higher costs of travel for workers who live in remote communities. In order to assist us in making decisions on investing for new jobs, the Department of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources has commissioned a study on the financial benefits the GNWT receives as a result of new jobs being created in the mining industry.

The planning and implementation of training programs needs to track the status of potential new projects, depending on whether they are at advanced exploration, the feasibility study stage or construction and operation. For proposals such as Izok Lake, we have completed the necessary advance work to assess the skills of potential workers in the Kitikmeot communities to refine the actual job profiles. The actual training programs are being developed through Arctic College.

With several properties now being bulk sampled for diamonds, work on skills assessment and job profiles for diamond projects in the Lac de Gras area will need to start up in the new year.

Prior to construction of a new mine, a training package with the new operator needs to be finalized. For example, discussions will begin shortly on a training package for the Colomac Mine.

A benefits agreement must be entered into, between a mining company and the relevant aboriginal organizations or our government, prior to the start-up of a new mine. The GNWT has provided funding to the Kitikmeot Inuit Association to support their negotiations for the critically important IIBA with Metall Mining Corporation for the Izok Lake project.

Arrangements on business opportunities would be captured in a benefits agreement for a new project. A study on strategies to improve NWT business opportunities related to the ongoing mining and exploration activity in the NWT was planned for completion last summer, but was delayed due to several unforseen problems. We expect it to be available by January, at the latest. The Department of Economic Development and Tourism is also planning to establish an office to handle industrial benefits from major projects.

We are pursuing the devolution of responsibilities for minerals. Devolution will enable us to obtain a share of the revenues from mining activities, will give us legislative powers over the management of territorial benefits and the ability to more effectively encourage and promote increased mining activity for the long-term benefit of northerners.

Mr. Speaker, a great deal of work is being done to ensure that benefits from mining activities accrue to northerners. This covers some of the highlights. I will also be tabling a paper about our overall approach to mining. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 82-12(4): Review Of Mining Activities And Developments

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 402

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Madam Premier . Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Nerysoo .

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Further Return To Question 182-12(4): Consultation On Child Day Care Policy

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 402

Richard Nerysoo

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is a return to an oral question that was asked by Mr. Charles Dent , on December 2, 1993, regarding the child day care symposium delegate selection.

Eighty-six delegates from across the Northwest Territories participated in the recent child day care symposium held in Yellowknife on September 24 to 26, 1993.

Licensed child care programs, child day care committees and other interest groups were each invited to select one representative to attend the symposium. To ensure representation from every community, invitations were sent to the hamlet offices where there were no licensed child day care programs or active child day care committees.

A comprehensive report of the proceedings is currently being printed and will be forwarded to each delegate. As well, all delegates will be receiving -- and MLAs have received -- the

summary of recommendations from the symposium. These recommendations will assist the department in the development of a child day care policy.

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Further Return To Question 182-12(4): Consultation On Child Day Care Policy

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 402

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo . Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions. Item 6, written questions. Item 7, returns to written questions. Item 8, replies to opening address. Item 9, petitions. Item 10, reports of standing and special committees. Item 11, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 12, tabling of documents. Mr. Allooloo .

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Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 402

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table, Tabled Document 45-12(4), comparison of disputed adjusted bids which shows the unsuccessful bidder, Simon Merkosak, should have been awarded the contract if the proper adjustments were used in applying the northern and local business criteria of the business incentive policy. Thank you.

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Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 402

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 12, tabling of documents. Mr. Ningark .

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Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 402

John Ningark

Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table, Tabled Document 46-12(4), a letter from one of my constituents in Gjoa Haven, regarding the social assistance food allowance rate reduction. Thank you.

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Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 402

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 12, tabling of documents. Item 13, notices of motion. Mr. Gargan .

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Motion 3-12(4): Amendments To The Hours Of Service Regulations And Large Vehicle Control Regulations

Item 13: Notices Of Motion

Page 402

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I give notice that on Monday, December 6, I will move the following motion.

I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Kitikmeot , that the Minister of Transportation immediately consult truckers and workers in the construction industry with a view to amending the hours of service regulations and the large vehicles control regulations so as to expand the hours that may be worked by truckers employed in the construction industry;

And further, consultation should also be held with a view to remove the requirement for an overweight permit for those truckers operating in the geographic area of a construction site.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Motion 3-12(4): Amendments To The Hours Of Service Regulations And Large Vehicle Control Regulations

Item 13: Notices Of Motion

Page 402

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Gargan . Item 13, notices of motion. Item 14, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Mr. Nerysoo .

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Bill 5: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 5, 1992-93

Item 14: Notices Of Motions For First Reading Of Bills

Page 402

Richard Nerysoo

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Monday, December 6, 1993, I shall move that Bill 5, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 5, 1992-93, be read for the first time.

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Bill 5: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 5, 1992-93

Item 14: Notices Of Motions For First Reading Of Bills

Page 402

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo . Item 14, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Mr. Nerysoo .

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Bill 6: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94

Item 14: Notices Of Motions For First Reading Of Bills

Page 402

Richard Nerysoo

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Monday, December 6, 1993, I shall move that Bill 6, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94, be read for the first time.

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Bill 6: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1993-94

Item 14: Notices Of Motions For First Reading Of Bills

Page 402

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo . Item 14, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 15, motions. Item 16, first reading of bills. Item 17, second reading of bills. Item 18, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: Minister's Statement 3-12(4), Sessional Statement; Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1994-95 ; Bill 2,

An Act to Amend the Charter Communities Act ; Bill 3,

An Act to Amend the Cities, Towns and Villages Act ; Bill 4,

An Act to Amend the Hamlets Act ; Committee Report 3-12(4), Review of the 1994-95 Capital Estimates; Committee Report 5-12(4), Report on Tabled Document 145-12(3): Legislative Action Paper on the Workers' Compensation Act; Committee Report 7-12(4), Standing Committee on Public Accounts Report on the Committee Review of DeLury and Associates Limited Contracts; Committee Report 8-12(4), Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commissions Final Report on the Elimination of the Highway

Transport Board; Committee Report 9-12(4), Final Report on Arctic College; and, Tabled Document 11-12(4), Report from the Fort Providence/Cambridge Bay Strategic Planning Workshops. With the authority given to me by Motion 1-12(4) regarding sitting hours, I will put the Assembly into committee of the whole, until the committee is prepared to report, with Mr. Ningark in the chair.

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 403

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. The committee will now come to order. When we concluded yesterday we were in general comments of the NWT Housing Corporation. What is the wish of the committee? Member for Thebacha .

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 403

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, we would like to address the Department of Renewable Resources. If we are completed, we would like to look at the NWT Power Corporation. Since we have noted Mr. Pollard is back, we would like to get into the Department of Health. Thank you.

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 403

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Do we agree that we will stand down the Housing Corporation and go to Renewable Resources, NWT Power Corporation and the Department of Health, in that order? Do you agree?

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 403

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1994-95

Committee Report 3-12(4), Review of the 1994-95 Capital Estimates

Department Of Renewable Resources

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 403

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Does the Minister of Renewable Resources have opening remarks? Mr. Kakfwi .

Introductory Remarks

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 403

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have introductory remarks for the committee. Mr. Speaker, the proposed budget for the department's 1994-95 capital estimates is similar to previous years. The proposed items are the usual requests for equipment, renovations to existing office complexes, warehouses for storage, facilities for forest fire operations and construction of new offices where office space cannot be leased.

Facility conditions are evaluated based on reports and standards from the Department of Public Works and Services. The remaining capital items are to replace or purchase equipment, usually for field or research staff in communities. The public expects us to work with people out on the land. Without snowmobiles, boats and motors, it is difficult to provide departmental services to these people or to conduct studies. I welcome the comments of the Standing Committee on Finance and look forward to discussing the capital estimates. Thank you.

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 403

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Antoine , do you have opening remarks from the Standing Committee on Finance?

Standing Committee On Finance Comments

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 403

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On Renewable Resources, the committee noted that the department is planning to spend $458,000, in the fiscal year 1994-95, for mobile equipment in all regions. The project substantiations provided to the committee show a long inventory of snowmobiles, ATVs, boats and outboard motors. Many of these requests appear to duplicate those made in the previous year. When questioned by the committee, the Minister advised that the department relies on replacement standards developed by Public Works and Services to replace mobile equipment for field operations personnel.

Committee Members feel that the department could cut back on expenditures for mobile equipment without hampering the efficiency of the department. One means of achieving savings is to lease locally-owned equipment as necessary. The committee also believes that the process used in disposing of capital equipment can be improved. Therefore, the committee makes the following recommendation.

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Committee Motion 49-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 18, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 403

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

I move that the committee recommends that the Department of Renewable Resources reduce its mobile equipment inventory in all regions. This reduction in inventory and the related savings in capital dollars should be demonstrated in 1994-95 and subsequent fiscal years.

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Committee Motion 49-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 18, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 403

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Antoine . The motion is in order. To the motion. There is no quorum. Thank you. There is a motion on the floor by the Standing Committee on Finance.

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Committee Motion 49-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 18, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 403

An Hon. Member

Question.

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Committee Motion 49-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 18, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 403

The Chair

John Ningark

Question is being called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried.

Mr. Antoine .

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Committee Motion 49-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 18, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 403

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

In last year's report, the committee recommended that the department's video equipment budget of $10,000 be removed and that the activity be privatized. This item was removed for the fiscal year 1993-94, but the capital budget for the fiscal year 1994-95 shows proposed expenditures of $115,000. The activity has, obviously, not been privatized. The committee is not convinced that it is necessary

to expend government funds to invest in video production facilities. There are private sector resources capable of providing the required service, most likely at a lower cost.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 403

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

I move that this committee recommends that the funding identified for video equipment for the fiscal year 1994-95 be deleted, pending a comprehensive cost-benefit analysis of all feasible options for acquiring the required services. The options considered should include the following, as a minimum:

-in-house productions;

-development of a government-wide video production facility; and,

-use of private sector resources to provide the required service.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 404

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Antoine . The motion is in order. To the motion.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 404

An Hon. Member

Question.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 404

The Chair

John Ningark

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Continue, Mr. Antoine .

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 404

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That concludes the Standing Committee on Finance's report. Thank you.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 404

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Antoine . General comments. Would the honourable Minister like to bring in his witnesses? Mr. Minister, for the record, would you introduce your witness please.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 404

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have with me the deputy minister of Renewable Resources, Mr. Joe Handley. Mr. Rick Feil, the director of finance for the department, will be joining us shortly.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 404

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Minister. We are on page 10-7 of the capital estimates. General comments. Mr. Koe .

General Comments

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 404

Fred Koe

Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to make some general comments in the area of environmental protection. Earlier this week, my colleague from the Kitikmeot, mentioned some of the contaminants under the sea, and the inability of the federal government and our government to determine what's there and whether they are contaminating the water.

I have other concerns in terms of a lot of the other issues from pulp mill effluents, that come down the rivers that feed into the Mackenzie and, subsequently, flow downstream into the Beaufort Sea. I know this department is responsible for the administration of the Environmental Protection Act and the Pesticides Act. I'm just wondering what kinds of things the department is doing in terms of enforcing and looking after the areas under the Environmental Protection Act.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 404

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 404

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

The deputy minister will take the question.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 404

The Chair

John Ningark

Mr. Deputy Minister.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 404

Handley

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will break my area into three main areas. First of all, on the Mackenzie River basin. We have been working with the other provinces that share the basin, BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, the Yukon and the federal government, to come up with a trans-boundary water agreement that will put some control on the kind of pollutants that end up in that water system. Those negotiations have been going on for basically 12 years now. We're reaching the point where the provinces are in agreement with us and I believe the federal government is onside.

We will have a trans-boundary water agreement in place, hopefully by late next spring. That agreement will be a basis of understanding on both water quality and water quantity in the Mackenzie. Of particular concern to us are the pollutants coming out of the pulp mills. In terms of ocean dumping and the contaminants in the ocean, all of the water in the ocean is under federal responsibility. We continue to monitor what is happening, and in January we will be receiving a report from the federal government on pollutants and other matter that is in the ocean that the federal government knows about.

Our role there is simply to monitor and pressure the government to do whatever we can, in terms of ensuring that material that is potentially harmful doesn't end up in the ocean. The position of our government and our department is basically, no ocean dumping. We don't feel it is necessary to dump anything untreated into the ocean. Last year, there was an issue of scrap metal and I think that issue clearly outlined our position.

The third area of responsibility has to do with Quebec Hydro's plan to build a large dam on the Great Whale River. Whenever water is dammed up like that there is a creation of some pollution that ends up in the waters. In this case, it would probably be mercury from flooded forests. We are working with Quebec Hydro and with the federal government to try to come to an agreement that there will be a thorough assessment done of the impact of that project on Sanikiluaq and the Belcher Islands, as well as the whole Hudson Bay, before it goes ahead.

Again, we're negotiating that one. We haven't come to any final terms in terms of how the assessment will be done or what the guidelines will be. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 404

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Koe .

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 404

Fred Koe

Inuvik

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. Your response raises a whole slew of other questions. You mentioned Quebec Hydro, and on our back step there is tremendous hydro development

in the Snare Lake area. I'm just curious, what type of work are you doing before these developments take place, such as base studies before the hydro dam is put into place. One of the concerns is that we don't seem to have any baseline information so that once a project is developed or once a contamination occurs, we have something to measure the impact of that contamination. I'm just curious, what are you are doing as a department to investigate potential hydro developments in the Dogrib country?

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister. Mr. Handley.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

Handley

Mr. Chairman, we have not done anything yet in terms of collecting baseline data, specifically for the proposed Snare River hydro dam. As this project gets close to reality, we will be collecting the baseline data that would be necessary.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Koe .

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

Fred Koe

Inuvik

The same type of question goes for the water contamination and pollutants that flow into the Mackenzie River basin. I know when I was in the negotiating business, that was a major concern of people who were downstream from where the contamination seemingly occurs. Neither government, federal or territorial, could accurately say that this was there before and this is what is there today. All we know is that our fish species are being contaminated and, in some areas, water doesn't taste the same as it used to. People in the communities notice these things so they're concerned.

Scientifically, no one can say for certain this is what is happening. I'd just like to ask, again, what are you doing in that area at this time?

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

The Chair

John Ningark

Mr. Handley.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

Handley

Mr. Chairman, the main activity we're participating in right now is what is called the northern rivers basin study which is a federally-funded study of northern rivers, primarily in Alberta, looking at all pollutants in the river but specifically at the pulp mill impact. We have a fair bit of information right now on dioxins and toxicants which have both come from the pulp mills or, possibly, from some flooding which happened.

We continue to monitor it and are doing some studies. We, of course, feel there could be more done. However, we're doing whatever we can within the resources we have. Thank you.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Koe .

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

Fred Koe

Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. How exactly is this monitoring done? Do you have equipment? What type of testing are you doing? How do you determine levels of contaminants and dioxins in water? Do you have a science lab somewhere or do you use federal labs, or whatever, in other places?

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Handley.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

Handley

We're relying on the federal government, at this point, to provide the equipment and to do most of the analysis themselves, although our people do participate at times. They have the equipment. Also, the pulp mills have some equipment and do a fair bit of testing themselves, in terms of the pollutants from their specific operation. We don't have that kind of equipment ourselves.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Koe .

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

Fred Koe

Inuvik

I find that interesting because, obviously, the pulp mills are going to be a bit biased on the type of information they release and, in some cases, I would assume the federal government too because of the amounts of subsidies they may put into some of these businesses to keep them going.

The reason for my line of questioning, Mr. Chairman, is that there is $25,000 going to be allocated for, I assume, safety. It says tools and equipment but, in your mandate, the division requires safety and other technical equipment. I'm just curious, how much safety and technical equipment can we buy for $25,000? When I was younger, I worked for Fisheries and Oceans and I know the types of equipment they need to analyze dioxins and toxicants in water and air are in the millions of dollars, so $25,000 is not very much. We're responsible, as a government, for these areas. I would have assumed there would be more allocations for technical equipment to be bought.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

Handley

Mr. Chairman, the only equipment we're proposing to buy this year is air sampling equipment which will be used for the Giant Mine emissions, Snare Hydro and so on. It's a mobile facility, trailer type facility.

Inland water is still the responsibility of the federal government. I suppose, until that becomes our responsibility, we wouldn't be investing heavily in water sampling equipment. The federal government does have a fairly extensive water lab and we have to rely, at this point, on their analysis. We do participate and monitor what they are doing, though.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Ng .

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I recognize that it's currently a federal responsibility for the waters. You've said that, obviously, there are concerns and there are no current ocean dumping sites. I pointed out in my statement a couple of days ago, that it's also recognized that in the past there have been ocean dumping sites. Are those sites now identified? I had posed that question to the Minister that day, but he wasn't quite sure, so I'm just trying to get that clarified.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister. Mr. Handley.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

Handley

Mr. Chairman, the federal government is doing an identification inventory of those sites and so on. We expect to receive a report on ocean disposals and so on, in January, 1994.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 405

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

Is the federal government being pursued for an initiative to clean up the sites they know of?

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

Handley

Yes, Mr. Chairman. Under the environment protection strategy, there is a provision for the federal government to clean up the sites. They are doing them. I don't have the order in which they're doing them with me, but they have a list and an order of the sequence in which they're doing it.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

So, currently, obviously, they have undertaken to identify some of these sites and you have some information available. Could you make that available to myself?

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

Handley

Yes we could.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. General comments. I have Mr. Gargan .

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, I will allow Mrs. Marie-Jewell to go ahead of me.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

The Chair

John Ningark

Mrs. Marie-Jewell .

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to ask a couple of questions with regard to Renewable Resources recognizing the commitment of the government to build a tanker base facility in Fort Smith. I'd like to ask the Minister whether the size of the tanker base has yet been determined by the government, and whether the comprehensive fire management review study has been completed. Thank you.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, I just want to ask Members to accept that unless they want me to personally try to answer these questions, I'm much more comfortable in referring all the questions to the deputy minister. I have great interest in this department and have been getting briefed, but the level of confidence is heavily on the side of the deputy minister, at this time. Just to make sure the answers are good answers for the Members, I will be deferring all the responses to the deputy minister. Thank you.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Your comments are noted. Mr. Deputy Minister.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

Handley

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The size of the hangar has not yet been determined. That will be determined once the analysis of the fire program review has been completed.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Last year, during the budget process, I asked when we determined this review to be completed. I recognize the review is under O and M, Mr. Chairman. However, the tanker base -- whether it's going to be through an O and M lease or whatever -- is a capital infrastructure. I'd like to ask the deputy minister when he anticipates the study will be completed, in order to determine the size. I think that's the major stumbling block now that's holding up proceedings of construction of that tanker base. I'd like to know if he can confirm that. Thank you.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

Handley

Mr. Chairman, the consultant has finished his work. We are doing some further analysis within the department. I expect the review will be totally completed within the next month to six weeks.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

During the last session the previous Minister made a commitment that that review would be completed by the end of May. Recognizing that it won't be completed for another month to six weeks, you are looking at a good ten months later than you initially anticipated. Would it be appropriate to anticipate, because of the completion of this study, that has placed an impediment on determining the size? Therefore, progress on that tanker base being built is very slow. Can I receive comment on that, Mr. Chairman? Thank you.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

Handley

Mr. Chairman, it is impossible to design the hangar or decide the size of it, until we have the fire program review completed. It is slower than what we had anticipated. It has been a more complex task than we thought it would be.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

I am trying to find out when they would anticipate construction of this hangar. Thank you.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

Handley

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If everything went well and we were able to begin planning the design for the hangar by February, then construction could be started within a matter of three or four months, although DPW could tell me better. But I expect it would be somewhere in that range, to finish the design and enter into a contract with someone to build it.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 406

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is, providing everything goes well. If the study is not completed until February, and they don't anticipate problems, you will probably look at three months from February for any type of construction. You are looking, again, into the next fire season. We have tried to say, each year as we pass the fire season, many of those benefits keep going to the south, as opposed to staying in the north. Once the study is completed, then the whole proposal package has to not only go to DPW for construction, but through the Cabinet process for the funding

required. At the earliest date, when would they anticipate proceeding with construction for this tanker base?

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

Handley

Mr. Chairman, I think the earliest date we could look at would be some time this coming summer. That is, assuming there are no major problems and we would get supplementary money to build the hangar, because we don't have the money in this budget.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

It has been noted there is no money in this budget. It has also been noted that the process in getting this construction started has been extremely slow. As well, the government has made a commitment. Is the Minister aware of any indication of the government reneging on that commitment?

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Chairman. The commitment has been to see this project through to completion. I am not sure it is not unconditional. There are probably some general conditions attached to this project going ahead. But, at this time, I don't see any major problems. As a government, we are trying to be rational about the approach we are taking. The review is happening, there are discussions going on with DPW, in trying to figure out the design we need and the type of use this facility is going to have. It is going to take some time to determine the amount of money we need to budget for it.

I understand the Member's desire to get this project dealt with speeded up, but everyone is trying the best they can under the conditions. Thank you.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

The Chair

John Ningark

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

I believe it is the intention to try to get this project moved, but I just want to make the comment that it is certainly my intention to attempt...The academic building is going to proceed with construction after April 1, in Fort Smith. At the same time, if all goes well, as Mr. Handley stated, they would be looking at construction early in the summer or late spring for the tanker base.

I am trying to avoid having to import resource people to construct these facilities. We want to maximize as many local people as we can. It is noted the way the government is planning we would not be able to totally utilize only local labour. In order to try to keep the dollars and local labour fully busy throughout the season, these types of projects should be addressed accordingly so you can avoid bringing in southern resource people to build these facilities. I am somewhat concerned that you have two major projects going on simultaneously,

whereas this past year, the social assistance in my community has probably skyrocketed compared to any other community. Therefore, the poor planning of the government is being reflected once again. I am concerned about that. That is one thing the Cabinet should look at. That is the purpose of community consultation and planning. I just wanted to make that comment, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Gargan .

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, last year, if memory serves me right, there was some money identified for Fort Providence. I thought that was approved. I see the deputy minister shaking his head, so maybe I don't have my head on right. Could I get some clarification on that?

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Handley.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

Handley

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We did have money in the budget last year to do some renovations to an office building, in fact, I think it may have been to build a new office. But we received information that the town was looking at a new plan. At this time, we were asked not to proceed with it, effectively by Mr. Gargan , until this plan was resolved. We have been in contact with MACA and the community, and have asked them to let us know whenever the new plans for the town are finalized. At that point we'll decide what we're going to do. In the meantime we have patched up the existing building to make do.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Gargan .

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that, but I still don't know whether that whole community planning process has been resolved. I have copies of the maps where they have designated certain areas as residential areas and commercial areas. I would prefer that the lots along the river banks be designated as residential areas. As long as the community is resolving that, we will have to wait and see.

The other thing, too, Mr. Chairman, is under the new tax law, the reserve, although it has exemptions in some areas these wouldn't apply any more to reserve residents who are on payrolls outside the reserve. It is still the same for establishments on the reserve who have payrolls going out of the reserve. I wanted to mention that. I realize the forestry operation is now in Hay River. In order to be tax exempt in any way, they have to be physically on the reserve.

I believe the department is now looking at a seven year contract with Evergreen Forestry. I appreciate that. Perhaps in your plans you may want to look at relocating so that the operation is actually in the town. And, of course, it will cost the government less because if tax doesn't apply, perhaps the operation would also cost less. Just give it some thought. Kakisa is requesting that they have a special crew there, too. That is under O and M. It has been agreed to by Evergreen, I understand. Just give it your best. Thanks.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Deputy Minister.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

Handley

I have no comment. I think the advice is good.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

The Chair

John Ningark

General comments. Mr. Gargan .

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 407

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

With regard to labs, we have Renewable Resources labs in Fort Providence mainly for testing bison. Providence is an area where you really should have some kind of lab to test water quality, to indicate, for the rest of the communities down the river whether the water is safe. That

has been agreed. I realize that Providence would be the first one hit if contaminants were to be detected. I would hope that in your long-term plans it will be planned for. It is not good enough to have the federal government testing.

You say you monitor, but how much monitoring do you do? I just don't know how you can have a person there 100 per cent of the time watching the testing, but not really knowing how the results of those tests are determined. If we do have a person who knows how to determine the results of those tests then we should keep that person up here to do our own monitoring on water quality.

Again, this is a concern. I think Fred mentioned deformed fish. I mentioned that too. We also see a lot of dead fish in the river. I can't answer for the fish, but I know that something is definitely wrong because those fish cannot just up and die without answers. That concern will be expressed every year, I suppose, and it is going to start being expressed increasingly by other Members along the river I am sure.

I did hear on the 8:30 news yesterday, about these fish being caught in Fort Good Hope, too. Their feeling is that it is from the oil field. People are raising concerns. In order for us to get some confident answers, we cannot keep relying on other research labs to do our tests for us. I think we should hire our own people and start doing it ourselves and ensure the levels that are determined are the actual levels.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 408

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 408

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, it is my understanding that the department is continuously pressuring the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and the Department of the Environment, to do the work they are responsible for, such as monitoring the quality of water and doing testing of fish. That is their responsibility. There is a down side to getting too involved in that we start spending money in areas that are actually the responsibility of a different government.

We could probably give Members an idea of how much it would cost us if we should some day get into the business of testing water quality in some capacity and doing testing of fish. I think if that's what Members want we could ask the staff to give us an idea of how much it would cost to do the type of work that the Member is suggesting and give the information to Members.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 408

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Gargan .

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 408

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

The other thing, too, because of the great resource we have, the reserve requested the department to see whether they might be able to use Swot Lake for cultural programs. I don't think the department has supported that. Swot Lake is used sometimes in the summer, but it is not used all the time. In the last several years it hasn't been used and even if it is used it is in a very limited way.

Swot Lake was first established to look at fires around that area. Now there is less fire in our area, but we have about eight buildings that aren't used. We hope that you would look at having those facilities used, if not for cultural programs then at least open it during the winter months so that other organizations can use it. Even schools in Hay River, for example, should be able to have trips out there.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 408

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Deputy Minister.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 408

Handley

Mr. Chairman, Swot Lake is what we call a satellite base. It's a camp we build for use by fire crews when there's a fire in that area. The amount of use, of course, as Mr. Gargan said, depends on the number of fires or the chances of fires in that area. We would be certainly willing to make that facility available for groups of students, for example, who want to go out there, provided it was available if our fire crew needed it. We would require first call on it.

I had a meeting with the deputy ministers of Education and Social Services recently, and we're looking at those kinds of options to jointly develop plans for camps to get young people out into the bush.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 408

The Chair

John Ningark

Qujannamiik. Mr. Gargan .

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 408

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, last year, or this fire season, the department has gone way over budget with regard to expenditures. One of the things fire tower operators in my own constituency noted, where there was a limited amount of fire, was a number of choppers that are flying around even though they have fire towers there. I think we really have to look at the establishment of more fire towers and fewer choppers. It's a lot easier on your own if you have fire towers, as opposed to choppers flying 16 hours a day to spot fires. I know fire tower operators are always saying to me, "What are those choppers doing? I'm already doing the job." But they still have choppers flying in their vicinity.

I know the Nahendeh Member isn't here, but last year Renewable Resources met in Fort Simpson and I was there for that meeting too. One of the requests they made, as part of their plans, was to look at fire towers being established in Wrigley, Sibbeston Hill, Redknife Hill and the Horn Mountains.

Those are different areas in which you might want to establish fire towers so you cut down on the amount...I'm certainly not trying to take away from the helicopter companies, but it seems to me that for the amount of costs we incurred this year, one of the things to consider is how you can most effectively deliver the programs in a given season without going overboard. At least with fire towers, you know. They operate from May to October, and you know how much it will cost to pay the person to stay there and the amount of chopper services they require every other week. I think those can be determined.

But you can't determine how many flying hours a chopper will work. Because of that you run into quite a large expenditure.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 408

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Once Mr. Gargan is finished with his general comments, we will take a short break. Mr. Gargan , do you have more questions? Okay? Thank you. We will take a break.

---SHORT RECESS

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 408

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. The committee will now come to order. Before the short break, we were on general comments. I had Mr. Pudlat and then Mr. Antoine . Mr. Pudlat .

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 409

Kenoayoak Pudlat

Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You had mentioned earlier that you would be working closely with the Quebec hydro project. I was happy to hear this, but I have a comment to make. One of the communities I represent is Sanikiluaq, and Sanikiluaq is pretty close to the communities that are going to be affected by the hydro project. I cannot tell you exactly what the location of the land is that I am concerned about it. I haven't seen it yet.

There has been some damage done to the land that I am referring to, however. When I visited the community of Sanikiluaq, some projects had gone ahead with regard to the hydro project. After these projects proceeded, geese were no longer landing in the area where they used to land in Sanikiluaq. Some geese have been found nearby that are dying because of the pollution from Great Whale River.

The people of the north depend very much on northern country food. They hunt northern wildlife. As the project proceeds I think there are going to be more communities and camps established near the hydro project. I understand that Great Whale River residents have been asked questions with regard to the hydro project. There were some studies done but Sanikiluaq was not included in these studies. There were questions that Sanikiluaq residents would have had many answers for the project topics.

If the hydro project in Great Whale River goes ahead and they establish tailings sites, I will be concerned about the wildlife habitat. I am afraid they will be exposed to contaminants. I understand this is being looked into. There is a feasibility study being done with regard to this. I am going to request that with the environmental studies that are being done, we are kept informed with regard to what is happening because I am very concerned about the project, the wildlife and our environment. Hopefully, the Minister understood my question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 409

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. As the Minister indicated earlier, he wants the deputy minister to respond to questions unless Members specifically request the Minister to answer the question. In that case, the Minister will endeavour to answer the question. If the Minister wishes to respond to the question, I'll leave it to his discretion. Mr. Minister.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 409

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The concern of the MLA for Sanikiluaq about the land and water around that area is one that this government took account of a couple of years ago when this issue first arose in the Legislature. The Member's concerns have been taken into account and the government has taken this project very seriously. At this time, there are a number of processes in place to look at the impact of this proposal from Quebec Hydro on the area.

One of the things that Quebec Hydro was asked to do was to look at the offshore issues and impacts that their project is going to have, for instance, in the area around Sanikiluaq and, generally, the area on the east side of Hudson's Bay and James Bay. The other thing that Quebec Hydro was asked to do was conduct a consultation program with Sanikiluaq. The company presented their environmental impact study this fall, in September. We've reviewed the study and are presently preparing to send letters to the federal Ministers involved with this to indicate our position.

We will be arguing that the document that Quebec Hydro has prepared is inadequate. It doesn't meet the minimum guidelines they were asked to meet. In short, we don't think they've done a very good job at all with their study and it should be redone and rewritten so there's more information on the impact that the project is going to have on Hudson's Bay and, specifically, on the Belcher Islands.

I understand that the people from Sanikiluaq will be taking the same position, since they too have reviewed the document and have expressed the same concerns as we have. The Nunavut Coalition of the Keewatin will also be taking the same approach. We've been working with these groups to make sure we're all aware of what we're doing, the things we're saying and to make sure there is some coordination in the approach we take. That's the information we have.

Once we received that study, we met with the Department of Renewable Resources, and Justice met with representatives from Sanikiluaq and the other two groups, Nunavut Tunngavik and the Nunavut Coalition of the Keewatin, in Montreal, recently to discuss the concerns. As I said, it was shared equally by all Members that the study was totally inadequate. Thank you.

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 409

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. I have Mr. Antoine .

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Committee Motion 50-12(4): To Adopt Recommendation 19, Carried

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 409

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My general comments to the Department of Renewable Resources are with regard to one part of the mandate of the department. Like many Members who spoke, my concern is the environmental protection measures. In my constituency we have two rivers joining. One is the Deh Cho, and a lot of