Debates of April 29th, 1999

This is page numbers 431 - 469 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was chairman .

Topics

Members Present

Item 1: Prayer

Progress In Education

Outstanding Volunteer Service Award

Small Boat Safety Awareness Program

Side Door Youth Drop-in Centre

Government Contracts For The Supply Of Goods And Services

Success Of St. Patrick's School To Work "bridges" Transition Program

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Pupil/teacher Ratio

Graduation Rate Increases

Additional Funding For Education Programs

Generation Of Additional Revenues

Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Cost-savings Measures

GNWT Purchasing Power

Development Corporation Expenditure Guidelines

Tabled Document 36-13(7): Letter From Hay River Parent Focus Group Regarding Education Issues

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Resurrecting And Priorizing The Northern Accord Proposal

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Item 22: Orders Of The Day

Members Present

Honourable Jim Antoine , Honourable Charles Dent , Mr. Erasmus , Mrs. Groenewegen , Mr. Henry , Honourable Stephen Kakfwi , Mr. Krutko , Honourable Michael Miltenberger , Mr. Ootes , Honourable Floyd Roland , Honourable Vince Steen .

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Oh, God, may your spirit and guidance be in us as we work for the benefit of all our people, for peace and justice in our land and for the constant recognition of the dignity and aspirations of those whom we serve. Amen.

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 431

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Ootes . Good afternoon. Orders of the day. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Miltenberger .

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Minister's Statement 52-13(7): Progress In Education

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 431

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, thanks to the work of the Minister's Forum on Education, the challenges facing our education system have been receiving a fairly high profile recently. As I have stated in this House, the issues raised in the forum report will be addressed to the extent that we can, within the current financial situation. We are looking at improvements now and in the future. As we work to improve the state of education, Mr.

Speaker, I wanted to bring a historical perspective of being involved in some way with education in the north since I was a young boy travelling by bus and DC3 to Fort Smith from Rae in the early 1960s. In the past 35 years there have been huge improvements in the quality of education and in the level of community control over education for their children. People are more aware and more involved in education and, as we saw with the Minister's forum, feel free to express their thoughts on what could be improved.

We have seen dramatic improvement in key success indicators. The number of graduates is up significantly. More students than ever are staying in school and completing more grades. More students than ever can stay at home to complete their schooling, which helps to maintain the support system of family and friends. Many people are furthering their education through Aurora College and preparing for the job opportunities around them. Adult basic education classes are full of people coming back to finish their education.

Mr. Speaker, there is no question there are serious issues to deal with in education. However, while we work to deal with these issues we cannot lose sight of the good work that is being done and has been done by many dedicated staff and parents. We cannot lose sight of the fact that, thanks to the Education Act passed in 1995, local education authorities have significant opportunities to tailor the delivery of education to best meet local needs.

As we try to make our education system even better, let us remember how far we have come and the tremendous potential we have to go even further, thanks to the dedication of students, parents, teachers and the many other individuals involved with education in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Minister's Statement 52-13(7): Progress In Education

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 431

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Ministers' statements. Mr. Steen .

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Minister's Statement 53-13(7): Outstanding Volunteer Service Award

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 431

Vince Steen

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce the recipient of the 1999 Outstanding Volunteer Service Award. Ms. Ann Kall of Yellowknife is being recognized for her extraordinary volunteer efforts to support public fire safety education in the NWT. Mr. Speaker, Ms. Kall was nominated for this award by both the NWT Fire Chiefs Association and the Yellowknife Fire Department. The award presentation was made this past weekend at the NWT Fire Chiefs Association's annual general meeting in Hay River. Ms. Kall received a personal plaque and a carving by Fort Smith artist, Sonny MacDonald. Ms.

Kall has been active in many safety programs. She wrote the Juvenile Fire-Setter Intervention Program handbook for use by fire departments. Ms. Kall also started the Play Safe, Be Safe Program in the NWT. This fire prevention program focuses on child care workers, teachers and children, ages three to five.

Ms. Kall also created the Risk Watch Program, which teaches injury prevention to children in elementary school. She volunteers to instruct many of these programs in northern communities. Ms. Kall is also involved in other children's safety programs, including abduction prevention and motor vehicle safety. Because of her deep commitment to children, Ms. Kall volunteers much of her personal and vacation time to promote children's safety. Mr. Speaker, I know that all Members join me in congratulating Ann Kall for her years of dedicated service which have made a difference in the lives of northerners, especially our children. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Minister's Statement 53-13(7): Outstanding Volunteer Service Award

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 431

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Ministers' statements. Mr. Steen .

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Minister's Statement 54-13(7): Small Boat Safety Awareness Program

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 431

Vince Steen

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today I would like to say a few words about the Small Boat Safety Awareness Program. This will be the fifth year that the Department of Transportation has delivered the program in the Northwest Territories on behalf of the Canadian Coast Guard. In 1999, the department will also continue to deliver the program in partnership with the Government of Nunavut.

The Small Boat Safety Awareness Program is a national public education initiative to promote safe recreational boating. The Department of Transportation takes a special interest in getting the program out to the communities because, year after year, the Northwest Territories has had the highest number of drowning fatalities per capita in Canada. The program involves the federal and territorial governments, and, more importantly, volunteer organizations in the communities.

The program's partners include departments of this government, the federal Department of National Defence, Royal Canadian Mounted Police detachments across the north, the Canadian Red Cross, the City of Yellowknife, the Fire Chiefs Association, the Canadian Rangers and its Youth Rangers Program, Coast Guard Auxiliaries, Chapters of Students Against Drinking and Driving and the Coroners Association.

The involvement of the Canadian Youth Against Impaired Driving has given the program a national dimension. Departmental staff recently made a presentation in Ottawa that won support for its combined anti-drinking driving and boating message across Canada. So far, three provinces have expressed interest in joining our program.

The Life Jacket Loaner Program is already available in the communities of Rae, Wrigley and Fort Simpson. This year it will be extended to include Tuktoyaktuk, Hay River, Lutselk'e, Aklavik, Deline, Paulatuk and Wha Ti. The success of the Small Boat Safety Awareness Program is measured by the interest communities show in having more involvement. Mr. Speaker, as the boating season gets underway, the Members will see more and more communities take the lead role in promoting water and boating safety. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Minister's Statement 54-13(7): Small Boat Safety Awareness Program

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 432

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Ootes .

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Member's Statement 141-13(7): Side Door Youth Drop-in Centre

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 432

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I recently had an opportunity last Saturday night to visit the Side Door Youth Drop-in Centre at the Anglican Church here in Yellowknife. It was a very busy Saturday night and on some weekends up to 100 youth frequent the drop-in centre. It is obvious that there is a lot of camaraderie and a lot of socializing between the youth. The large meeting room, Mr. Speaker, is set up with a pool table, stereo equipment, computers and a television. It is a relaxed environment and great for getting together, talking or playing a game of pool.

The Side Door program has been in operation as a non-profit society since October, 1995. It is largely run by volunteers and in-kind support. The Side Door is a place for teens to have fun and feel safe and get away from pressures. There is a policy of no alcohol and no drugs.

It is a known fact that many Yellowknife youth spend considerable amount of time on the streets. It is also recognized that the young people are one of neediest groups in our city. Their over-riding need is for rebuilding self-worth in many cases. That is not all youth, but, it is the case of many of these youths. There is a need for youth to have a safe and healthy place to meet and socialize with friends. Teenagers need a place where they are accepted for who they are. The Side Door is such a place. It provides a centre for youth to come and participate in youth-centred programming.

It provides a safe, friendly place for teens. It provides positive, healthy, caring role-models for youth who might otherwise have none. It provides a place to develop valuable life-skills.

The Side Door has one full-time staff person. Kevin Laframboise was responsible for setting up the Side Door program and continues to be the program's youth worker. I commend him for his dedicated work and recognize the support of the Anglican Church, which provides the program with a meeting place. The government often spends its time and social program dollars on interventions geared to treating problems. Correctional programs, alcohol and drug rehabilitation, counselling, health care and income support. The side door is a program that serves to prevent behaviors that may otherwise later require costly interventions. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 141-13(7): Side Door Youth Drop-in Centre

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 432

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Members' statements. Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Member's Statement 142-13(7): Government Contracts For The Supply Of Goods And Services

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 432

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, a subject of much discussion in this Legislature has been the way in which this government contracts for the supply of goods and services. Everything from the reporting of an awarded contract to the method by which contracts are awarded has been spoken to. On a positive note, I believe that progress and improvement has been made in some policy areas regarding government purchasing.

The quarterly report of contracts awarded was revised to indicate not only the company and the amount of the contract, but whether the contract had been tendered, sole-sourced, or negotiated, and I understand this may now even be taken one step further and be available through an access through a Web page. Now Mr. Speaker, there is now a Web page displaying a registry of northern companies who are eligible under the business incentive policy. There are however, still gaps in the way in which the contracts and the needs for goods and services are made public.

It has come to my attention again lately, that northern companies are still not always aware of potential business, government business, which is out there.

There is also the issue where departments contracting for capital projects do not seem to be aware of government directives in the area of northern manufacturing. I have provided a written question to the Minister responsible for Public Works and Services , to get a break down of how much capital project delivery is now done directly by client departments as opposed to the situation previously, where the Department of Public Works and Services was the primary overseer of these projects.

As I said, I believe much progress has been made in the involvement of northern companies in supplying our government, but it is a situation we have to stay ahead of. Government departments and community governments performing the task of delivering projects, programs and services on behalf of GNWT need to be kept aware of what is available from northern contractors, suppliers and manufacturers and what this government's policies are regarding business incentive initiatives. Mr. Henry suggested last week that we need to go on a trade mission to Nunavut.

This is probably not a bad idea, but I also think we need to constantly keep in the forefront the benefits of job creation and economic growth that we can create through our government's financial resources being used to buy north. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 142-13(7): Government Contracts For The Supply Of Goods And Services

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 433

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Members' statement. Mr. Henry .

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Member's Statement 143-13(7): Success Of St. Patrick's School To Work "bridges" Transition Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 433

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I today rise with a good news statement like my colleague Mr. Ootes , did. Mr. Speaker, it seems that it is not often that Members take the opportunity to congratulate the government on initiatives that are clearly successful. Today, Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the Department of Education, Culture and Employment and the former Minister, Mr. Dent , who had the foresight to provide funding to St. Patrick High School for a two year pilot project dealing with successful transitions from school to work.

Of course, Mr. Speaker, even higher congratulations must go to St. Patrick High School. Their two year Bridges program was recently chosen as one of the best ten programs of its kind in Canada. Their program is being included in the study by Dr. Rick Freeze, a professor in the faculty of education in the University of Manitoba. The study is called Transitions, Implementing Training in Self-determination, and it is being sponsored by the Canadian Council for Exceptional Children and funded by Human Resources Development Canada.

The purpose of the study is to explore the concept of self-determination in the context of meaningful graduation and successful transition from high school to the world of work. Post-secondary education, adult life and full citizenship for students with disabilities and socio-economic disadvantages. Dr. Freeze is visiting and studying sites which have the best practices and models for teaching. Supporting and implementing self-determination for young people in transition from school to adult life. Eventually a source book and handbook of the best practices and models will be developed through these consultations.

I recently had the opportunity to meet with Dr. Freeze to contribute my thoughts and support for this program.

Mr. Speaker, even though the Northwest Territories has the highest pupil/teacher ratio population, our teachers are called upon to deal with the highest rates of special needs students. Their dedication and commitment is shining through. Thanks to the initiative, competence and enthusiasm of St. Patrick High School, this program is leading the way in Canada in making the transition from school to work more successful for our students. In short, Mr. Speaker, this is what excellence in education is all about.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement, thank you.

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Member's Statement 143-13(7): Success Of St. Patrick's School To Work "bridges" Transition Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 433

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Henry is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays, Mr. Henry . You have unanimous consent.

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Member's Statement 143-13(7): Success Of St. Patrick's School To Work "bridges" Transition Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 433

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you colleagues. Mr. Speaker, once again I would like to congratulate St. Patrick High School for their achievements and the Department of Education, Culture and Employment for recognizing the potential for this program. I am sure the success will go a long way to ensure that future funding for this type of program is warranted. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 143-13(7): Success Of St. Patrick's School To Work "bridges" Transition Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 433

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery.

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 433

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today I would like to recognize one of my siblings, my brother, Mark Miltenberger. He is going to be taking up some business interests here with the bulk dealership with Esso and be a regular visitor, if not businessman, in Yellowknife. I would like to acknowledge him with pride and welcome him to the Assembly. Thank you.

--Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 433

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Recognition of visitors in the gallery, Mr. Ootes .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 433

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is very difficult to see here, but I believe I did see Mrs. Barb Bromley in the gallery and I would like to acknowledge her presence. She is a very-well known former business person in this community and a very well known citizen who has contributed much to our community over the years. Thank you.

--Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 433

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Welcome to the Assembly. Recognition of visitors in the gallery, Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 433

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do not know if this is recognition of visitors in the gallery, but I would also like to recognize Mrs. Barb Bromley and note that today she is here observing her grandson as a page in our Legislature. I would also like to acknowledge the other Pages as well. Thank you.

--Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 434

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen . Recognition of visitors in the gallery. I would like to recognize the people who did not get recognized and welcome them to the Assembly. Item 6, Oral questions. Mr. Ootes.

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Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 434

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just need a question clarification from the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment . The honourable Member from Hay River yesterday asked the question in regard to the pupil/teacher ratio in the territorial schools and the Minister provided some statistics. I wonder if he could clarify that for us? I understand the pupil/teacher ratio is really a formula for funding the school boards in the territories. Could the Minister give an explanation of that? Thank you.

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Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 434

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

The Minister responsible for Education, Culture and Employment , Mr. Miltenberger .

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Return To Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 434

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in anticipation of further questions from the Members opposite, I brought a sheaf of information about the formula. Mr. Speaker, there are two things I can do to respond to the question, I can offer a detailed briefing to the Members at whatever level they would like to whatever excruciating level of degree. I have had that briefing myself, and it is a fairly complex issue. Barring that, I can start reading this for the Member just to indicate how it all fits together.

I can indicate to the Member that it is fairly extensive and I do not know if that would be the best use of the House's time so maybe the Member could clarify for me what he would prefer. Thank you.

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Return To Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 434

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Clarification. Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Ootes .

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Supplementary To Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 434

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to compliment the Minister for working on this because it is important information, but I do believe it is probably best passed on to us in a committee meeting of some sort or as individual Members. The reason for my question, Mr. Speaker, and to clarify the information that I was after, I wonder if the Minister could tell us, when I spoke about a formula funding process, that is what the school boards get paid for. Let us say it is, 1 to 18 is the average, then the school board gets funding for 18 pupils. That is my understanding, but the classroom sizes can be much larger in many cases if I understand. Could the Minister just tell us if that may be correct?

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Supplementary To Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 434

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

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Further Return To Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 434

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, the figure 18 to 1 is an average, but there is a variation within that as I indicated to the Member from Hay River yesterday. The pupil/teacher ratio is one of the factors calculated into this formula which was developed in consultation with the DEAs and DECs and as well which has been shared fully with the NWTTA. Mr. Blake Lyons, as I understand, has had briefings on this as well, so yes, there is a variation and as I indicated yesterday, the larger communities tend to have, according to these statistics, larger class sizes.

Some of the smaller regions, the class sizes, for instance in the Deh Cho it is 1 to 15 as opposed to 19.6 for Yellowknife Education District One, for example. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 434

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Ootes .

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Supplementary To Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 434

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So the documentation the Minister has would be able to give us a breakdown for each particular school board and particular schools as to the pupil/teacher ratios. Would that be correct?

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Supplementary To Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 434

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

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Further Return To Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 434

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have the official, the deputy and the director of finance on notice to stand by for direction from the honourable Member and his colleagues as to how they would like to address this, but yes, they have all the information that the Member could want and we are more then willing to take the time to go over it with you to whatever level of detail the Members think necessary. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Question 153-13(7): Pupil/teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 434

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions, Mr. Henry .

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Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 434

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment , Mr. Miltenberger . All my questions, Mr. Speaker, will be around the third paragraph of his statement. The Minister has stated that more students than ever are staying at home to complete their schooling which helps to maintain the support system of family and friends and he also tells us the number of graduates are up significantly. Could the Minister give us a breakdown of the percentage increase by region of the increase in graduating students for the past few years? Thank you, Mr. Speaker

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Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 434

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Minister responsible for Education, Culture and Employment , Mr. Miltenberger .

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Return To Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 434

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I can indicate that secondary school participation has increased from 56 percent in 1985 to 90 percent in 1997. I can indicate that the current rate of graduates for this year, 1999, was somewhat less then 1994-95. If all the questions the Member asked I think are addressed in here. I cannot give him the regional break down as I stand here, but once again I can commit to giving him all the breakdowns that he would like in

terms of, by region, by ethnicity and by community, if that is what he would like. Thank you.

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Return To Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 435

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Henry .

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Supplementary To Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 435

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister tell us in his statement that more students than ever are staying at home, in their home community. Could the Minister tell us the number of communities that have high school education programs available to their residents? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 435

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

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Further Return To Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 435

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can give him a percentage, 98 percent of the communities have high school extensions. If he wants to know which communities, once again I would have to commit to get back to him and itemize them all for him. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 435

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Henry .

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Supplementary To Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 435

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On the Minister same paragraph, he talks about adult basic education classes are full. Can the Minister tell me approximately what portion of his budget would be dedicated to adult basic education? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 435

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

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Further Return To Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 435

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, possibly later today we are going to be getting into a detailed examination of the budget where I will have the officials, and all those budget figures with me to be able to address those questions. In fact they are listening right now, and they will be able to address all the questions the Member may have in terms of the specific detail and the numbers, the students, the breakdown, the percentage of budget spent on adult education. Once again we would be prepared to do that to the level that the Members wish when we appear later today for our budget. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Question 154-13(7): Graduation Rate Increases

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 435

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions, Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 435

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions are for the Premier , Mr. Antoine . Mr. Speaker, many people across our territory are asking for more money for education and we have a tremendous amount of infrastructure and demands on our funds. We have been through quite a deficit and cost-cutting exercise already in the last few years and whenever we talk about more money for education it always get thrown back to us well, where would you like to take it from? It is hard to find any sizable pocket of money anywhere, in one particular source.

What I would like to ask the Premier is, could the Cabinet consider and would it be conceivable that we could look at our budget as a whole, look at every department and what would be the impact of shaving even 1 or 1.5 percent off of every department to put a real boost and an injection of funding into the Department of Education, Culture and Employment? Is something like that even possible, has it ever been considered? Thank you.

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Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 435

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Premier , Mr. Antoine .

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Return To Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 435

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the request of the honourable Member for Hay River is to re-look at our whole budget and redo the base of each department to increase the base of education. That is basically what her question is, and the question was to see whether this sort of thing has been done. My answer is no, we have not done that, although there is a process that we follow. We all learn this process once we get into this House, the whole business plan process. It starts now for next year. To do it for this current budget would be impossible to do, with a lot of discussion we could probably look at the next year's budget. I guess that is the only way we could deal with it.

The other way of doing it is if we somehow or other get into a new source of revenue, like the honourable Member mentioned, that if we get into a huge pot of money some place, then that is where we would probably look at injecting into the base of the Department of Education, Culture and Employment to boost the whole problem of education. No, we have not done it for this year, we have not even talked about it. I think we are just going through the whole process right now which was started last spring and is only now coming to its conclusion. The way to do it would be for the next year, to start perhaps now and start looking at the whole process. Thank you.

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Return To Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 435

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Supplementary To Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 435

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I hear the Premier saying that if we were going to do something like taking a percentage of every department across the board and injecting it into education, we would have to look at that for not this fiscal year but the next fiscal year. Would the Premier foresee that as having too dire an impact on other departments, for a percentage reduction, such as something like 1 percent across every department? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 435

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Premier .

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Further Return To Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 436

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the line of questioning of the honourable Member cuts right to the heart of the whole budget process and, as Members in the Cabinet, we have not really talked about it. I guess that might be an option, but it is an option that would be pretty hard to do because we are talking about cutting existing programs that are being provided by the departments and every department would have to look at what they are providing in terms of programs and services and what are they willing to cut.

Basically, that is what it means, and I do not think we have talked about it or even thought about it, but we know that this is one way of dealing with the problem of shortage of funding in education. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 436

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Supplementary To Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 436

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, when we are questioned in our constituencies and by people who contact us from all over the north about this very pressing need of education, what can the Premier tell us that we can tell people? What is the prognosis of there being more funding from other revenue-generating sources in the near future? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 436

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Premier .

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Further Return To Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 436

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as everybody knows, we have been discussing the Agenda for the New North since the new year and in this agenda we are dealing with the realities that are facing us. We are looking at the bigger picture, not necessarily only at education, but all the different programs and services that all need additional funding. We have a fiscal arrangement with the federal government right now that provides us $700 million a year. From there, each department historically is allocated their share to run the programs and services of the department.

We realize that we have a limited amount of dollars, limited opportunities to raise our own revenue, but we have to look at that. In the Agenda for the New North, we address that. We look at the fiscal reality of the day and say that, okay, we know 70 percent of our budget goes to social programs, including education. There is a tremendous amount of pressure there to enforce growth and there are demands on our existing budget.

What do we do about it? In the agenda we are saying that we have to look at trying to generate our own revenue, which is very difficult to do with the type of formula we have. We have to try to make arrangements with the federal government to change the tax window, so we can grab more of the percentage of the new dollar that we generate. At the same time, we are also trying to create an environment here in the north with all the different groups that are involved in the north about sharing control of our own resources.

That is the direction that this government is taking in trying to create an opportunity there where we could generate perhaps additional revenue to address the real pressing problems we have in that fiscal arrangement.

That is the direction we are going, and every time I travel to different communities and meet with different chiefs and different mayors, village, town and city councils, we are addressing this issue on a much broader scale. That is where we see some possible new arrangements being made with the federal government. Perhaps what the honourable Members could do is help us express our concern about our present situation. We are okay for now, but down the road in about a year or two we are going to be in a situation where we have to start perhaps looking at deficits and so forth. We do not want to do that.

We are talking about this new agenda today so that perhaps things will evolve over the next year or so, so we will be able to have a bigger tax window and our fiscal policy, perhaps will be further down the line, and the Northern Accord and the whole question of devolution. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 436

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Supplementary To Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 436

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the Premier 's response but you know, Mr. Speaker, it is hard to tell parents that there is no money for education because of the demands on our budget when it seems that we are even taken by surprise, who are involved in this budget process, by announcements that come from departments.

There still is largesse in this government as far as the public is concerned. I mean, the former Finance Minister tried to convince us we needed a $500,000 economic strategy. We did not have any say on where that money came from. The former Housing Minister announced $4 million for the MDAP program, which you might as well have taken $10,000 bills to the top of the Anderson Thomson tower and threw them off and whoever caught them, that is about how directed that $4 million was.

So, we tell people there are demands on our budget, we have no money, and yet we keep spending money on things which are, I do not know if it is discretionary departmental spending, or whatever, but it is very hard to reconcile the spending of this government with the claims that we make that we have no money for education. That is not a question, I do not know if the Premier has a comment for that or not, but we are not involved in that level of detail in the budget, so...

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Supplementary To Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 436

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

The question was, where do you get all this excess money that you have for different programs?

--Laughter

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Further Return To Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 436

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

I do not think that was the original question, Mr. Speaker.

--Laughter

--Applause I guess there is, each department has their own budget to work with, and like I said, 70 percent of our total budget goes to the social envelope. I think when I started it was 68 percent, and over the years it has been climbing. It looks like the honourable Member is asking us to take a bigger chunk of the total budget and put it into the social envelope. On the other hand, we have to balance that with how are we going to create economic development. Once you create economic development, that creates employment and jobs and develops the economy.

It also puts food on the table, so we have to balance it and try and have a good balance in how we develop the new Western Territories and I guess the economic strategy, I am saying, is what you address.

The honourable Member, Mr. Kakfwi , has taken a lead role in there is that we, in the west, have just been divided 29 days today and we have a whole new territory here which is smaller, but we have to focus our attention on what we have here in the west. I think all the departments, where we had twice the amount of responsibility before, are refocusing and readdressing what we have in the west. On the economic strategy side, what we are looking at is what we have here in the west. What are the resources that are here? The oil and gas, mining industry, forestry, tourism.

We have infrastructure already in the west, and we have human resources here in the west, too. We have to take a real good look at what we have in the west with all the resources, the budget of the government, and so forth, and see how to take the best advantage of what we have here in the west. This is what we are looking at, the bigger picture, so I have to defend the economic strategy by saying I think it is a good strategy, and I think that the Minister has been addressing people in the public about it.

There is interest of pursuing it and I agree that there are a lot of other things that we have to deal with and this is how we are approaching the west, by working with an economic strategy that will look at what we have today so that we do it right from the beginning and create a Western Territory that will be a good place to live in the future here for ourselves and for our kids. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Question 155-13(7): Additional Funding For Education Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 437

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Mr. Ootes .

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Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 437

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is certainly an interesting debate and question period on this subject. I think it is interesting to hear the Premier speak on this. There is no doubt that certainly we do face problems. I think what Mrs. Groenewegen was saying was, we have done a lot of strategies and spent a lot of money on them, including the economic strategy. The question becomes, where do we really get the money to do the extra programming that needs to be done?

Where do we get the funds for the education program, on which the forum produced a good report with good recommendations, but we just cannot implement some of them. I guess it is true that we are a smaller territory, that gives us an opportunity to focus and to focus on our needs, on the social needs and how do we generate an economy here that is productive for us.

The question comes into it, for example, the Northern Accord, we are discussing the Northern Accord quite a bit, but how do we benefit from the Northern Accord as a territory? I realize there are benefits to the aboriginal groups in this, there may also be benefits to us as a territorial government but then the federal government claws back much of that if we get it from our transfer payments, so the benefit is not 100 percent if we get the Northern Accord. Then there is the whole question of, how do we keep and attract more people to stay in the territories and to live in the territories?

Is that done through the employee tax? A lot of people are against increasing the employee tax. On the other hand, if you increase it, maybe more people will stay here. Those are the kind of questions. Perhaps I could ask the Premier to address those kinds of concerns that I have, how do we generate more money in the territory?

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Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 437

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Premier .

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Return To Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 437

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in the Agenda for New North we see it as one of the key elements that is linked with the other elements of getting governance right, the fiscal policy, sharing control of our resources. Sharing control of our resources is the same thing as the Northern Accord or devolution, northern control of northern resources. The principle behind it is that we in the Northwest Territories, we are not a province yet, we are still a territory. The federal government through DIAND still controls our natural resources up here. Down the line eventually, the logical conclusion of where we are headed would be to gain control of our resources.

This has been done in the past by previous governments and previous Ministers, however, we have never let it go, we are still talking about it. What we are doing today here is putting this whole issue up front again and trying to address it. I do not think we will be able to conclude anything substantial in the life of this government if we have a fall election. However, what we are doing is beginning to talk about it and I think we have talked to a lot of different groups. We have to approach this whole area in a partnership arrangement with the aboriginal governments, as well as the federal government.

We have already made overtures to the different groups. It is not going to be an easy task and it is a very sensitive type of approach we are taking. However, the reality is that we have to address this eventually, down the line. It is not going to happen right away.

If we do gain control of our own resources, then we would be able to have control over our own resources, we would be able to say how things get developed in our area and who develops it. We have to do it in partnership with the aboriginal people and it is going to take some time. I foresee that once this is achieved the north will be able to control its own resources. We know that with the oil and gas exploration that is going on, say in my constituency down in Liard, this is just the tip of the iceberg for gas development.

In the Norman Wells area they are exploring there for oil again and then, with the diamond exploration going on north of here, this is all just the tip of the iceberg in major development of our natural resources. It is going to happen eventually and we have to start talking about it. It is not going to happen right away. I agree with the honourable Member that, yes, we have a fiscal arrangement with the federal government and then once we start gaining control of our own resources they would be clawing back from their grant. That is natural.

I guess the ultimate goal is that we in the north, once we gain control of resources, however we do it, or however long it is going to take, we will be able to not depend on the federal government anymore. We will be able to pay our own way. That is the ultimate goal. It is a long-range goal that we are talking about here in gaining control of our resources. Thank you.

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Return To Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 438

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Ootes .

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Supplementary To Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 438

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There is no doubt that the Northwest Territories is a huge storehouse of resources. Oil, gas, mining, minerals, diamonds, gold and nickel, copper, you name it and we probably have it. It is a matter of getting it to market, in most cases finding it, developing it and getting it to market. There is no question about that. It is important to work with the aboriginal groups to reach a Northern Accord and I certainly would be supportive of that.

The area of concern with that, as I mentioned earlier, is how do we achieve a Northern Accord, and there is a complication with that, of course, but how do we get approval from the federal government to acknowledge that they have to lower the amount that they claw back from us when we get a Northern Accord? In other words, right now I understand it is $.75 in every dollar that they claw back. It has to come down to something like $.30 or $.25 for us to make it worthwhile. That is the challenge for us to achieve. We need to get control of the resources, but secondly we have to alter the formula financing.

Could the Minister tell us if my assumption in that is correct?

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Supplementary To Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 438

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Premier .

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Further Return To Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 438

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Finance Minister , in his budget speech, had made references to the concern of the honourable Member. However, in replying to his questions in regard to how do we achieve a Northern Accord and how do we lower the amount of the clawback that the federal government does whenever we generate revenue; the clawback is, every time we generate a dollar, they take $.80 off the revenue, the grant. The net increase we have is $.20 on the dollar so it is not very good incentive for us to try to generate dollars.

In mid-March along with the previous Finance Minister , Mr. John Todd, I had an opportunity to meet with Ms. Jane Stewart, the Minister of DIAND, as well as the federal Finance Minister , Paul Martin. We explained the agenda, we will call it the Western Agenda at that time, since we were still together with Nunavut. The way I approached it is that I said that we are not here to ask for any more money, but I think we have found a way where eventually it will cost the federal government less money to take care of us in the north.

That is the approach that I took in explaining the agenda to the federal Minister, so he likes the principle that we ran by him in regard to the fiscal arrangement of seeing if we could retain more of the dollar if we generate a new dollar, more than $.20. We did not say the number, but we wanted to make sure there is a possibility of making an arrangement with the federal government of retaining more of the dollar if we generate a new dollar. At the same time, we mentioned that maybe one way of approaching this is to look at this whole area of sharing control of our resources again.

We did not get into exact details of how we are going to do it, but we ran the principle by him and he is supportive of it.

This is where the arrangement will have to be made, is that we have to make an arrangement with the northern aboriginal nations, different governments up here, along with the territorial government. This is what we are working at. We are trying to develop a rapport and some arrangement and this is where we are at. We need a partnership arrangement with them before we go to the federal government. The federal government, I think, right now is receptive to our agenda.

There is precedence taken in the Yukon where the oil and gas devolution is pretty well concluded in the devolution from the federal to the Yukon government. It is done in the north in another territory. It kind of sets a precedent, so I think we are working closer towards some arrangement than we were a few months ago. Thank you.

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Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 438

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Ootes .

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Supplementary To Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 438

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That, of course, raises the whole question of how quickly can we reach a Northern Accord? The land claims situation has been underway for many years and this is all predicated upon the fact that we need to reach a Northern Accord, but what kind of time frame are we dealing with here? If we are dealing with another ten or 20 years then we may as well stop talking about this. We have to some closure to this in order for us to generate some funds, both for ourselves and for the aboriginal groups. Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 438

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Premier .

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Further Return To Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 438

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to say how quickly we will be able to reach a Northern Accord. We have to be very careful here about not stepping on any toes up here. We want to make sure that everybody is comfortable and knows what it is that we are trying to do. We are saying that it has to be a partnership arrangement with the aboriginal governments, first, and then proceed from there. We are doing a lot of meetings and making presentations to the different aboriginal governments here in the north and there is a positive indication that we should proceed.

There are no real substantial agreements and arrangements made to date. However, I would say that there is a positive indication that we should move along with the agenda in the direction that we have been taking for the last couple of months. I would say that we may have substantial progress before the next budget, let us put it that way. There may be something within the next year or so.

As you all know, we are hoping that there will be an election in the fall and whoever gets into our positions here will have to deal with the same issue anyway, so what we are doing today with the agenda, is saying that these are the five elements we are dealing with. These are the things that we are dealing with, with the government, and that is what the people in the north should know, that we are dealing with and this is how we are intending to proceed with it. I think we are going along, it is not a very easy road, however, like I said earlier there is an indication that there are positive responses to the approach we have been taking today. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Question 156-13(7): Generation Of Additional Revenues

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 439

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Mr. Henry .

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Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 439

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier again. I am following up on questions that were asked by Mrs. Groenewegen and Mr. Ootes . Unlike them, they are looking for long term funds and I think that is important, but I think within the next year we are going to need additional funds to provide proper health care and teacher education in our communities. I am looking for funds in the short term, Mr. Speaker.

Sometimes I sit on this side of the House and get very frustrated when Ordinary Members ask questions of the Ministers along the lines of when are you going to put more funds into education, or when are you going to put more funds into the health care, and the Ministers respond there is no more money and then they ask the question, where do you want us to take it from?

Mr. Speaker, I find that very frustrating with the very competent and capable bureaucracy that these Ministers have at their disposal, and they are asking Ordinary Members over on this side of the House, who have limited resources in research staff, to provide those answers. Mr. Speaker, I fully intend to answer the question that is put by some of the Ministers sometimes when they ask where are we going to find the funds?

Mr. Speaker, we all know that there are large amounts of money spent by this government in the area of travel. I am wondering if the Premier would agree with me that the amount that is spent in travel, and I do not anticipate that the Premier would have that type of information available to him, but would he agree with me that there is probably at least $10 million a year spent on travel within the government? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 439

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Premier .

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Further Return To Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 439

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, when the honourable Member asked about travel, I take it he meant all travel that is paid for by the government. I am told that medical travel alone is way more than $10 million a year. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 439

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Henry .

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Supplementary To Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 439

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Minister for part of that answer, and I appreciate that he may not have the information available. What I was talking about, Mr. Speaker, is travel that takes place by the bureaucracy, by politicians, that amount of money. Would he agree that, that is probably in excess of $10 million a year? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 439

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Premier .

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Further Return To Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 439

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this is something I am not very familiar with. I have to consult with my finance Minister, so I will try to get that answer to the Member as soon as I can. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 439

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Henry .

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Supplementary To Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 439

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Mr. Speaker, on the question of travel, I recognize that is extremely important for the government and is extremely important for the bureaucracy that they meet their counterparts, go to conferences, bring back new ideas and different ways of doing things. I think that is very important, and I am not looking at trying to curb that. I personally, and I am sure each one of us have paid full fair tickets on occasion, Mr. Speaker, and this is the type of money that I am trying to propose that the government look at saving.

My question to the Premier is, would he consider initiating a policy where travel can only be done on excursion rates? In other words, you have to plan seven days ahead before you would take a trip. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 439

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Premier .

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Further Return To Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 439

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I will have to look at this. I think the Members of Cabinet will have to discuss this, and then we will look at it to see whether that is a possibility. I think it is a good idea. I think we may have policies in place already that kind of direct us in regards to new travel policies and so forth. There are policies in place. We will look at those and see what the possibilities are to taking this suggestion of the honourable Member into looking at this policy. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 439

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Final supplementary, Mr. Henry .

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Supplementary To Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 439

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have no doubt that the Premier , if he has some calculations done on each department in the past years and the amount the budget that was used for travel and the portion that could be saved -- I wonder if the Minister would bring that information back to the House each year, how much travel took place for the last couple of years and how many fares were full fare and how many were excursion, and let us try and get a difference on what this government could save. Will the Premier commit to bringing that

information back to the House? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 440

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Premier .

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Further Return To Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 440

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you. Whenever a request is made for departments to do research into what happened in the last couple of years takes a substantial amount of time. Perhaps that research will be a good research if it eventually saves money, and we will do that. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Question 157-13(7): Funds Spent On Travel By The Government

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 440

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 440

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I hear what my colleague is saying here. He has identified travel as an area where he believes this government could save substantial amounts of money. I know this is not the budget process, this is question period. Mr. Speaker, I also have a suggestion and I would like to find out if the Premier would be willing to pursue my idea. Mr. Speaker, each and every day, as MLAs and I am sure people throughout the bureaucracy of this government, receive probably about ( Mr.

Erasmus would not mind if I borrow his desk) this much paper almost on a daily, if not every second day, basis, that we live in a modern age of technology. We do not all need hard copies of every document that this government produces, which I am sure we spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars on to produce, not to mention the fact that it is environmentally not a good idea. Any and all of these documents could be downloaded onto computers that Members and the public could access once they become available as tabled documents.

We have a real subculture of paper in the bureaucracy and in the government. This is another area of potential savings. Is this an area the Premier would be prepared to look at as a cost-saving measure? Thank you.

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Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 440

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Premier .

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Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 440

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

We will do what we can. Thank you.

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Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 440

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 440

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, if I could continue on the ideas to save money because, as Mr. Henry says, this is something we get thrown back at us all the time. Where can we save money? Mr. Speaker, I want to say, for the record, that if we were to be asked, does this government waste money, I am sure we would have to honestly answer that, in fact, it does. We have a library over here that is full of strategies, reviews and documents. Yesterday's studies are today's dust collectors. All of these things have a shelf life, and before we have even had a chance to really read the last one, we are embarking on a new one.

Would the Premier agree to look at the possibility of...right now we are heading into another Ministerial Forum on Health, and we just spent $350,000 on the Ministerial Forum on Education. Would the Premier agree to try and put a stop to this insatiable desire this government seems to have to review and study? Thank you.

--Applause

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Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 440

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Premier .

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Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 440

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, yes there are strategic plans in place to refocus and relook at what we are doing and how things are getting done. We have a consensus government here, and every time we want to do something, everybody out there, the communities, want to have a say. In this whole area, in the area of let us say, Health and Social Services, there was a request for a public inquiry into Health and Social Services, let us say, into the Inuvik area. That causes a heck of a lot more dollars than doing the strategic plan.

Again, we in the Western Territory here, we are a smaller territory and like the Minister of Health and Social Services is saying, we have nine Health and Social Services Boards. We have nine administrations that are running the Health and Social Services Boards in the west. When we were together with Nunavut, perhaps we were functioning for a bigger area and more people. Now that we are smaller, we have to refocus and recharge.

Perhaps the Health and Social Services Minister's Forum will make some suggestions on how to cut some costs and save dollars. Perhaps that could be a way of finding more dollars, but it might also be a way of saying the arrangements on how to streamline some operations and have better health and social services care. Yes, you are asking that we should stop doing strategic plans and I think that there is a need for it, especially with this consensus style of government we have, and every time we want to do something, people want to have a say.

So there is a need for it, I think, but I agree that perhaps before any other strategic plan gets struck up that we take a real close look whether there is a need for it before we undertake the next strategy. I do not see anything coming down the line here on that, but if anything is suggested, we have to take a real close look at it. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 440

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Supplementary To Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 440

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, I know that the study or the inquiry into Health and Social Services was requested, but the Premier says that people want to have a say and that with our consensus style of government, we have to consult the people. Well, we are here representing those people and what we are saying is that this government spends too much money soliciting input from people, which it may or may not act upon, and too often probably does not act upon anyway.

I had called for a couple of documents from the library here the other day on deficit-cutting ideas that was conducted in late 1995. A lot of the comments from the public in there would be the same as if you went out and asked them again today, but probably would not read that,

we would probably file it some place.

Mr. Speaker, we are here to represent the people. We are a part of this consensus government too. Perhaps the Cabinet could consult with us when they want to know where we could save money or different ways that we could find of doing things. It is possible to say no to consultation as well. Everybody wants to be a consultant. It does not mean we can afford, as a government, to consult everybody. Just say no. That is what Cabinet says to us all the time when we ask for more money for education. Mr.

Speaker, would the Premier agree to consider putting a moratorium on this next ministerial forum which will probably cost another third or quarter of a million dollars on Health and Social Services and look for a cheaper way to solicit information and input on the way this department conducts its business? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 441

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Premier .

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Further Return To Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 441

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think it will be very difficult for me to put a moratorium on this next forum here on Health and Social Services. I think there was a request from different communities, I understand, and we had committed to do it. I think some Members in the House had asked us to do it as well, so we are going to carry on with it. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Question 158-13(7): Cost-savings Measures

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 441

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Mr. Ootes .

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Question 159-13(7): GNWT Purchasing Power

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 441

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is an interesting subject for us to be able to ask questions on. We have to remember that this government controls, in the coming year, $750 million, and, as such, we have tremendous purchasing power. That needs to be taken into consideration. We have a lot of southern suppliers coming into the north, a lot of southern-owned businesses doing business in the north, we purchase from. There is no reason why we cannot hardball and be tough with these people and say, if you want our business, you give us a better deal. Sharpen your pencils.

I know that we as a government are probably saying what does it cost, pay the bill. I think it is time we said we can do that. I have every confidence in our Cabinet here, and Cabinet Members. They are very capable, very sharp, have a lot of experience behind them, and some of the Members. I think we can put our heads together and say, we can probably, out of $750 million, come up with $10 to $15 million by sharpening other people's pencils and I believe that is possible in terms of freight supplies, in terms of telephone service....

--Hear! Hear!

we have to be the biggest purchasers. So my question is, will the Premier look at this particular end, of purchasing power in the Territory, and can we improve that? Thank you.

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Question 159-13(7): GNWT Purchasing Power

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 441

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Premier .

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Return To Question 159-13(7): GNWT Purchasing Power

Question 159-13(7): GNWT Purchasing Power

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 441

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think that is a very excellent point the honourable Member is making in regard to purchasing power. Yes, we do have over $700 million a year in our budget and we do have a lot of say in it. Whenever we travel down south and meet with our counterparts, let us say in Alberta, BC or Ontario, studies show that whenever a dollar is spent in the north in terms of development, let us say the Ekati Mines, the diamond mine when it was built, every dollar that was spent there, 80 cents of it found its way down south, some place in Alberta, Ontario or BC.

The southern provinces benefit from whatever happens in the north. I do not think we have advantage of that, and I think we have started to address that whenever we travel and meet with our counterparts down south. We want them to turn their attention North, not only to their northern borders but beyond that, where we are, and say that there are people up here and there are opportunities here and we have to work in partnership with each other.

On that, this government had a Memorandum of Understanding signed with the Government of Alberta that there would be cooperation and coordination of work up in the North and that sort of arrangement needs to be made.

We have to also look at ourselves here in the Western Territories in terms of how we spend our money. How are we spending our money? I think the Economic Strategy, hopefully, addresses that as well. We are a smaller territory, we have resources, we have x, number of dollars to spend, how can we best utilize it so that we have maximum benefits from what we have up here. I agree with the Member, we certainly are going to take a look at the suggestion that he has made and we hope to address it as we go along, working with Mr. Kakfwi in developing our Economic Strategy. Thank you.

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Return To Question 159-13(7): GNWT Purchasing Power

Question 159-13(7): GNWT Purchasing Power

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 441

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Mr. Henry .

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Question 160-13(7): Development Corporation Expenditure Guidelines

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 441

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It seems that this side of the House is after money savings and I am going to continue along that line, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for RWED , Mr. Kakfwi . Mr. Speaker, we all know the importance of setting rules and policies and ensuring that those are enforced and my honourable Member for Yellowknife North quizzed the Minister the past couple of days about the fact of and the importance of following rules.

A couple of days ago, in answer to questions that I posed, the Minister told me that, in fact, there were some amounts of money that were distributed through the Development Corporation which exceeded the FMB guidelines. I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister could confirm that statement is accurate, that some funds that are distributed through the NWT Development Corporation do exceed the Financial Management Board guidelines? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 160-13(7): Development Corporation Expenditure Guidelines

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 441

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

The Minister responsible for Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development , Mr. Kakfwi .

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Return To Question 160-13(7): Development Corporation Expenditure Guidelines

Question 160-13(7): Development Corporation Expenditure Guidelines

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 442

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I should let Members know that as of this morning there is a total of nine members now on the Board of the NWT Development Corporation. Cabinet is now is full compliance with the requirements of the act.

In regard to proper spending authorities being in place for expenditure of monies, this is one of the responsibilities perhaps that the Auditor General performs where public money is being spent. I believe that the Auditor General has pointed out for a number of years concerns that he has about the operational manner, perhaps, of the NWT Development Corporation. We have tasked the president of the Development Corporation to address those concerns over the last number of years.

The Auditor General this year has again raised concerns, so we have decided to do an operational audit and I believe we are moving to have a full comprehensive audit of the Development Corporation so that we can be very specific about whether or not we are operating properly. These are not exact accounting terms or legal terms that I am using but, if we are not complying in the eyes of the Auditor General then I want to move decisively this year to address those concerns and we are moving in that direction. Thank you.

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Return To Question 160-13(7): Development Corporation Expenditure Guidelines

Question 160-13(7): Development Corporation Expenditure Guidelines

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 442

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Henry .

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Supplementary To Question 160-13(7): Development Corporation Expenditure Guidelines

Question 160-13(7): Development Corporation Expenditure Guidelines

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 442

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I believe the Minister did tell this House that the Financial Management Board guidelines were exceeded and what I am looking for, is that statement correct that the Financial Management Board guidelines were exceeded in funds that were distributed through the NWT Development Corporation? If that is so, I would like to know how much it was, who authorized it, and who received the funds? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 160-13(7): Development Corporation Expenditure Guidelines

Question 160-13(7): Development Corporation Expenditure Guidelines

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 442

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Mr. Kakfwi .

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Further Return To Question 160-13(7): Development Corporation Expenditure Guidelines

Question 160-13(7): Development Corporation Expenditure Guidelines

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 442

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Let me say that, this year, we know that the Development Corporation has a smaller scope of operation, there are fewer subsidiaries to support and fund. The headquarters staff have less work to do. The Arctic Canada Trading Company, I believe, also has less product to move because the entire jurisdiction of Nunavut is now no longer the responsibility of Arctic Canada Trading Company. It follows that we can expect them to downsize at least on a temporary basis. We have concerns from the Auditor General that suggest that we should have some concerns about the size of some of the operations of the subsidiaries.

On the political side, and I have said this to the standing committee, many of our communities in the west do not receive a single dollar from the Development Corporation because there are no subsidiaries, no projects in many of the communities. We now have some projects that are being proposed to us for which we are unable to respond. It follows that some of the subsidiaries that are taking more than the approved allocation of funds by the FMB should be reviewed and the Great Slave Forest Products is one subsidiary that is taking a large amount of funding support from the Development Corporation. It is necessary to address that.

It should be pointed out, I guess, that this is not a subsidiary that is exactly locally owned or controlled, but we have advanced to the people of Fort Resolution a number of suggestions. The difficulty we are having right now is trying to make sure that the financial information we have about the operation of that subsidiary, the financial information that we get is accurate and factual. That is going to take us a little while. We have been unable, as I understand it, to provide the information that the Auditor General has been asking for a number of years now. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 160-13(7): Development Corporation Expenditure Guidelines

Question 160-13(7): Development Corporation Expenditure Guidelines

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 442

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Question period is over, but I will allow Mr. Henry his final supplementary. Do you have a final supplementary? No. Question period is over. Item 7, written questions. Item 8, returns to written questions. Item 9, replies to opening address. Item 10, petitions. Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. Item 12, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 13, tabling of documents. Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Tabled Document 36-13(7): Letter From Hay River Parent Focus Group Regarding Education Issues

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 442

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today I would like to table a letter from the Parent Focus Group in Hay River who have written a letter regarding the issues of education. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Tabled Document 36-13(7): Letter From Hay River Parent Focus Group Regarding Education Issues

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 442

The Deputy Speaker

David Krutko

Tabling of documents. Item 14, notices of motion. Item 15, notices of motion for first reading of bills. Item 16, motions. Item 17, first reading of bills. Item 18, second reading of bills. Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters. Bill 17 , with Mrs. Groenewegen in the chair.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 442

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

I call the committee of the whole to order. We are continuing on from yesterday with the Department of Health and Social Services. Is the committee agreed?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 442

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 442

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Would the Minister like to bring witnesses?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 442

Floyd Roland

Inuvik

Yes, Madam Chairperson.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 442

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Is the committee agreed?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 442

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 442

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Would the Sergeant-at-

Arms please escort the witnesses in, when they arrive, and if I could direct Members' attention, please, to page 6-29 of your Main Estimates book. Could I ask the Minister if he would please introduce his witnesses again for today's record? Than