Debates of Feb. 25th, 1997

This is page numbers 849 - 877 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 4th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was chairman .

Topics

Members Present

Item 1: Prayer

Minister Absent From House

Division Meetings In Holman Island

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Return To Written Question 11-13(4): Community Libraries

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Recommendation To Retain Baffin And Keewatin Regional Librarians In The 1997-98 Budget

Recommendation That Funding Be Allocated To An Fas/fae Education/training Module

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Item 22: Orders Of The Day

Members Present

Honourable Jim Antoine , Honourable Goo Arlooktoo , Mr. Barnabas , Honourable Charles Dent , Mr. Enuaraq , Mr. Erasmus , Mr. Evaloarjuk , Honourable Samuel Gargan , Mrs. Groenewegen , Mr. Henry , Mr. Krutko , Mr. Miltenberger , Honourable Don Morin , Mr. Ningark , Mr. O'Brien , Mr. Ootes , Mr. Picco , Mr. Rabesca , Mr. Roland , Mr. Steen , Honourable Manitok Thompson , Honourable John Todd .

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Oh, God, may your spirit and guidance be in us as we work for the benefit of all our people, for peace and justice in our land and for constant recognition of the dignity and aspirations of those whom we serve. Amen.

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 849

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Enuaraq . Orders of the day. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Morin .

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Minister's Statement 61-13(4): Minister Absent From House

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 849

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to advise Members that the Honourable Stephen Kakfwi will be absent from the House today to attend meetings with the president of the Canadian Energy Research Institute and the chairman of the National Energy Board at the Canadian Energy Research Institute North American Gas and Oil in Calgary. As well, Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Kelvin Ng will be absent from the House for the remainder of this week to attend the meeting of Provincial/Territorial Ministers of Justice in Fredericton. Thank you.

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Minister's Statement 61-13(4): Minister Absent From House

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 849

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Steen .

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Division Meetings In Holman Island

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 849

Vince Steen

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Premier on behalf of the community of Holman Island for allowing his staff including Mr. Gilmour, secretary to the Cabinet, to proceed to Holman Island on February 12, 1997 to discuss issues and concerns deriving from division 1999. Mr. Speaker, this community waited a long time for this important meeting to happen. I am told that some very fundamental issues in regards to future education and health and social service programs were discussed with further discussions to follow at a later date.

Consequently, the community is expecting the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment and the Minister of Health and Social Services and their respective departmental officials to visit the community of Holman in the near future and address these concerns directly.

Mr. Speaker, as MLA for Nunakput, I plan to travel to Holman Island on March 12 and I am inviting the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment , Mr. Dent , to accompany me on this constituency visit and perhaps ease some of the concerns of the community. We would be visiting the communities of Paulatuk, Tuktoyaktuk and Sachs Harbour as well. With that, Mr. Speaker, once again I would like to extend my appreciation to the Premier , Honourable Mr. Morin . Thank you.

-- Applause

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Division Meetings In Holman Island

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 849

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Antoine .

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Return To Question 256-13(4): Drivers' Licence Photographs

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 849

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a return to oral question asked by Mr. Erasmus on February 6th regarding drivers' licence photographs. On Thursday, February 6th, the Member for Yellowknife North asked about the Department of Transportation practice of retaining a duplicate of the photograph used in photo ID drivers' licenses. The Department of Transportation introduced photo ID drivers' licenses in April of 1991. For the first few years, the second photograph was not retained. The practice was changed in 1994 for better security in replacing lost or stolen drivers' licenses.

The department found that people could too easily obtain false photo ID drivers' licenses or age-of-majority cards by claiming to have lost their license and then presenting someone else's birth certificate or health care card as proof of their identity. Retaining the second photograph on file makes it possible to establish a positive identification of the person who comes to the motor vehicle office asking for a new document. This is especially important for these documents which, because of the photograph, are widely used as proof of identity.

False identity documents can be used for fraudulent and criminal purposes. The motor vehicles division retains the photograph solely for identification purposes and strictly within the motor vehicles division. As with any documents issued or received by the motor vehicles division, its files are confidential and subject to the privacy provision of the Motor Vehicles Act and the Access to Information and Protection and Privacy Act. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

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Return To Question 256-13(4): Drivers' Licence Photographs

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 849

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Returns to oral questions. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Miltenberger .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 850

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to recognize a former colleague. One of the fine superintendents from Education, Culture and Employment, Ms. Sydney O'Sullivan.

-- Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 850

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Welcome to the Assembly. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Picco .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 850

Edward Picco

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I see a good friend of mine, long-time northerner and educator and I think now the assistant superintendent for ECE in the Baffin region, Miss Mary Ellen Thomas.

-- Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 850

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Welcome to the Assembly. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Ningark .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 850

John Ningark

Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to introduce to you and my colleagues the superintendent of Education, Culture and Employment in the Kitikmeot region, Leona Aglukkaq.

-- Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 850

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Welcome to the Assembly. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mrs. Thompson .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 850

Manitok Thompson

Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to recognize my husband, my best friend and the best superintendent of all those guys.

-- Laughter/Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 850

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Welcome to the Assembly. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Roland .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 850

Floyd Roland

Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. At this time I would like to recognize a dedicated worker in Inuvik region, making sure that the Inuvik budget stays together, Helen Sullivan, regional superintendent of Education.

-- Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 850

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Welcome to the Assembly. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Krutko .

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Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 850

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question today is for the Minister of Finance , the Honourable John Todd . It is my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that the federal government has offered to extend the Canadian Infrastructure Works Program to cover the 1997 construction season. Can Minister Todd confirm this?

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Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 850

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

The Minister of Finance , Mr. Todd .

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Return To Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 850

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, I can confirm that the federal government has agreed to an extension of the existing infrastructure program. Thank you.

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Return To Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 850

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko .

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Supplementary To Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 850

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As most of the Members know in this House, I raised the issue last year related to the water problems in Fort McPherson and also in Aklavik. I would like to ask the Minister if it is hoped at this time to possibly assist the communities by accessing some of these funds to assist us in dealing with those outstanding problems.

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Supplementary To Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 850

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Todd .

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Further Return To Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 850

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Yes, Mr. Speaker, that is the kind of project that this program can assist. I would caution my honourable colleague that the total dollar impact on this project for across the territories is somewhere in the region of $2.7 million, of which 50 percent comes from the federal government, the rest from our coffers. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 850

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko .

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Supplementary To Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 850

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister identify what types of programs that this program will cover to be eligible for that?

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Supplementary To Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 850

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Mr. Todd .

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Further Return To Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 850

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Yes, Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I alluded to earlier, there is a reality that there is roughly $2.7 million as an extension with this program. That is significantly less dollars than what we had over the last three years because it is a three year program. There may be some concern about the way in which we distribute it. In the past, I believe that we distributed it on a per capita basis by community. Mr. Dent advises me that given the size of the monies we have in place, we may in fact be considering distributing this money on a regional basis rather then a community by community basis. That decision has not been finalized at this time. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 850

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Final supplementary.

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Supplementary To Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 851

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister keep myself and the communities that I represent informed on the availability of these resources so that we can take advantage of them especially in light of the problems that I raised last year in regards to our utilidor and water problems in Fort McPherson? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 851

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Mr. Todd .

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Further Return To Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 851

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Yes, Mr. Speaker, it would be our intent to keep the communities and each of the constituents aware of this issue, but again, I stress to you it is a $2.7 million project across all of the communities in the Arctic. We may have to take a slightly difference approach than we did in the past. I believe the dollar amount last time for a three year period was in the region of $17 million. It may be that we will have to take a slightly different approach, but certainly the intent is to get the money as quickly as we can down to the communities and down to the people where it is most needed. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Question 389-13(4): Extension Of Canadian Infrastructure Works Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 851

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Item 7, written questions. Item 8, returns to written questions. Mr. Clerk.

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Return To Written Question 11-13(4): Community Libraries

Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Page 851

Clerk Of The House

Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Speaker, return to Written Question 11-13(4) asked by Mr. Picco to the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment concerning community libraries. On February 4, 1997 the Member for Iqaluit requested information on community libraries concerning:

1. The funding allocated in the 1997-98 budget for training and ongoing support services for libraries and library staff in the Baffin and Keewatin Regions.

Funding for local librarian training and ongoing support services in both the Baffin and Keewatin Regions is provided through the regional O and M budget. O and M budgets for Baffin and Keewatin are as follows:

REGION 1996/97 1997/98

Baffin $26,000 $26,000

Keewatin $15,000 $15,000

The funding for local librarian training in the western Arctic is provided through the budget from headquarters in Hay River. Libraries in the western Arctic receive funding support from the GNWT to cover salaries only. All other services are provided directly from headquarters in Hay River.

Ongoing support services, such as: centralized ordering, receiving, cataloguing, processing, database and automated library system maintenance, are provided to all regions from headquarters. All the library materials purchased, including books, videos and audio cassettes, have been allocated to the western Arctic, the Baffin region and the Keewatin region. One-half of the resources are allocated to the east and one-half to the west.

2. The number of training workshops provided by the headquarters staff, the headquarters staff in the Baffin and Keewatin and the regional librarians in the Baffin and Keewatin.

Training is provided by headquarters staff for all regional staff.

a) Training related to implementation of new systems is provided through workshops.

In 1996 fifteen individual on-site workshops were provided for libraries in the western Arctic; that is, libraries in Inuvik, Yellowknife, Hay River, Fort Smith and the Legislative Library in Yellowknife. These workshops enabled staff to become familiar with changes in the computerized systems, as libraries in these communities became able to access the systems.

Similar training workshops for regional staff in Iqaluit and Rankin Inlet were not provided in 1996 since they were not yet able to access the on-line systems to the same level. Once the Digital Communications Network has been enhanced in these communities in 1997-98 similar on-site training workshops will be delivered.

Smaller libraries operate according to the Local Librarian Handbook with assistance from headquarters and a local library board as needed.

b) Ongoing training in procedural updates and problem solving is also provided:

- by telephone and electronic mail as part of daily routine work at headquarters;

- through the Local Librarian Handbook which is updated and revised at headquarters as needed.

In 1992 there was a general training workshop in Iqaluit for both the Baffin and Keewatin community librarians held by the territorial librarian with the participation of the regional librarians. In 1994 and 1995 general workshops were provided in Iqaluit by the Baffin regional librarian for all Baffin community librarians. There was no workshop in 1996; however, regional librarians in the Baffin and Keewatin regions also provide additional ongoing training within their regions during visits to communities and by telephone and electronic mail.

3. Confirmation that the Baffin region is the only region where all library holdings are completely documented in the system.

All the collections from the six local libraries have been entered into the on-line database, partly by regional staff and partly by headquarters staff.

4. Identification of the contract or contact position available to consult with community librarians in the Baffin about local issues such as relations with hamlet councils, education authorities and school principals.

The regional superintendents for Education, Culture and Employment will provide this service in the Baffin and Keewatin regions. This service is already provided by regional superintendents in the western Arctic.

5. Confirmation that community libraries in the Baffin and Keewatin will be able to recover all expenses from this department for additional long distance charges for telephone, fax or computer to headquarters or Yellowknife rather than the regional centre.

The need for calls to headquarters or Yellowknife from the Baffin and Keewatin regions is not expected to be significantly increased since initial contact will be with the regional library technician. This position will still be based in Iqaluit and will continue to provide ongoing advice and support to community librarians in the east. The regional superintendent will also provide support and either the library technician or the regional superintendent can call headquarters staff to provide direct help to community librarians at headquarters' expense if such support is required.

In addition, the Digital Communications Network will provide more economical communications between all communities as they become connected, thereby reducing telephone, fax and computer links to headquarters.

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Return To Written Question 11-13(4): Community Libraries

Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Page 852

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Returns to written questions. Item 9, replies to opening address. Item 10, petitions. Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. Item 12, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 13, tabling of documents. Mr. Picco .

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Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 852

Edward Picco

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to go back to item 10, petitions.

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Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 852

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

The Member for Iqaluit is seeking unanimous consent to return to item 10. Do we have any nays? You do not have unanimous consent, Mr. Picco . Tabling of documents. Mr. Evaloarjuk .

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Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 852

Mark Evaloarjuk

Amittuq

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two letters to table. The first one is a letter about a video that is called " Atanajuat", Tabled Document No. 55-13(4).

Mr. Speaker, I am tabling this document, Tabled Document No. 56-13(4). It has to do with the Inuit Cultural Institute wanting to produce a video. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. (Translation ends)

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Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 852

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Evaloarjuk . Tabling of documents. Mr. Krutko .

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Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 852

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table a letter, Tabled Document No. 57-13(4), which was sent to Ethel Blondin-Andrew, the MP for the western Arctic. It is from the mayor of Fort McPherson. It is in regards to the infrastructure funding program and also a letter that was sent to Mr. Todd in relation to the same program.

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Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 852

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Tabling of documents. Item 14, notices of motion. Item 15, notices of motion for first reading of bills. Item 16, motions. Item 17, first reading of bills. Item 18, second reading of bills. Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters. Bill 2 , 8 , 9 , 10 , Committee Report 2-13(4), Committee Report 3-13(4), Committee Report 4-13(4) and Committee Report 6-13(4). With Mr. Ningark in the chair.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 852

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. I would like to call the committee to order. We have a number of items to be considered under item 19. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Barnabas .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 852

Levi Barnabas

High Arctic

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will consider Bill 8 , Appropriation Act, 1997-98, Committee Report 2-13(4), Committee Report 3-13(4), Committee Report 4-13(4) and Committee Report 6-13(4). We will conclude the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 852

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Do we have agreement that we will consider Bill 8 , Appropriation Act, 1997-98 and then Committee Reports 2-13(4), 3-13(4), 4-13(4) and 6-13(4)?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 852

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 852

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. We are on page 9-20. We are reviewing 1997-98 main estimates of the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, activity

summary. Mr. Minister, do you wish to bring in any witnesses before we get into the detail? Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 852

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Yes please, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 852

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Are we agreed?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 852

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 852

The Chair

John Ningark

Agreed. Sergeant-at-Arms, see to the witnesses, please. Thank you. Mr. Minister, would you please introduce the witnesses to the committee.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 852

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, on my left is Mr. Mark Cleveland, assistant deputy minister for Culture and Careers and on my right, Mr. Paul Devitt who is the director of finance and administration.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 852

The Chair

John Ningark

Welcome to the committee. We are on page 9-20, educational development, total operation and maintenance. Total operation and maintenance in this activity is $151,487,000. Agreed?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 852

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 852

The Chair

John Ningark

Mr. Roland .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 852

Floyd Roland

Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to get some information from the Minister on the practice of high school graduates graduating after the exams have been done. A concern was raised in the community I represent that, during the graduation ceremonies, although there appears to be a

large number of graduates, that actually is not the fact. Is there a policy or standard in that area? Thank you.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. The honourable Minister. Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, each board sets its own policy for when the graduation ceremonies are held. It has been common practice in many jurisdictions in North America, to hold grad ceremonies in the spring even though the final marks are typically not back for the grads. There are some jurisdictions that have chosen to have their grad ceremonies in the fall. For instance, I know I was invited to a grad ceremony in Rankin, during the Thanksgiving weekend this past fall. They decided to have their grad ceremonies following receipt of the final marks. It is a decision that is left up to each of the boards.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. The honourable Member for Inuvik . Mr. Roland .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

Floyd Roland

Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Once again in the area of graduates, the concern raised is not the timing of when the ceremonies are, it is the number of people actually taking

part in the ceremony as graduates having to come back the following year to finish off their courses. Again, that lends to the concern of the quality of the certificate when it is given out. Is there anything there when it comes to the actual graduating class and do you have to be graduating that year? Is that a policy of this government or of the boards? Thank you.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 853

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A grad ceremony which takes place before marks are back is just a ceremony. The graduation certificates are only signed and distributed after a person has actually achieved the 100 credits necessary for graduation to officially take place. The statistics that the department uses are based on successful completion of graduation and not in any way based on the number of people who participate in a ceremony. I think it is important we understand that the ceremonial occasion does not necessarily mean all of the requirements for successful graduation have been met.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Roland .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

Floyd Roland

Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My concern is not only with the graduation process itself, but the quality of it and lending to that concern would be the idea of the automatic pass system. I know that would not affect the actual graduation itself, the certificate, because you have to achieve the 100 credits. For the rest of the program, you are allowed to follow up through the system, is that a policy of this government?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, the government does not set a policy in that area. It is left again to each of the divisional education councils to set their own policy.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. We have Mr. Henry and Mr. Picco . Mr. Henry .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister told us yesterday, and I think he mentioned a figure, I do not recall it right offhand, a large percentage increase in the number of students attending school in communities since schools were raised to Grade 12. My question to the Minister is, does he have figures on what the graduation rate increased, if any, in the last number of years? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

The Chair

John Ningark

Qujannamiik. The honourable Minister. Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the graduation rate for aboriginal students more than doubled in the period of 1991-1995. The overall graduation rate has not doubled but has continued to increase over that period of time, probably in the area of five to ten percent, I would guess.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

The Chair

John Ningark

Qujannamiik. Educational development, Mr. Henry .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Thank you. So, the participation rate has increased, has doubled, but the graduation rate is up by between five and ten percent? Maybe the Minister could provide those statistics, broken down by community or whatever way he has them available to him. Does he have figures, say from 1991-95, on the number of students that go on to further education? I am not particularly talking about trades, on to college or university. Does he have figures in that area? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The number that carry on to post-secondary studies will take some time to be provided to this committee. In response to the Member's first part of the question, the participation rate is a measure of how many eligible students are attending school. So, in 1991, we had just over 40 percent of those who should be in school attending school. In this year, we have over 80 percent of those who are of school age actually attending school.

The graduation rate will not automatically increase because you have to remember that a number of students will have come back into the system in Grades 10 and 11 and will not yet have achieved graduation. So, there will be a lag of two or three years behind the increase in the participation rate to the graduation rate.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 853

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Are you okay on that, Mr. Henry ? Okay. Thank you. We have Mr. Picco .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 853

Edward Picco

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, under educational development, I see public libraries are also mentioned here. I would like to bring up the situation regarding the proposed restructuring of library funding and also the proposed elimination of the regional librarian positions. The regional librarian position trains the community librarians and also adds support to the community librarians, most of which are part-time and volunteers in the smaller communities. I wonder if the Minister could tell me who will be providing ongoing training and support to the smaller libraries outside

the regional centre, when we have no more regional librarians?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 854

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 854

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in every region right now, other than the Keewatin and the Baffin, the responsibility for that is taken on by the regional superintendent with assistance from the libraries branch based in Hay River.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 854

The Chair

John Ningark

Qujannamiik. Mr. Picco .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 854

Edward Picco

Iqaluit

Thank you. So, the Minister is telling me that the regional superintendent of the Baffin, for example, will fly into Pond Inlet, Clyde River, Igloolik, to train and help support the volunteer, in some cases, or part-time community librarian. Is that correct?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 854

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. The honourable Minister for Education, Culture and Employment . Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 854

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would expect that in face to face visits to communities, the regional superintendents would be able to assist with that. I think it is necessary to remember that a lot of the assistance can still be provided by the library technicians who will still be resident. It is also important to point out that training sessions have not been as formal as the Member might think. There were no training sessions or training seminars in 1996, for instance. Most of the assistance that is required can be provided either by telephone, fax or electronic mail. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 854

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. The honourable Member for Iqaluit . Mr. Picco .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 854

Edward Picco

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I think we are missing something here on the regional librarian positions. I think what we are missing on the regional librarian positions is the work that they have done outside of the regional centre. I know, for example, in my community, the regional librarian would go to Clyde, would go to Igloolik, to set up libraries. Then they are also flying in and out of those communities to add that support. In a lot of cases where the small community libraries have just been set up, they get their books from the regional library.

The referral service helps them set up the Dewey Decimal System and so on. I am not convinced by the Minister that a library technician, who is actually based in our community library in Iqaluit, is now going to be going out to continue that type of on-site help for the community libraries. So, is the Minister telling me that the library technician, it sounds like a "yes" position, is now going to be providing part of the logistic help the regional librarian was providing? Is that correct and what percentage?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 854

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 854

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, given the fiscal situation, there is no question that travel is going to be reduced. Face to face meetings in all departments are less frequent. I would maintain that the past two years have proven that the regional superintendents have effectively taken over the duties of assisting local libraries to perform their function within the other regions and, should a major new project be undertaken, headquarters would deliver extensive on-site training. The ongoing training can be maintained by the regional library technician at the regional level.

It has to be remembered that, in addition, headquarters is available to assist by telephone, fax and electronic mail. Thank you.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 854

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Education development. Final supplementary, Mr. Picco .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 854

Edward Picco

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, a professional librarian is a person who of course has graduated from university, has the necessary training in the filing, the Dewey Decimal System we talked about before. The community librarian positions are often part-time and the person hired usually does not have much experience in working in a library. This makes the role of the regional librarian more essential to maintaining the community library services.

My follow up question to the Minister on this area is: with the advent of Nunavut in April 1, 1999, one of the key areas the NIC has recommended to this government is having a library service set up. By eliminating the library position today, it means we will have to rehire and restructure that position for tomorrow. I think that is dumb planning on behalf of this government. I do not think it is strategic. I do not think it is acceptable. Mr. Todd is agreeing with me.

My follow up question now to the Minister concerning the regional librarian position is: what about the Legislative Library that is currently trying to be set up in the capital of Nunavut, with all the duplicate files being sent over, who will be maintaining the system? Who will be filing the system? Who will be doing that work? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 854

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Picco . Mr. Todd is a very understanding man.

-- Applause

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 854

The Chair

John Ningark

Mr. Minister.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 854

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, if money was not limited, we probably would have librarians in every community who had graduated from university and we would have large libraries in every community. In fact we do not. We have found, given the fiscal climate, we are able to deliver satisfactory service in other regions. Making the change we propose to make in Nunavut and the Keewatin is a result of the fiscal climate in which we are forced to operate these days.

In response to the Member's direct question about the Legislative Library, the Legislative Library for Nunavut will still have the assistance of the Legislative Library we have here in Yellowknife. That is the proper place for the library to get its assistance right now for Nunavut. If in fact, the interim commissioner believes it is necessary to set up such a position in advance of Nunavut coming into effect, it is entirely the responsibility of the person who fills the position to set such a library up. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 854

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. We are reviewing the Department of Education Culture and Employment. We have on the list, Mr. Erasmus , Mr. Ootes , and Mr. Miltenberger . Mr. Erasmus .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the Minister's opening address he indicated the department is continuing to participate in the National School Achievement Indicators Program which assess the students in the areas of math, reading, writing, and science. Unfortunately, this testing does not indicate to us which students are up to the national level, and which ones are under, although it does give us an indication of an overall picture. How come the system does not allow us to find out where the successful students and the unsuccessful students are in relation to these particular tests?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, it is a national program which is designed to provide a Canadian wide information base to assist Departments of Education across Canada to assess the performance of their education systems relative to others. It is not intended to be a measure of individual students success or failure. Given the tests are not normed for northern populations, it would be improper to put too much weight on the results. What they do is give us an idea of how our students are performing in relation to others in Canada. From that we can determine whether or not we need to expend some energy to strengthen our curriculum in certain areas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Erasmus .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What does "not normed for northern students" mean?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

The Chair

John Ningark

Qujannamiik. Mr. Minister.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

The Chair

John Ningark

Merci. Mr. Erasmus .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister indicated they would make adjustments based on the performance. How can you make adjustments if you do not know who was tested at the national level and who has not?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. The honourable Minister, Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

We have worked at strengthening the whole numeracy and literacy curriculum to try and improve the results of our students in the territories. We are not trying to use the results to say one school is performing better than another. What we are doing is trying to assess how the curriculum in general is performing in the Northwest Territories. The individual school results are measured by the divisional education councils and the superintendents by making sure the students in each grade are performing to the levels set in the existing curriculum and by watching for problem areas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Erasmus .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Are there some areas that are not affected by cultural differences? Course areas, for instance math as compared to social studies.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. All areas would be affected, particularly by linguistic background, in test performance. The cultural background would have a different level, depending on the subject area, of importance. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Erasmus .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If all areas are affected then I find it difficult to understand why we would not try to find a way how we can test these students and compare them to each other. We will then know where the students have not actually met the national standard and where the students have met the national standard.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

The Chair

John Ningark

Qujannamiik. Mr. Minister.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as I have said, grade 12 graduation requires students to take departmental exams which we share with Alberta. We do get a comparison at the grade 12 level as to how our students are doing with a southern jurisdiction. To develop our own testing for ages 13 to 16 would be very expensive. The development of the tests would be expensive, administering them would be expensive. You are still left with only one test getting only a snapshot. It is much better to assess a students performance because of the different learning styles people have over the course of a year.

That is why each of the divisional education councils and their superintendents are tasked with watching students' performance throughout the school year. To ensure they are meeting the levels expected that are set out in the existing curriculum. I think we have a relatively good system of assessing how our students are doing in the north. The amount of money it would take to set up a valid testing process, I would argue, is much better spent getting resources into the classroom. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 855

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. That was a final supplementary for the honourable Mr. Erasmus for the time being. We are reviewing the 1997/98 main estimates of the

government, Department of Education, Culture and Employment. We are on the activity educational development. We have Mr. Ootes , Mr. Miltenberger , and Mr. Henry . Mr. Ootes .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understand the system through out the territories uses an automatic passing system. I wonder if the Minister could explain it to me, what it is and how it works?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

The Chair

John Ningark

Mr. Minister.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not know if that is the system used throughout the territories. Whether or not a student is progressed on to the next grade is something that is handled by each of the divisional education councils and divisional education authorities in the Northwest Territories. The Member wants to know why some do it. Being a non-educator, I am not sure if I am qualified to give all the arguments for why it is considered to be more appropriate to keep students within their age group, rather than making students repeat.

I do know that from what I have read, the success rate of students who are forced to repeat a grade is close to nil. Therefore, there does not seem to be much point in forcing students to repeat. Perhaps by keeping a student in school and progressing with their age group, they have a better chance of picking up some of the skills that will help them be more successful in life, even if they have not successfully concluded the previous year. I can only offer that as a possible explanation, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Ootes .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. While I appreciate the Minister's comments and explanation of that, statistically in 1991, we had 1,589 students in senior high and in 1995/96, we had 3,371. In other words, more than double the number of students in senior high. When I look at the graduation figures of senior high, they have not substantially changed. In 1990, it was 203. Then in 1992/93, it did jump to 254, but there has been no change in '94/95. There are only 273 graduates. These students are progressed on by each educational authority and because the department has to put in exams at grade 12, could it be these students are just not meeting the requirements?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I explained in response to Mr. Henry , the participation rate typically leads the graduation rate by a significant portion of time. What we have found when we have offered grade 10, for instance, in a community where it was never offered before, where we might have expected there would be two, three, or four students carrying on from grade nine to grade 10, we have received not only those two, three, or four students, but another ten who are in the community, who had dropped out of a residential school. The participation rate has gone up significantly.

We have received a lot of students back into the system who had already left the system. It will take some time for those graduation numbers to improve. Again, some of them may not complete grade 12, but it does not mean they are not further ahead for having completed grades 10 and 11. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Ootes .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, I appreciate the Minister's explanation. Yes, I agree with him. It is important to get students back into the system. Really, if we do not have some sort of criteria by which they are evaluated - students seem to be progressed by each authority. When they do have an exam, such as the departmental exams, they are not able to graduate the numbers. This says to me that all through the system there are some tremendous shortcomings. Even though we have so many students in grade 11, if they cannot meet certain criteria, then why would they be in grade 11 or grade 10?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 856

The Chair

John Ningark

Qujannamiik. Mr. Minister.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Educational development. We have Mr. Miltenberger , Mr. Henry , and Mr. Picco . Mr. Miltenberger .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. About distance education technology, could the Minister indicate the involvement his department is going to have in the construction and building of the digital backbone that has been referred to in this House many times?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

The Chair

John Ningark

The honourable Minister, Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As a department, we have no direct involvement in the construction of that system. The department will participate on the program side and as a member of the steering committee, overseeing the implementation of the system.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. The honourable Member for Thebacha , Mr. Miltenberger .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Will the Minister and his officials have input into the system design, so it will be adequate for the present and future needs of the department?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 856

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you Mr. Chairman. The department was actively involved in working on the committee that set the terms of reference for the system, and the system will be installed according to those terms of reference. Thank you.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Miltenberger .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Does the Minister know if the technology used is going to be the most state of the art? For example, the use of fibre optics as opposed to copper wire?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I expect that the initial installations we are talking about involve typically three locations in a community, the school, library and the municipal office. Based on that, the initial expectation is that it will be coaxal cable that will be installed, not necessarily fibre optics in the smallest of communities.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Miltenberger .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Is the Minister reasonably confident that in fact we will be partners in putting in a system that will not be obsolete technically, before it is even installed; that there is potential or a capacity to move with the technology which advances as it seems to at a very quick pace; that we are not putting all our money in something that is technically obsolete or will be very quickly?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, from what we have seen of the design of the system and in the evaluation which did include an assessment of an ability to take on improvements over time, we are satisfied that it will meet our needs, as far as we can project them, at this point.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. The final supplementary, Mr. Miltenberger .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister elaborate briefly on the million dollar re-investment in distance technology that is ear-marked in the budget?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The million dollars that we have identified is for a combination of capital facilities to ensure schools are prepared to receive the signal from the satellite and distribute it throughout the school. Therefore, it is typically capital improvements for networking within the schools and for training to make sure people in the schools are prepared to take advantage of the service, once it is available.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

The Chair

John Ningark

Qujannamiik. Mr. Henry . Are you next on the list?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

I have a question on the National School Achievement Indicator Program. I think I understand where the Minister is coming from and how difficult it is to separate a school or an area as to the results but if the Minister could give me a little background as to the number of schools that participated in this program, the number of students who participated, the subjects that were tested and the grades that were tested. I know he talked about an age group earlier but if he could specifically talk about grades.

Are all the students in a school tested, or just a little more background would be beneficial for everyone if we had that background, to know and accept that it is very difficult to give results of individual schools or districts. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would be happy to provide the Member with some of the technical background on some of the School Achievement Indicators Program which would answer some of those questions. I do not have all of that information with me.

The program is aimed across Canada, not at a grade level but at age 13 and age 16. That is so we can find out whether at that age, students are achieving at similar levels because grades are different in each of the jurisdictions, with some jurisdictions having 11, 12 or 13 years of what is considered primary school. We can not say just a certain grade level across Canada, that is the reason for that age being set. The program across Canada would be very expensive and for us to be able to find out how our individual schools are doing, we would have to leave the program and conduct our own tests.

Basically all of the jurisdictions have agreed that in order to keep the costs as low as possible, the results would not be used to try and target one school over another. The schools are not identified to the markers and the results are not then tabulated, according to region they come from. They are given back to all of the provinces and territories on the same basis.

The program and cash cost to us is around $4,000, because the federal government contributes the majority of the funding and all of the provincial contributions are on a per-capita basis. We pay a very small amount to participate in this program.

The Member asked what kind of test had been undertaken. The most recent ones were for science. Previous to that there was a test in mathematics. The previous year there was one in language arts. The program was initially set up three years ago to run on a three year cycle, which would include those three areas. We are now entering the second, three year cycle. Human Resources Canada has just committed to continue their funding for this program, so we will be continuing with an annual test for math, language arts and three years down the road, another one for science.

Ministers of Education have suggested to Human Resources Development Canada we should look at adding a test which would examine students knowledge of new technology. In terms of how many schools and how many students were tested in the Northwest Territories, I will have to get that specific information to the Member, with the technical background I have offered.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Henry .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 857

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

I guess the reason that I wanted to know specifically how many schools and the number of students within a school would lead me into the next part you were talking about in your opening remarks. To improve student achievements, we need to know how students are doing in key subject areas. Really by not being able to decide what jurisdictions or schools are doing well, you may in fact be telling students as you are in the Northwest Territories, that we are scoring low on a national level in science, when in fact a school district or even a school could be doing extremely well,

and you are still telling them, we are doing low. That would not be an accurate statement. That was why I was looking for the information about how many schools participated. Was it one in each region, or just a couple of schools. There were four students participating in the whole program. That was the reason for looking at that type of information, but I definitely have a concern here that you may be telling all the schools and all the students in the Northwest Territories we are below average in our science, you know the results prove it,

whereas in fact there could be a lot of schools and a lot of students doing extremely well. Thank you.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 858

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Was there a question? Perhaps Mr. Minister wanted to respond.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 858

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have been very careful when talking about the School Achievement Indicators Program, to say that it does not indicate very much more than give us a snapshot of broad performance and indicate if we may have a need to strengthen our curriculum broadly across the Territories to address what may be a problem. I think the Member is right, we have to be very cautious with how any sort of test result is used.

That is why I am much more comfortable saying the divisional education councils and the superintendents are the ones who are responsible for assessing performance on an ongoing basis and ensuring students in the Northwest Territories are achieving at the levels expected by the curriculum we have set.

The School Achievement Indicators Program is only one small part of the information we have. We do not react just to that part, we use it for what it is, a tool we use to assess how our students across the Territories are doing. I do not think anyone in the department or the ministry forgets that it does not tell how an individual is performing or how one school may be performing in relation to another. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 858

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Educational development. Mr. Henry .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 858

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Minister for that. It certainly would alleviate my concern to the question I raised in his comments and I do believe he did allude to it previously and it did not strike home until now, that individual superintendents can advise students in a particular school or a particular district how they are doing. So I thank him for that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 858

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. We have Mr. Picco and Mr. Erasmus . We are on page 9-20 of Education, Culture and Employment, educational development. Mr. Picco .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 858

Edward Picco

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to go back to the regional librarian positions with a few more questions I did not have a chance to ask the Minister. I guess we should back up and look at the history of the regional librarian positions. The positions were created because there was a need in the regions for a provider and co-ordinator of all the services that could not be offered by community libraries. The library headquarters in Hay River could not meet the needs adequately both due to distance and not knowing the communities intimately.

My question to the Minister is who will provide that co-ordination? He had said it was going to be the superintendents of ECE. I think the superintendents for ECE are quite busy, as demonstrated by their meeting here this week. Is there going to be extra funding available in the department of ECE to provide the ongoing support to the community libraries that the regional librarian was supporting?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 858

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 858

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Member is right in that our regional superintendents are busy people. More and more demands are being placed upon all of our government staff in these difficult fiscal times because we have had to reduce the total number of staff we have. They have demonstrated