Debates of March 2nd, 2001

This is page numbers 1459 - 1499 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was community .

Topics

Members Present

Item 1: Prayer

Non-renewable Resource Development Strategy

Impacts On Fish Stocks In Deh Cho Lakes

Federal Fuel Subsidy Clawback

Supplying North Slave Communities

A Tale Of A National Energy Program

Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Programs And Services For Seniors

Municipal Insurance Premiums

Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Concerns With The Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Comments On The Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Inuvialuit Regional Corporation Hockey Tournament

Workshop On Alcohol And Drug Awareness Education

Comments On The Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Fuel Rebate Program

Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Calculation Of Income Thresholds

Fuel Rebate Inequities

Fuel Rebate Guidelines

Fuel Rebate Administration

Calculation Of Household Income

Revert To Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Revert To Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Tabled Document 112-14(3): Non-renewable Resource Development Strategy

Tabled Document 113-14(3): Reports And Recommendations Of The 2000 Judicial Remuneration Commission, February 1, 2001

Tabled Document 114-14(3): Comparison Of Cost Of Heating Fuel With Income Thresholds And Living Cost Differentials

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Sports And Recreation

Volunteerism

Community Governance Capacity

Capital Planning Process

Extraordinary Funding V. Supplementary Appropriation

Taxation

Item 20: Report Of The Committee Of The Whole

Item 22: Orders Of The Day

Members Present

Honourable Roger Allen , Honourable Jim Antoine , Mr. Bell , Mr. Braden , Mr. Delorey , Mr. Dent , Honourable Jane Groenewegen , Honourable Joe Handley , Mr. Krutko , Mr. Lafferty , Ms. Lee , Honourable Stephen Kakfwi , Mr. McLeod , Mr. Miltenberger , Mr. Nitah , Honourable Jake Ootes , Mr. Roland , Honourable Vince Steen , Honourable Tony Whitford .

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-- Prayer

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 1459

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Merci pour le prayer, Mr. Allen . Bonjour, mon colleagues. Good morning, colleagues. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Déclarations de ministre. The honourable Minister responsible for Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development , Mr. Handley .

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Minister's Statement 68-14(3): Non-renewable Resource Development Strategy

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 1459

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Government of the Northwest Territories has finalized our strategy to stimulate comprehensive and coordinated action and investment in non-renewable resource development by federal, territorial and aboriginal governments.

The Non-Renewable Resource Development Strategy was developed at the encouragement of federal Finance Minister Paul Martin. First released in draft form last spring, the strategy underscores the urgency of the need to promote, prepare for and manage non-renewable resource development in the Northwest Territories.

Since the document was first released, our government has sought input from all stakeholders. These comments have been used to continually update and improve the strategy. It is the only comprehensive plan of action for non-renewable resource development that identifies all the issues that need to be addressed, irrespective of which government is responsible. The GNWT has been advocating the use of the Non-Renewable Resource Development Strategy as a coordinating mechanism for discussion, decision making and action.

We have also used the strategy to argue for increased federal investment and to guide our actions and investment in areas of responsibility.

Total federal investment to date has been limited to $3.8 million in winter road bridge construction. Mr. Speaker, in the context of the $235 million in required investments that we requested, this is a pittance. It is our hope that the finalization of the strategy will give the federal government the impetus it needs to take action, especially given their continued responsibility for northern development. As well, the federal government needs to move forward aggressively with the territorial and aboriginal governments on devolution and resource revenue sharing.

Mr. Speaker, after almost a year of discussion and consultation, it is time to finalize the Non-Renewable Resource

Development Strategy. Now, we must fully direct our efforts to dealing with the actions outlined in the strategy.

In tabling this final strategy, I wish to reaffirm this government's commitment to continue to invest in the actions outlined in the Non-Renewable Resource Development Strategy to the greatest extent possible. Furthermore, I call upon the federal government to join with us in making investment decisions now and working in partnership with us and aboriginal governments to see the strategy carried out. Thank you.

-- Applause

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Minister's Statement 68-14(3): Non-renewable Resource Development Strategy

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 1459

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Merci, Mr. Handley . Declarations de ministre. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Declarations de deputes. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Deh Cho , Mr. McLeod .

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Impacts On Fish Stocks In Deh Cho Lakes

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1459

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the fishery at Tathlina and Kakisa Lakes are in trouble. Over the last few years, there has been a noticeable decrease in the pickerel stocks resulting in an increased catch effort. The problem is so bad that all but one commercial fisherman has left the lakes. Even this one commercial fisherman is not catching enough fish to make the effort worthwhile.

In 1979, there was a study done in the fish stocks in Tathlina and Kakisa Lakes. The study resulted in a rise on the quota on Kakisa Lake and the quota at Tathlina Lake was cut in half.

Mr. Speaker, the quota is 20,000 kilograms at both lakes combined. There has been no increase in the quota for 22 years. There has never been a problem in obtaining the quota. Sometimes the quota has been caught in as little as three to four weeks.

Lately, Mr. Speaker, one week of fishing has resulted in two boxes of fish. A large percentage of these fish are not even pickerel. Last summer, the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans did a study in cooperation with the Kakisa Dene Band on the fish stocks at Kakisa Lake. DFO provided two technicians and made contact with the band to provide boats and assistance. Together, they tested the fish stocks using nets with four different mesh sizes and samplings of various strategic locations on the lake. An analysis on the study is due back towards the end of March.

This summer, DFO intends to do a similar study at Tathlina Lake. Further, the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, in conjunction with DFO, has been taking random samplings from Tathlina and Kakisa Lakes fish for the past 20 years. With all of these tests, we should have some solid evidence as to when the problem began, if not the cause of the problem.

Mr. Speaker, our northern environment is very fragile. After 22 years of testing, monitoring and abiding by the quotas with no problem, all of a sudden there is a problem we have to look at. We have to look at the effects of logging, global warming, acid rain, oil and gas exploration and other potential hazards to the environment.

Mr. Speaker, not only are the fish at Tathlina and Kakisa Lakes a valuable resource in terms of a commercial fishery, they are a mainstay in the diet of the people of Kakisa. The fish are a valuable resource that we cannot afford to lose. Further, if we are losing the fish, we would have to suspend our common sense not to see that we are losing our lakes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

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Impacts On Fish Stocks In Deh Cho Lakes

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1460

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. McLeod . Declarations de deputes. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Great Slave , Mr. Braden .

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Federal Fuel Subsidy Clawback

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1460

Bill Braden

Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am going to interrupt normal programming here and bring you a news bulletin from the real world. It is the real world of the income support client of this government. Mr. Speaker, we are dealing with an issue where Dogrib beneficiaries are having the $500 impact benefit agreement taken back from them, but now we learn that the income support clients are also having the federal fuel subsidy of $125 clawed back. This is a non-taxable, one-time gift from the federal government to help low and modest income families, Mr. Speaker, with the rising cost of heating and fuel.

What really hurts, Mr. Speaker, is that some of these clients are receiving no notice whatsoever that this is being clawed back. We have situations where there are families, perhaps two clients trying to look after their families and kids, losing with no notice whatsoever, $250 off of their monthly payments. One disappointed client has said if it is going to be clawed back, why even give it in the first place?

Mr. Speaker, in Yellowknife, income support recipients receive $162 a month for food, or $5.22 a day. Have you ever tried to subsist on this? There are no diapers, no Enfalac, no soap, no cleaning and personal hygiene materials in this food basket. As a result of the clawback of this one-time federal, tax-free home heating fuel payment, some mothers are getting cheques for three bucks this month, Mr. Speaker, three dollars. Others get nothing for food.

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Federal Fuel Subsidy Clawback

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1460

Some Hon. Members

Shame, shame.

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Federal Fuel Subsidy Clawback

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1460

Bill Braden

Great Slave

Women are crying in the offices of the Salvation Army, the food banks and the Women's Centre. You know, Mr. Speaker, it is amazing to consider inmates in the Yellowknife Correctional Centre get a food, clothing and laundry allowance of up to a maximum of $150 a month. Some of them are also receiving the federal government's fuel subsidy. Do you think this is being clawed back?

Mr. Speaker, I am going to be having questions for the Minister responsible for Education, Culture and Employment at the appropriate time.

-- Applause

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Federal Fuel Subsidy Clawback

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1460

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Braden . Declarations de deputes. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for North Slave , Mr. Lafferty .

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Supplying North Slave Communities

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1460

Leon Lafferty

North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, there have been public announcements in the paper that the Rae Lakes winter road will be closed on March 15th. Today is March 2nd and the road is not expected to open for another five days. At best, the winter road to Rae Lakes will be open for eight days. More likely, if it opens at all, it will only be for three or four days.

Communities are highly dependent on winter roads. For example, Rae Lakes is going to build a community office complex and all the materials are waiting to be sent up on the winter road. Unless the roof trusses are brought in on the ice road, the project will be delayed for another year. There is no plane big enough to carry the trusses for this complex. As well as the construction materials for the office complex, three houses, fuel and a large quantity of groceries are also to be sent up on the road.

Traditionally, the winter road to Rae Lakes has opened by the end of January and stayed open for six weeks. This has allowed enough time to bring in a substantial amount of goods. Weather patterns are changing and the lack of this valuable transportation route has serious economic and social implications for the community of Rae Lakes. As I have stated many times, we need to adapt to the changing weather conditions. We can no longer rely on winter roads. In this situation, we can be proactive, and for the short term, develop an all-land winter road to Wha Ti and Rae Lakes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

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Supplying North Slave Communities

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1460

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Frame Lake , Mr. Dent .

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A Tale Of A National Energy Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1460

Charles Dent

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, earlier this week the Minister of Finance was accused of not having compassion in his heart when he developed the Fuel Rebate Program, and apparently not hearing the concerns that were expressed by Members on this side of this House. Since it is Friday, I thought maybe if the arguments were presented in a fairy story, he might get it.

Once upon a time, Mr. Speaker, in a kingdom not far away, in fact just down the road from reason, the rulers around the governors' table decreed that too much woe had befallen the citizens of the kingdom. Prices had risen too high for heating and motor products. The rulers around the governors' table, being good and considerate rulers, were sensitive to how their subjects, especially those of lower income, suffered.

The rulers around the governors' table desired to deal with their faithful subjects' woes, so announced a program that would help many citizens in the land. In their haste to deliver relief to their faithful subjects, the rulers had undertaken no consultation. They moved with alacrity and named the program the national energy program.

And verily, many residents in the land were pleased, particularly those who lived in an eastern region of the land called Ontario. Low and behold, some of the rulers' faithful subjects, particularly those who lived in the western regions of the land, came to find that they actually suffered more as a result of the program. They cried out to the rulers around the governors' table, whose council was in Ontario, beseeching that the program be changed so as not to hurt them.

The rulers heard these cries for help. They wrung their hands and said they had not meant to harm any of their faithful subjects. They convened around their table, then came out to make a pronouncement. They said, "We hear the cries of our loyal subjects from the west, but we must keep this program for it helps many who are in need. Verily, it helps those who need it most, thus it is mostly good, and another program would be too complex and difficult to administer."

Mr. Speaker, those who found the program harsh, particularly in the western region of the land called Alberta, grew angry at their rulers, who said they heard them, had not truly listened with compassion in their hearts. The people began to assemble and exclaim out their battle cry, and I quote, "Let those eastern illegitimates..."

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A Tale Of A National Energy Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1461

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Mr. Dent , the time for your statement is over.

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A Tale Of A National Energy Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1461

Charles Dent

Frame Lake

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

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A Tale Of A National Energy Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1461

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to continue his statement. Are there any nays? There being no nays, Mr. Dent , you may give us

chapter two.

-- Laughter

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A Tale Of A National Energy Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1461

Charles Dent

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker and honourable Members. As I was saying, the people assembled and exclaimed out their battle cry, "Let those eastern illegitimates freeze in the dark."

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A Tale Of A National Energy Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1461

Some Hon. Members

Hear, hear.

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A Tale Of A National Energy Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1461

Charles Dent

Frame Lake

Mr. Speaker, discord and division grew across the land, and finally the people rose up and banished the rulers into exile for a while to contemplate the error of their ways, to practice their listening skills and to learn the value of consultation.

Mr. Speaker, I hope the moral of this fairy tale is not lost on those who set policy for this government's Fuel Rebate Policy. Northern residents expect a program that is fair, not one that has been hastily cobbled together simply because it is easy to administer and can be delivered quickly. Let us take a few extra days to do it right. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

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A Tale Of A National Energy Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1461

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Dent . Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe , Mr. Nitah .

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Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1461

Steven Nitah

Tu Nedhe

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my statement today is on the proposed fuel rebate. Mr. Speaker, in the haste of putting this together, I do not think the government thought it through.

In Fort Resolution, the fuel rebate income cutoff is $61,500. If you make more than that, you do not get the rebate. In Lutselk'e, the cutoff is $69,000. The price of home heating fuel in Lutselk'e is 97 cents, Mr. Speaker. However, the income cutoff for Yellowknife residents who qualify is $72,500. The home heating fuel cost in Yellowknife is 47 cents. Where is the sense in that?

Mr. Speaker, a lot of people will not qualify for this. People in the communities are short of housing, live together, and the combined income of one household brings them above the cutoff level. Nobody qualifies.

The government should rethink this. In fact, what the government should do with this money they want to spend before the end of this fiscal year is put it into tourism. Tourism needs money. Introduce the hotel tax that is going to penny pinch the people in the Northwest Territories for $1.3 million. There is about $1.4 million that the government wants to spend. Let us put it into tourism. People do not see the effects. With this rebate, only a few people in the Northwest Territories qualify. Let us put it into tourism, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

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Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1461

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Nitah . Declarations de deputes. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , Mr. Krutko .

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Programs And Services For Seniors

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1461

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I received a call just lately from an 80-year-old elder who is living in her own home, who is struggling to keep up with the increased rates of diesel fuel and power. I think it is important to realize the cost to fill up your tank with diesel fuel in Fort McPherson is $700. When you are on a pension, that is unacceptable.

Mr. Speaker, we have put initiatives in place to assist our elders who live in their own homes. We encourage them to continue to live in their own homes. However, with the high cost of power, the high cost of property taxes, and with the cost of fuel in our communities, our elders are finding it unbearable to maintain their own homes and also have a lifestyle where they can live in comfort, knowing they have done their time and they have paid their dues.

Mr. Speaker, this government has put programs in place to assist our elders, yet this 80-year-old elder continues to pay her property taxes. Mr. Speaker, we as a government have to ensure the programs and services we have out there are being administered. We have to make the attempt to find a mechanism so elders do not have to phone their MLAs to find out why they are still paying their property taxes, or why are they not receiving their seniors' fuel subsidy, or why their property taxes have been adjusted or increased, yet they continue to pay out of their pension cheques.

Mr. Speaker, I think it is important that this government streamline our tax systems or subsidized systems, so people do not have to continue year after year to have the confusion of getting a tax notice in the mail, especially our elders. They do not like to be stuck in a situation where they have an outstanding bill or fee, knowing they may not have the money to survive next month. Or they are out of fuel and have no choice but to fill up their tanks, yet it comes out of their pension cheques.

Mr. Speaker, I will be asking the Minister of MACA questions on this matter to see exactly how we are streamlining our subsidy programs for our elders. Thank you.

-- Applause

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Programs And Services For Seniors

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1462

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . Declarations de deputes. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Thebacha , Mr. Miltenberger .

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Municipal Insurance Premiums

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1462

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, last week in this House, I raised the issue of the potential massive increases to municipalities with their general liability insurance. As it has turned out, it has in fact been massive. It has been almost so exponential that obviously the insurance companies, who see an opportunity for some windfall profits using the reason and excuse of Walkerton, have decided to really take a piece out of the hide of the municipalities.

Mr. Speaker, we are talking big dollars. In my community, the increase is almost 70 to 80 percent, almost $80,000. I understand Yellowknife's rates are going from $250,000 to almost $500,000. Every other community is going to have a similar increase.

Mr. Speaker, this is a significant cost. It is over $1 million for the whole Northwest Territories and all of the communities. This is at a time when there have been fuel increases, there are going to be power increases, there have been fee increases of various kinds. Mr. Speaker, it is unanticipated. I hope Municipal and Community Affairs will be looking at this very seriously.

There are some other far-reaching implications, Mr. Speaker. If, for example, a major player like Yellowknife decides they are going to take their business elsewhere and try to find insurance at a cheaper rate somewhere else, then there is a good possibility that the NWTAM will cease to exist as we know it. It will also mean the current insurance plan will cease to exist as we know it because without Yellowknife as the anchor tenant of the program, I understand there are not enough dollars to keep the plan going.

We are going to have a significant situation. Mr. Speaker, we are also faced with another harsh reality. The harsh reality is that of time. The current insurance plan lapses or concludes at the end of March, which gives us less than a month to work out a satisfactory affordable solution to this very serious problem. Later today when we review the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, I will be asking the Minister how he intends to put his shoulder to the wheel and work with the communities to try to resolve this very serious problem. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Municipal Insurance Premiums

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1462

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger . Declarations de deputes. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Hay River North , Mr. Delorey .

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Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1462

Paul Delorey

Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my Member's statement today was going to be on a different topic, but due to the building interest in the Fuel Subsidy Program, I thought I better make a few comments on behalf of the residents of Hay River. I must admit that whenever the government comes up with an initiative to put money back to the residents of the Northwest Territories, it is pretty hard to be negative about it. I want to compliment the Minister for realizing the fact that the cost of living is going up in the Territories and we do have to help our residents.

I do have some concerns, Mr. Speaker, about the way the subsidy is going to be administered and who is going to be receiving this subsidy. We have set a cutoff in the neighbourhood of $72,000 for Hay River residents. I have a real concern with that, Mr. Speaker, because $72,000 is at best a middle-income earner, especially when you are looking at a household. To make a household income of $72,000, if you are maintaining a home, paying the fuel bills, maybe paying for one or two kids and maintaining a vehicle, that is not a lot of money, Mr. Speaker.

They, as well as everyone else, have to pay the bills every month and they get hit very hard. As a matter of fact, this country is probably built on the backs of middle-income earners. Whenever a tax comes along, they are the ones who get hit the hardest. Whenever subsidies come along, they are the first ones to get cut out of the process.

We have learned a lot, Mr. Speaker, recently about subsidies from the federal government when they put out their fuel subsidy and the way they went about it. They instantly said, "We will use the GST to administer this subsidy." Well, lo and behold, it was a great theory. However, when it hit the public, it did nothing but negative things in the news because the wrong people were getting it.

Here we are going to put out a fuel subsidy. I think we are rushing into who is going to be getting this fuel subsidy and how it is going to be administered. I think we should take a little more time on this one and make sure that when we administer it, we are going to be doing the best we can do with this subsidy.

I learned yesterday, Mr. Speaker, that the fishermen are now going to be getting this subsidy, but there are some questions around how they are going to be getting it. I have some concerns....

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Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1462

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Mr. Delorey , I had terminated your microphone. Please just ask again so it is on the record.

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Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1462

Paul Delorey

Hay River North

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

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Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1462

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Delorey . The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays, Mr. Delorey , you may continue.

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Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1463

Paul Delorey

Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the last couple of days, I raised some questions about the trappers getting this fuel subsidy and the fishermen not going to be getting it. I learned yesterday that the fishermen are now going to be getting this fuel subsidy. I have also learned that this fuel subsidy could possibly be coming out of the subsidy they had for freight rates, so there are some questions to be answered in that. I will be checking with the fishermen in Hay River this weekend to see how that is affected. Mr. Speaker, I really do believe we should take our time and relook at the administration of this program. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

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Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1463

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Delorey . Declarations de deputes. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South , Mr. Bell .

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Concerns With The Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1463

Brendan Bell

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to comment today on the proposed Fuel Rebate Program. Yesterday, I received a letter from the Minister of Finance telling me I basically had 24 hours to make some comments or suggestions and that was about it. I am going to reiterate some of the things I have said.

We need an equitable program, Mr. Speaker. We mentioned graduated rebates. We think this would help. It would still put the money into the hands of those who need it the most. They would get the most money, Mr. Speaker. Furthermore, unlike the current proposed program, it would not ignore 75 percent of our households.

I also think those paying fuel bills or those who have seen a rent increase should get the rebates. We should not just be putting this money out there with no rhyme or reason as to who should qualify. We are calling it a fuel rebate, Mr. Speaker, but I believe right now, there is a tenuous link at best to fuel prices.

I would like to comment on administration. In the administration package, it asks you to make a declaration that says, "I solemnly swear this is my household income" and furthermore, if you are not telling the truth, Mr. Speaker, it says the application might be rejected or you might have to give the money back.

I know the Finance Minister will say that 99 percent of people are honest. I believe him and I think that is true, but I am wondering why we could not have people include their income tax filing from last year, Mr. Speaker. There will be that small percentage of people who choose to file even though they are over the cutoff.

I had a constituent call me and said, "Listen, I make more money than the cutoff and I do not mind that I will not get the rebate, but I want to know the guy down the street making $120,000 a year is not going to be getting this," because we do not have the capacity to audit.

Mr. Speaker, I think the Minister has good intentions, but good intentions and a bus pass will get you on the bus, Mr. Speaker. I think this deserves more than a quick and dirty approach. We certainly cannot put up a sign that says free money and expect the program to administer itself. There has to be a direct link to those who have felt fuel price increases this year. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

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Concerns With The Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1463

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Bell . Declarations de deputes. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake , Mr. Roland .

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Comments On The Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1463

Floyd Roland

Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my Member's statement today will also centre around the fuel rebate that is being considered. As a Member of this Assembly, I was given a package yesterday morning to make comments on by noon today, and hopefully have a chance to make some changes. Unfortunately, with our meeting schedules and our late sessions, I have not had the opportunity to put it in writing. Today will be an opportunity during the session to speak to the Minister and hopefully he will take some of the suggestions he is hearing and make the changes.

Mr. Speaker, we are a team here in the Northwest Territories. We have our first line sitting on the other side. Unfortunately, it seems our first line has put together an offensive package in the sense of a forward movement to try to get some goals for the Government of the Northwest Territories. Unfortunately, they have not shared their plan with the defensive line as to how it would work and make sure the people of the Northwest Territories truly benefit.

Mr. Speaker, they are initially setting this up to put it forward. They have put a package together that is simply based on some of the existing programs and services that are delivered by this government. Unfortunately, that package does not fit with what is trying to be done here. I must applaud the Minister. He is trying to do something for the people of the Northwest Territories. He seems to be rushed by year end, as in March 31st, not as a new coming year.

Fuel prices will be just as high in April, Mr. Speaker. I think there is time, as Members have said, to work this out and get the details done properly so we can play as a team, not as opposition, as some would see it.

Mr. Speaker, when the housing numbers are set up, it is based on the cost of construction in a community or the cost of buying a home in a community. That is not quite the same as it would be for buying fuel in the community, as we have heard from Mr. Nitah from Tu Nedhe and the example he used. It is the same in many circumstances.

I think this needs to be reworked and retooled. Hopefully, the Minister is paying attention to the concerns raised and will take some of the suggestions. Thank you.

-- Applause

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Comments On The Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1463

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Roland . Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Nunakput , Mr. Steen .

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Inuvialuit Regional Corporation Hockey Tournament

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1463

Vince Steen

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today I wish to make a statement on the recent IRC Native Hockey Tournament. This is an annual event sponsored by the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation to encourage teamwork, sportsmanship and competition in the Inuvik region.

This year, the event took place February 22nd to February 25th in Inuvik, and consisted of two divisions. Five teams participated in the B division. They were the Paulatuk Wolverines, the Old Dogs and Youngbloods of Inuvik, the Tuk Red Warriors and for the first time, a team from Holman called the Holman Flyers.

Mr. Speaker, although the Holman Flyers put out an excellent performance, they were defeated in the finals by the Tuk Red Warriors. The score was 9 to 3 in favour of the Tuk team. In the A division, five teams competed as well, and consisted of the Deline Chiefs, the Paulatuk Storm, the Inuvik Huskies, the Posse and the E. Gruben's Transport team from Tuktoyaktuk.

Again, Mr. Speaker, the out-of-town teams made it to the finals with the Deline Chiefs going down in defeat to E. Gruben's Transport from Tuktoyaktuk by a score of 11 to 3.

On behalf of my constituents, I wish to thank the sponsors and all of the athletes who participated. In particular, the Nunakput teams from Tuktoyaktuk, Holman and Paulatuk, who put on such a strong performance. My congratulations to the Tuk team for bringing home the trophies. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

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Inuvialuit Regional Corporation Hockey Tournament

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1464

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Steen . Declarations de deputes. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes , Mr. Allen .

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Workshop On Alcohol And Drug Awareness Education

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1464

Roger Allen

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it certainly is a pleasure to talk about what happened at Ingamo Hall last weekend in terms of using...(inaudible)...workshop, which is appropriate to yesterday's theme.

This workshop was put on by the Red Parlour Squad, an aboriginal rap group from Alberta. The base for this workshop was to provide the delegates with alcohol and drug education and to talk about the importance of creating personal choice. Over 30 delegates attended this very motivational and information workshop and over 150 people attended the group's regional performance.

Mr. Speaker, I truly believe that events such as these allow us to target our young people at an early age to get the message out regarding the negative effects of alcohol and drugs. It is extremely important that we take a proactive approach in dealing with this ever-increasing problem. We have to demonstrate that as individuals we all have the opportunity to make our own personal choices which will make our lives better. I applaud the fine efforts of Ingamo Hall to help us get this important message out to our young people who are adversely affected. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

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Workshop On Alcohol And Drug Awareness Education

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1464

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Allen . Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Range Lake , Ms. Lee .

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Comments On The Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1464

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a couple of comments on the fuel rebate draft policy. Mr. Speaker, I have had a chance to review it and I just want to give my feedback. Mr. Speaker, I believe that we should remember that this is a fuel rebate and not a one-time, arbitrary income supplement. The driving force behind it has to be an understanding that every family and business is hurting from the high cost of fuel. We have to figure out a way to help them fairly and equitably within the limited resources we have. Also, Mr. Speaker, I think we have to remember that this is public money and we have a duty to spend it responsibly.

Mr. Speaker, as it is written, the fuel rebate has a number of gaps and it has a great potential to be highly inequitable and unfair. I will just give one example, Mr. Speaker. Under the current income threshold of $72,500 for Yellowknife, it is highly possible that a single person, a single professional who makes an annual income of $72,000, could qualify for either a $350 rebate or $150 rebate, depending on whether he or she lives in an apartment or a house. That is $72,000 income for one person. Where a family down the street, a family of four with two income earners and two children who makes $73,000 -- $500 above the threshold -- will not receive anything.

It is possible that this single person might have received a federal rebate of $125, so they will get $125 or $350 on top of that, depending on what it is. I do not want to deprive anyone of anything, but I think we have to look at the needs of working families and spread these limited resources equitably.

The last point I want to make, Mr. Speaker, is that I think everybody in Yellowknife knows that at this time of the fiscal year, government employees are out there spending money like crazy because they have to spend their budget, or they are giving out contracts. I think the Minister of Finance should discourage that. I see this as he is right in the forefront trying to spend the $1.4 million within the time limit. I think that is highly objectionable, Mr. Speaker. I am glad the Minister is willing to talk to us about this...

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Comments On The Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1464

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Ms. Lee , the time for your Member's statement has expired.

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Comments On The Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1464

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Mr. Speaker, may I have unanimous consent to conclude my statement?

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Comments On The Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1464

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee . The Member is seeking unanimous consent to conclude her statement. Are there any nays? There being no nays, Ms. Lee , you may conclude.

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Comments On The Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1464

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just want to conclude by saying that I do believe that the Minister's intentions are good. It is just something that we have to spend time to work out the wrinkles. I look forward to working with the Minister on that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Comments On The Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1464

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee . Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. The honourable Member for Weledeh , Mr. Handley .

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Return To Question 365-14(3): Update On Clean Water Initiatives

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 1464

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a Return to Oral Question asked by Mr. Krutko on February 22, 2001 regarding certification policies for water treatment plant operators and that our drinking water meets the standards set by national guidelines.

Various systems have been put in place in order to ensure that our drinking water is safe and meets the standards set by the national guidelines. These systems include regular water quality sampling, in accordance with the NWT Drinking Water Quality Sample Protocol, and immediate action by environmental health officers when water sampling results indicate a possible problem with the drinking water. Sampling results confirm that public water supplies in the NWT consistently conform to the Guidelines for Canadian Drinking Water Quality and the NWT Water Supply Regulations.

In the NWT, the certification of water treatment plant operators is not legislated. However, it is strongly encouraged. The Northwest Territories Water and Waste Association does provide voluntary certification. Certification of operators is based on a combination of formal education, experience, training and examination. Certification is also related to the classification of the facility where the operator is employed. Four classes of certification are provided: restricted small system classification, small system certification, and class 1 and class 2 water plant classifications. There are 43 certified water treatment plant operators in the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

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Return To Question 365-14(3): Update On Clean Water Initiatives

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 1465

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Handley . Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Weledeh , Mr. Handley .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 1465

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize Lee Selleck. I believe he is one of my constituents and a faithful, loyal media reporter. Thank you.

-- Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 1465

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Than you, Mr. Handley . Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. I would like to welcome Mr. Selleck to his usual position. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Deh Cho , Mr. McLeod .

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Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1465

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development . This question is with respect to the fishery at Tathlina Lake and at Kakisa Lake. You will recall my concerns raised in my Member's statement earlier. Mr. Speaker, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, as well as the community of Kakisa, are doing their part to ensure the fish in the lakes survive. The community is prepared to stop fishing for one, two or even three years to try to ensure the fish and the lakes survive. Mr. Speaker, the residents of Kakisa would forego a valuable resource from their traditional harvest of fish and commercial fisheries.

I would like to ask the Minister if this government is willing to do their part and provide a compensation package to the residents of Kakisa should they deem it necessary to implement a self-imposed moratorium on any fishing on Tathlina or Kakisa Lakes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1465

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. McLeod . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Handley .

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Return To Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1465

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, without knowing the specifics of what might be requested, if they do have a moratorium put in place, I can assure you that our government will do its

part in ensuring that whatever disruption happens has a minimal negative impact. Thank you.

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Return To Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1465

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. McLeod .

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Supplementary To Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1465

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Mr. Speaker, we have to look at the affects of logging, global warming, acid rain, oil and gas exploration and all their hazards to the environment and ultimately the lakes and the fish. The government has supported and participated in the West Kitikmeot/Slave Study.

Mr. Speaker, with regard to all the water in the Great Slave flowing through the Deh Cho, the resource communities in the Deh Cho have done a lot of research in the area already. In order to save the fish in the lakes, is the government prepared to match the effort of the West Kitikmeot/Slave Study and turn its resources towards a comprehensive and integrated study of the Deh Cho region?

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Supplementary To Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1465

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. McLeod . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Handley .

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Further Return To Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1465

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, on the West Kitikmeot/Slave Study, there are a number of partners, particularly government, industry and the aboriginal governments. The West Kitikmeot/Slave Study was slated to be completed this year. Whether or not we would continue with that particular study will depend on whether the other partners are also willing to continue. We would not be able to do it on our own. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1465

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. McLeod .

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Supplementary To Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1465

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The oil and gas industry, the logging industry, the pipeline industry, and other various industries are increasing the pressures to develop the Deh Cho region. At the same time, the environment is very fragile. One oil spill, one blow-out, the slightest environmental hazard can be devastating to the water hazard tables, rivers, lakes and the fish.

I would like to ask the Minister if he would consider having a meeting with the Deh Cho First Nations to discuss the environmental concerns in the region. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1466

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. McLeod . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Handley .

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Further Return To Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1466

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, certainly I would be pleased to meet with the Deh Cho leaders at their request. I might also say for the Member's information, I believe he is aware of it, that we are currently already doing one assessment of the oil and gas impact in the Liard area. A piece of that work is being done. Certainly I am interested in monitoring very carefully, not just the socio-economic, but also the environmental impact of any kind of development that is happening down our valley. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Question 431-14(3): Fish Stocks At Kakisa Lake

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1466

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Merci, Mr. Minister. Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South , Mr. Bell .

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Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1466

Brendan Bell

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Finance . As I indicated, I am trying to find some justification for calling this fuel rebate a fuel rebate. I cannot seem to find any rhyme or reason as to who qualifies from region to region. We make an assumption that rents have gone up across the board. Can the Minister please answer this, is this fuel rebate related to fuel prices?

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Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1466

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Bell . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Finance, Mr. Handley .

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Return To Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1466

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, as it is designed right now, yes, it is. Thank you.

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Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1466

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Minister Handley . Supplementary, Mr. Bell .

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Supplementary To Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1466

Brendan Bell

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If you look even at the Minister's riding, the people of Ndilo pay 47 cents a litre for home heating fuel, as do the people of Yellowknife. If you make $65,000 a year in your household in Ndilo, you do not qualify. If you make that in Yellowknife, you do. You have up to $72,500 to qualify. Why the discrepancy? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1466

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Bell . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Finance, Mr. Handley .

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Further Return To Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1466

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, in trying to find a formula that fits this particular need and program, which is meant to provide a rebate based on the cost of fuel, then we really have three choices unless we just arbitrarily create one. I will just go through them very quickly, Mr. Speaker.

We could have used the social assistance food scale, but that is only based on a sampling of food costs and has absolutely no relationship to heating costs or the costs of maintaining a home. It is just straight groceries. That is one scale that we have used. We also have various northern allowances for government employees, teachers and so on. We could use that, but that is heavily based on travel costs to go in and out of communities and so on. It is for a different purpose.

So what is the alternative? The closest alternative we came up with is the core-need income threshold formula. That one is based on a number of factors. Certainly the cost of a building and the cost of land are part of it. That is reflected because people have to pay taxes and so on. It takes into consideration that formula, as well as land and taxes. It also takes in the cost of electricity, heating costs, water and sewer costs, insurance premiums and maintenance costs. It looks at the cost of maintaining a home. Heating costs are very much related to the cost of maintaining a home.

What we used as a core is the formula that the Housing Corporation developed years ago and has improved upon year after year, which is based on the cost of owning and maintaining a home. Not based on how much your groceries cost or anything like that, but the cost of a home. That is as close as we could come to one that will reflect what this rebate is meant to achieve, because it does include heating as well as other costs. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Further Return To Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1466

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Minister Handley . Supplementary, Mr. Bell .

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Supplementary To Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1466

Brendan Bell

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Then let us call this a house price rebate. We are trying to put a square peg in a round hole here, Mr. Speaker. Why would the people living in Detah have a $72,000 threshold and the people in Ndilo have a $64,500 threshold? I do not understand this at all. If this is not about fuel, then let us say so. Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1466

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Bell . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Finance, Mr. Handley .

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Further Return To Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1466

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, I had the same question as does the Member about why there are differences between Ndilo and Yellowknife and Detah and Rae and so on. The answer is fairly simple. It has to do with the cost of acquiring and maintaining a home. Taxes are certainly a part of that. That accounts for the biggest difference between the cost of a house in Yellowknife and the cost of a house in Detah or Ndilo. The answer there is fairly simple.

We are starting with this scale because it is the one scale that we seem to have in government that comes closest to including consideration of heating costs. That is why we chose that one. I gave it out to the Members because you wanted it. You asked for it and I made it available to you as a draft. I did that in good faith. It is a draft. It is a starting point. I said all week that I want to do that. It is as close as we could come. I want to meet with the standing committee to go over this, if that is possible, in the next few days. I am hearing what you are saying. This is just a base. Please treat it as it is. It is marked draft and it is starting point. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1466

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Le dernier question supplementaire. Your final supplementary, Mr. Bell .

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Supplementary To Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1467

Brendan Bell

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Sure it is stamped draft, but I have approximately an hour and a half to give any feedback or contribution that I want to make according to his letter. I just do not understand this. I think we have taken the easiest thing we have available and tried to pump a million bucks out there as quickly as possible. There are huge differences between Inuvik and Tsiigehtchic. Tsiigehtchic pays way more for fuel. Does this make sense, Mr. Speaker?

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Supplementary To Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1467

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Bell . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Finance, Mr. Handley .

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Further Return To Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1467

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, certainly I would ask for feedback by noon. My meeting with the deputy ministers' committee is helping do the work on this late this afternoon. I want to work on the weekend on it and try to come up with something, but we need to get this finalized as quickly as possible. This rebate is not just based on fuel costs. It is based on trying to help people who most need help, particularly in the area of maintaining their homes. Heating is part of that. So it is based on trying to help those who most need help. We are trying to keep the relationship with heating costs as part of home maintenance.

So it is more than just an across-the-board rebate to people all across the Territories for rising fuel costs. That is a different situation altogether. That might lead us to having some sort of universal program because everybody felt the heating cost prices. We are looking at trying to help those who need help.

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Further Return To Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Question 432-14(3): Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1467

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Great Slave , Mr. Braden .

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Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1467

Bill Braden

Great Slave

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment in the area of income support. Through the fuel rebates that we have been talking about, and the federal government has made available, we have a good news story here. However, it is being botched in its implementation. Why is the government clawing back one-time gift payments from the federal government to low- and modest-income support clients in the North? Thank you.

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Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1467

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Braden . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes .

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Return To Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1467

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have a list of unearned income areas that the government does consider beyond its payments that it makes. We have to remember, Mr. Speaker, that the government pays for all shelter, all fuel and all electricity for income support clients to the full amount. The program is intended as a threshold income program, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

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Return To Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1467

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Braden .

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Supplementary To Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1467

Bill Braden

Great Slave

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the motives, the objectives and the achievements of the program, but when these one-time events come along and the government takes such arbitrary and sudden action, it has a real impact on the ability of these families to cope. Why did the government not give some notice that it was going to clawback the federal fuel rebate? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1467

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Braden . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes .

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Further Return To Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1467

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are other areas the government considers as unearned income. We spoke about the impact benefit agreements. There are other programs; the National Child Benefit Supplement, for example, is redirected to a program and services for low income families. I think it is important to remember that we have set some thresholds that are there in the income support program. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Further Return To Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1467

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Merci, Mr. Minister. Question supplementaire, Mr. Braden .

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Supplementary To Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1467

Bill Braden

Great Slave

Mr. Speaker, there just does not seem to be the kind of coordination and communication between governments with a client or customer focus in mind that will help them cope, as I said, with these kind of changes to a very fragile income situation. What is the government going to do to improve that kind of coordination and communication between clients? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1467

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Braden . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes .

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Further Return To Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1467

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are also looking at shortly introducing a change in the food rates. As well, I did commit to the Member through this week and last week that we are looking at the program. I directed my department and the staff to look at the income support program areas, because it is not just this one particular area of unearned income that we have to be concerned about, Mr. Speaker, it is other areas. The impact benefit agreements have been related and how does that all play out, Mr. Speaker. So I have asked my department to look at this whole area and directed them to report back to me.

I already made the commitment that I will share that information with the Members so we can start working in this area. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1467

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Merci, Monsieur Ministre. Le dernier question supplementaire. Your final supplementary, Mr. Braden .

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Supplementary To Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

Bill Braden

Great Slave

Mr. Speaker, those are all very valid and very significant areas that we have to look at, but what I am looking at is the impact on families today right now who do not have the income they have been used to. The Minister of Finance said he was anxious to get cheques out. I want to ask the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment , will he work with his colleagues, have a heart and restore this one-time gift of income supplements?

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Supplementary To Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

Some Hon. Members

Have a heart!

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Supplementary To Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Braden . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes .

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Further Return To Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned, there is no reduction in individuals' income. We still pay for all of the fuel. We pay for all of the electricity. We pay for all of the housing, Mr. Speaker. So the income level has not dropped on individuals. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Question 433-14(3): Federal Fuel Subsidy Recovery

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Just a reminder to Members, please make your supplementaries short, especially your final supplementary. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for North Slave , Mr. Lafferty .

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Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

Leon Lafferty

North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transportation , the Honourable Vince Steen . In the 1970s and 1980s, there was an all-land winter road used to travel to Wha Ti and Rae Lakes, ending at Great Bear Lake. Can the Minister tell me why this route is not developed any more? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Transportation, Mr. Steen .

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Return To Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

Vince Steen

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am told that the route the Member is referring to was used for a number of years as a winter road into Rae Lakes and Lac La Martre. At the time, there were some concerns made by the community and they were opposed to the road. Because it was along the route they are using now, the decision was made to switch to the existing route for a winter road. As to why the road all the way to Great Bear Lake was ever planned or what the plan was for that particular route, I have no information on that. Thank you.

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Return To Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Minister Steen . Supplementary, Mr. Lafferty .

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Supplementary To Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

Leon Lafferty

North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I did not want the road to Great Bear Lake redeveloped. That was just an example I used. I would like to ask the Minister if they would really look at developing this route to the North Slave communities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Transportation, Mr. Steen .

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Further Return To Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

Vince Steen

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in the last few days and over the last week or so, I have had some discussions with the Member on this possibility. Also, previously in this House, the Member asked me if I would consider going to Ottawa with a request to consider funding for this particular route in cooperation with the chiefs. I agreed to this, but at this point in time, I have no feedback on that.

As far as whether or not the department would consider this as a future all-weather road, at this time, we would just be looking at it. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Minister Steen . Supplementary, Mr. Lafferty .

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Supplementary To Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

Leon Lafferty

North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the near future, contracts will be awarded for future winter roads to the communities. Will the Minister take into consideration the changing weather patterns when they plan for future winter roads? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Transportation, Mr. Steen .

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Further Return To Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

Vince Steen

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as the Member mentioned today in his Member's statement, there are problems reaching Gameti, Rae Lakes with the winter road. The department is concerned about this and what we are going to be doing in the future. I will be working with the department and the Member, and I presume the community leaders, as to the possibility of using the land route in the future as the winter road.

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Further Return To Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Question 434-14(3): All-land Winter Road To Rae Lakes And Wha Ti

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Minister Steen . Questions orales. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Frame Lake , Mr. Dent .

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Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1468

Charles Dent

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance on the Fuel Rebate Program. I appreciate that the Minister has indicated he is willing to consult on the program and listen to advice, but he has also said that he is anxious to get the rebate out quickly. I appreciate that. I think the people who are looking forward to receiving this rebate do want to see the money quickly.

I think we need to spend a little bit of extra time to try and get the program right. That means I do not think we can get our advice to the Minister by noon today. Could the Minister advise us, is there a reason for him having set the deadline for the program to distribute cheques at March 31?

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Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1469

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Dent . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Finance, Mr. Handley .

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Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1469

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, the only reason I have set the deadline to March 31 is to get the cheques into the hands of the people who are saying they need it. I am hearing from them and I expect that other Members are. There are people out there who want the money, who need the money now. They do not have time to wait for us. They have fuel bills. Some are behind in their payments and so on. They need it now. We had to set a time frame that is reasonable, both giving our people time to do the work that is necessary, do the consultation as best we can, and let us get the money out to those people who need it.

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Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1469

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Dent .

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Supplementary To Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1469

Charles Dent

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am certain there are people who are in dire need of this money. I would hope we could move quickly to get that money out to them. From what the Minister has said, it would seem that it is possible to extend the consultation period to perhaps the middle of next week and extend the claim period to say, April 7. Is that possible?

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Supplementary To Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1469

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Dent . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Finance, Mr. Handley .

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Further Return To Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1469

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, I think that is possible. It is. It is just that we have to help people who need help. I want to do it as quickly as we can. If there is a good reason to delay it for a week, there is opportunity to get more good feedback, then I will consider it. I really have those people's concerns at heart, but let us help the people who need help. They are telling us right now they need help.

If we can do it by March 31, I really hope we can stick with that schedule. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1469

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Minister Handley . Supplementary, Mr. Dent .

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Supplementary To Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1469

Charles Dent

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think Members on this side of the House have pointed out some areas of unfairness in the program, so I think it is absolutely essential that we spend a couple of extra days to make sure that we have it right.

I would ask the Minister to commit to allowing the Members on this side of the House until the middle of next week to provide their advice to him on this program and, if necessary, extend the deadline to April 7 for applying for the rebates.

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Supplementary To Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1469

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Dent . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Finance, Mr. Handley .

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Further Return To Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1469

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Sure, if there is useful purpose in doing that, then I do not have any objection at all, if we can make this a good program. I do hope the Members work with me to keep this a simple program, so administratively we do not have to go and do an assessment of every family and so on to see exactly what their needs are. Otherwise, it will just delay things. The objective is this is a one-time rebate. Let us get it out to the people's hands as quickly as we can. A couple of days, sure. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Question 435-14(3): Proposed Fuel Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1469

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Minister Handley . Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , Mr. Krutko .

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Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1469

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Municipal and Community Affairs about the property tax rebate. Knowing there are other programs out there, has the department looked at working in conjunction with our seniors on the seniors' fuel subsidy to streamline those programs so they are more easily available for our elders to have access to?

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Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1469

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Allen .

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Return To Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1469

Roger Allen

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am going to speak specifically to the question of seniors' tax rebate programs. Yes, we are reviewing this specific program. Also, we are dealing in consultation again with the Minister responsible for Seniors and other departments who have a vested interest in seniors programs.

It is fairly early, as the Member knows, and we are trying to respond to every request now through what seems like a collective approach on all of the programs. I think this will bring the question to a head. We are willing to respond to that. Thank you.

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Return To Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1470

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko .

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Supplementary To Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1470

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, one of the big problems we have in our communities is having people made aware. I would like to ask the department, what is the department doing to ensure that our elders are aware of these rebate programs and also, what is the department doing to help our elders by getting them the forms so they can fill them out? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1470

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Allen .

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Further Return To Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1470

Roger Allen

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. From the department's perspective, it is contingent upon the SAOs and the other workers in the community to continue to work on behalf of the seniors as they would on behalf of all citizens of that community.

We have just been advised that for any seniors who need assistance that cannot be provided at the community level, they may call the seniors 1-800 information line. I am sure a representative from that department will be able to provide more detailed information. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1470

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Minister Allen . Supplementary, Mr. Krutko .

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Supplementary To Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1470

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I believe we do have some problems with communication. I phoned the hamlet of Fort McPherson who is administering it, but I was told to call a person from MACA in Inuvik. I would like to ask the Minister, exactly who is delivering this program so it is accessible to the communities rather than have it jump from one department to another?

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Supplementary To Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1470

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Allen .

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Further Return To Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1470

Roger Allen

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am sorry, I cannot answer that specific question due to the fact that I am not sure who is responsible for responding. In terms of MACA's programs, we do have the SAOs at the municipal level. Also, if there are some questions in regard to overall program delivery and services, then it is the responsibility of our district office in Inuvik to respond to that accordingly. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1470

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Allen . Final supplementary, Mr. Krutko .

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Supplementary To Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1470

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister tell me, are there initiatives within this government, realizing there is a major impact on our seniors with regard to power increases, fuel increases, and the cost of property taxes have gone up...I would like to know on behalf of our elders, is the Government of the Northwest Territories considering a review of all programs to ensure they are being delivered and that they are accessible for our elders?

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Supplementary To Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1470

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Allen .

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Further Return To Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1470

Roger Allen

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am going to speak again specifically to the PATA, the Property Assessment Taxation Act, which is under review. I am sure it affects seniors as well as everyone else across the Territories. I will commit to the Member that we are constantly working on improving all levels of service to seniors in regard to the question of property taxation. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Question 436-14(3): Seniors' Tax Rebate Program

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1470

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Minister Allen . Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Thebacha , Mr. Miltenberger .

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