Debates of Feb. 4th, 2010

This is page numbers 3945 - 3980 of the Hansard for the 16th Assembly, 4th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was work .

Topics

Oral Questions

Members Present

Prayer

Minister’s Statement 55-16(4): Success Of New Approach To Corrections Training And Recruitment

Minister’s Statement 56-16(4): Minister Absent From The House

Caribou Conservation Measures

Establishment Of An Ombudsman Office

Delivery Of Seniors Home Heating Subsidy Program

Caribou Conservation Measures

Daycare Programs In Tu Nedhe Communities

Apprenticeship And Occupational Certification Week

Adequate Supports For Community Health Care Centres

Government Contracting Practices

Caribou Conservation Measures

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Funding For Daycare Programs

Adequate Supports For Community Health Care Centres

Establishment Of An Ombudsman Office

Caribou Management Measures

Caribou Management Measures

Caribou Management Measures

Caribou Management Measures

Caribou Management Measures

Government Contracting Practices

Caribou Management Measures

Seniors Home Heating Subsidy

Written Question 17-16(4): Income Support Services To Lutselk’e

Written Question 18-16(4): Details On Sole-Sourced Contracts

Mr. Krutko's Reply

Mr. Yakeleya's Reply

Resolution Of Caribou Harvesting Issue

Extended Adjournment Of The House To February 8, 2010

Bill 11:

An Act To Amend The Workers’ Compensation Act

Bill 10: Exemption Act

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Report of Committee of the Whole

Point of Privilege

Speaker’s Ruling

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery (Reversion)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters (Reversion)

Report of Committee of the Whole

Orders of the Day

The House met at 1:34 p.m.

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---Prayer

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Prayer

Prayer

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Good afternoon, colleagues. Welcome back to the Chamber. Orders of the day. Item 2, Ministers’ statements. The honourable Minister of Justice , Mr. Lafferty .

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Minister’s Statement 55-16(4): Success Of New Approach To Corrections Training And Recruitment

Ministers’ Statements

Monfwi

Jackson Lafferty

Minister of Justice

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to provide an update on our new approach to recruit and training corrections officers and youth officers to work in our facilities.

In the past, we have had challenges with recruiting Northerners for these specialized jobs. Not just anyone can work as a corrections officer or in a correctional centre. These jobs take many skills and the right attitude. The skills required are not easy to come by in the North, and we need to make sure that people have the skills and training they need to qualify for these jobs. Situations can escalate within seconds and staff need to be able to react quickly and appropriately.

We wanted Northerners to qualify for these jobs. That’s especially true because our approach to corrections is much different than the approaches that are common in other parts of Canada. Our focus is on rehabilitation and community reintegration and we use a direct supervision model that has our staff and offenders working closely together.

We need people who have the same approach, people who care about their communities, people who want to help inmates deal with the issues that have been leading them to crime. We can’t train people to care about their communities. We can train people who already care about their communities to be good corrections staff. This is part of the Government of the Northwest Territories’ work to improve human resource management through training, career planning and encouraging

employee innovation. Our own Justice Northern Workforce Development Plan depends on this client-focused, service-oriented model.

Our northern solution is a recruitment program which identifies Northerners with the right aptitude and attitude and then provides them with a six-week training program. It was developed by Northerners and graduates are qualified to start work at any of our correctional centres right away. So far, 20 people have graduated. That’s 20 northern residents who qualified right away to work in our corrections system or in any other security-type job in the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Speaker, the next program will start this April with concurrent training programs in Yellowknife and Fort Smith. These programs are delivered in-house by qualified instructors. We need people with all sorts of backgrounds to work in corrections. Our diversity is our strength. We hire people with training in social work, education, nursing, recreation, counselling, management and law enforcement. Sometimes people don’t realize how many opportunities they have. We think this training program will help.

Our corrections service is working hard to recruit and retain northern staff to be as responsible as we can be to the needs of northern offenders. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

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Minister’s Statement 55-16(4): Success Of New Approach To Corrections Training And Recruitment

Ministers’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . The honourable Premier , Mr. Roland .

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Minister’s Statement 56-16(4): Minister Absent From The House

Ministers’ Statements

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I wish to advise Members that the Honourable Bob McLeod will be absent from the House today to attend promotional events related to the 2010 Olympic Games in Vancouver. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Minister’s Statement 56-16(4): Minister Absent From The House

Ministers’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland . Item 3, Members’ statements. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , Mr. Krutko .

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Caribou Conservation Measures

Members’ Statements

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise today on an issue I raised yesterday in the House. I find it kind of ironic that the Government of the Northwest Territories is falling back to federal legislation that was passed in the federal Parliament in 1960 to deal with an issue in 2010. I think, Mr. Speaker, it’s a bad precedent that this government is setting on how we manage the affairs of the Northwest Territories by going back to the colonial government of John Diefenbaker.

At that time, we used to have a council which was appointed by Ottawa and ran the government out of Ottawa, and now we are in the situation where we are going back to that same legislation and same process of falling back instead of going ahead and agreeing to acknowledging aboriginal rights, aboriginal land claims and Canadian constitutional changes in regards to

Section 35, acknowledging aboriginal people’s rights in the Northwest Territories and enhancing those processes to enact those legislative agreements that have been passed in this Legislature by adhering to aboriginal rights with regard to constitutional rights and, more importantly, Mr. Speaker, the right as Canadians to upholding our Constitution,

Section 35.

Mr. Speaker, I find it kind of hard to understand how a government can make a political decision on outdated decisions regarding a government which no longer applies to the Northwest Territories. We are a new Territory after division. We have land claims settled in the Northwest Territories.

We also have agreements that clearly stipulate the process this government must follow before it takes any type of radical decisions such as the one we’re dealing with today by ensuring due process, making sure that the needs levels of indigenous people are upheld, and allowing those aboriginal people the right to subsistence harvesting on a manageable level.

I think for myself, a Member of this House going on 15 years, this sets a bad precedent in regard to how we make decisions in this Legislature for the people of the Northwest Territories, running back to Ottawa, going through their archives to dig up something that might be...

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Caribou Conservation Measures

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Mr. Krutko , your time for your Member’s statement has expired.

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Caribou Conservation Measures

Members’ Statements

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

---Unanimous consent granted.

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Caribou Conservation Measures

Members’ Statements

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

This sets a bad precedent where we have to go back to the federal archives in Ottawa to dig up anything we can to justify what we’re doing today in 2010. I think because of the

justification of how this came about, the process was enhanced and I think it’s critical that this government investigates exactly how this took place. I will be asking the Minister questions on why we had to go to the federal archives.

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Caribou Conservation Measures

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . The honourable Member for Frame Lake , Ms. Bisaro .

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Establishment Of An Ombudsman Office

Members’ Statements

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Over my time in this Assembly I have encountered quite a few situations where constituents have been at odds with a body or organization who has made a decision that affects the constituent or their family. In most cases when that happens the only recourse available is for the matter to be taken to court. That option comes with all sorts of problems attached. Most people don’t have the money to pay for a lawyer. Most people are not comfortable in the court system even if they do have a lawyer.

As well, the court system is adversarial and does not allow for solving a dispute with mediation and arbitration, in most cases. That’s a process which is far less combative and much more in line with what most of us are used to in our daily lives.

I know that Members of this House have previously argued for an office of an ombudsman and I want to add my voice to that chorus, albeit a faint chorus at the moment. There are innumerable situations where NWT residents could use an ombudsman to assist in solving a dispute or disagreement.

Disputes such as landlord-tenant issues that are outside the jurisdiction of the rental officer; an investigation and/or decision by a self-regulating body where the professional person feels it was incorrectly handled or resulted in an unjust decision; decisions by housing authorities that the client may disagree with; income support issues -- a family may lose their home due to Income Support not issuing cheques in a timely manner and they would like to dispute that; health and social services issues -- an ombudsman can investigate administrative decisions by officials in hospitals and other medical facilities; decisions made by the Workers' Safety and Compensation Commission could go to an ombudsman.

For all of these situations, and many others as well, there’s no avenue of appeal except the court.

An ombudsman is impartial and independent from the government. They would make recommendations to resolve issues of unfairness and to improve administrative processes. Many of us in this House receive inquiries from constituents in distress because we, as MLAs, are an informal avenue of appeal and I don’t believe that MLA intervention is the best way to solve these sorts of disputes.

All these disputes could be dealt with by an ombudsman. Almost two years ago now the Minister of Justice advised that his department would look into the possibility of establishing an ombudsman office. I will have questions for the Minister at the appropriate time.

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Establishment Of An Ombudsman Office

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro . The honourable Member for Weledeh , Mr. Bromley .

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Delivery Of Seniors Home Heating Subsidy Program

Members’ Statements

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to talk today about the woeful delivery of the Seniors Home Heating Subsidy and the need for improvements in our general customer service approach. One of my constituents applied for the heating fuel subsidy and filed his paperwork asking for propane fuel. He was told more information was needed, re-filed the identical information, and was approved. He heard nothing until a delivery truck arrived at his rural home and filled his generator fuel tank with diesel. He called the department, reported the error, and was told he would receive propane this time. The allowable benefit for propane is 3,200 litres.

The department mistakenly approved him for the 2,400 litre diesel allowance. Upon request, they corrected this error. The department told him to call the propane company to arrange his delivery. The company has no Yellowknife service representatives and when he called they knew nothing of the program. He went to the Yellowknife office and was told that the delivery would be made and to give the propane company the government delivery order so the company could get payment from the department. He supplied that.

The bill went unpaid for three months and he began to get letters demanding payment and saying late payment charges would be added. The overdue account was turned over to a collection agency with a warning that his credit rating would be damaged. The bill has now been paid but he is still on the hook for the late payment charges, which the department hasn’t paid.

I think you would agree that this experience could hardly have been worse. I am not only concerned with the disappointing treatment of my constituent, but with the potential loss of benefits to many seniors owing to the complexity, difficulty and failed management of the program. This person happened to have sophisticated skills for dealing with government. Others who may be less well-educated or informed might never know the program due to lack of promotion. They might abandon their attempts to receive support at any one of the failed service points in this process. They could receive less than their allowance benefits due to errors in the amount and type of fuel subsidy

being approved. They could end up suffering adverse credit rating consequences or even the loss of their credit rating. They would definitely be subjected to long and unnecessary anxiety and inconvenience.

Seniors receive this assistance because they are in need of extra support. While the program is admirable and reasonable in its intentions, this case demonstrates dreadful customer service delivery. If we were a business…

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Delivery Of Seniors Home Heating Subsidy Program

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Mr. Bromley , your time for your Member’s statement has expired.

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Delivery Of Seniors Home Heating Subsidy Program

Members’ Statements

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

---Unanimous consent granted.

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Delivery Of Seniors Home Heating Subsidy Program

Members’ Statements

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, if we were a business, we would have gone out of business long ago with this sort of performance. The department has been informed of this incident and promised prompt action, but we need to do better for all our customers. I will be asking questions later about improving our general service delivery. Mahsi.

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Delivery Of Seniors Home Heating Subsidy Program

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bromley . The honourable Member for Sahtu , Mr. Yakeleya .

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Caribou Conservation Measures

Members’ Statements

Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I’ve been reviewing some of my notes from yesterday and from the exchange I had with the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and the Minister of ENR . Mr. Speaker, the issue with me is with the consultation process in terms of looking at the issue of caribou with the aboriginal people. Mr. Speaker, I also understand that the Minister indicated in the House that they were close to coming to a resolution of this issue with the Yellowknives Dene. Certainly, there are two views as to the type of resolution, Mr. Speaker.

I find it very puzzling that we are coming to a point in this type of discussion where you have two opposing views as to dealing with the caribou in this specific area. It also entails other discussions around rights, treaty rights, food for survival, even the method of consultation and the method that we’ve been receiving or even the scientific evidence.

I haven’t seen much weight on the traditional evidence in terms of that coming forward, in terms of what are the aboriginal people telling us about the caribou in terms of evidence of the elders, in terms of how we should deal with this important species for their livelihood.

Mr. Speaker, I wanted to follow up later regarding this Member’s statement with my questions to the Minister in terms of a resolution with the Yellowknives Dene in terms of how do we resolve this issue. I think that there are some ways that we could work out. There have been suggestions by

the Dene Nation in their motions in terms of how do we deal with this issue way before it’s coming to this point here. So I want to ask the Minister later on in terms of how do we ensure that the needs of the people who depend on caribou are looked after. Their culture is at risk and at stake here. There is a herd that the ENR office has said that is going to possibly become extinct if we do nothing. There has not been much weight given to the diamond mines up there and the thousands and thousands of trucks that go by there every year. There are other issues we haven’t talked about. It seems like we are just putting this on the aboriginal hunters, Mr. Speaker. That is not fair.

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Caribou Conservation Measures

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya . The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe , Mr. Beaulieu .

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Daycare Programs In Tu Nedhe Communities

Members’ Statements

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker. Today I would like to talk about daycare programs in Lutselk’e and Fort Resolution. Mr. Speaker, we know how important it is for preschool children and those from K to 6 to have a positive nurturing environment to grow up in. The Tinkers and Tots program in Lutselk’e and Little Darlings Daycare in Fort Resolution provide this atmosphere for the children. Mr. Speaker, these programs are doing a great service in each of these communities. These programs are operating on minimum funding but yet it is still providing a fun, structured, positive environment for the children.

The principal of Lutselk’e told me about the amazing success story of the kindergarten class. She says the credit for those students to come into kindergarten with necessary language and social skills at a level necessary to learn in kindergarten is a credit to the work being done at Tinkers and Tots. The staff at the Little Darlings Daycare program is also doing a tremendous job in Fort Resolution, where there is limited annual funding for the staff and on many occasions they are working nine hours a day without overtime to provide a healthy, positive environment for the children.

Mr. Speaker, I have spoken many times in this House about the social, economic, even health challenges that plague many of our smaller communities. A long-term solution is to provide adequate supports and resources to those small communities to the daycares today. Mr. Speaker, we cannot afford to have these daycare programs fail. Just yesterday, I spoke about the problems of school absenteeism in these smaller communities. A well-run daycare program directly addresses this problem.

Mr. Speaker, the staff in Tinkers and Tots and Little Darlings programs and many residents in Lutselk’e and Fort Resolution are dedicated and committed

to providing a positive, healthy and rich learning environment for these children.

Mr. Speaker, later on today I will have questions for the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment on this. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Daycare Programs In Tu Nedhe Communities

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu . The honourable Member for Nahendeh , Mr. Menicoche .

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Apprenticeship And Occupational Certification Week

Members’ Statements

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. This week is Apprenticeship and Occupational Certification Week. I would like to recognize how the government has increased emphasis on and support for training apprenticeship opportunities and occupational certification over the past few years. This is paying off. We will need these graduates to work on the highways and pipelines in our future. There are many advantages to taking a trade. A person can work often in their own community and attend tiers of training at Aurora College and/or colleges down south.

Occupational certification programs provide similar advantages. As new certificates are developed, workers can go through a program of work experience and training and get recognized credentials in their field. As well, when employers are hiring, they can be assured that applicants have competencies. MACA’s development of occupational standards is a good example as it has helped bands and municipalities to improve the skills of their staff.

People in my riding of Nahendeh have benefited from these programs, Mr. Speaker. This year there were three apprenticeship graduates. Enos Tonka, has an apprenticeship as a carpenter. Mr. Nathan Taylor has a heavy duty equipment technician and as well Mark O’Neill, formerly of Fort Simpson, as an automotive service technician. Shawn Gillis, who works for the Village of Fort Simpson, received an occupational certificate as a recreational facility operator specializing in skating rinks. I am pleased to congratulate these men for their achievements. I am pleased that the government has supported these endeavours.

I commend all apprentices throughout the North and those who are planning to attend, because our North needs you. Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker.

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Apprenticeship And Occupational Certification Week

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche . The honourable Member for Nunakput , Mr. Jacobson .

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Adequate Supports For Community Health Care Centres

Members’ Statements

Jackie Jacobson

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Health care is one of the most important services this government can provide to our residents and

communities across the Northwest Territories. It’s not easy. Many challenges the northern health care providers face are truly unique to the North. For many small, remote communities all across the North, such as Nunakput, the community centres provide a large range of services for the average flu, regular elderly examinations and, in some cases, even emotional wellness programs. These are many reasons why this is so critical for this government to adequately provide not only the resources but the technical and administrative support to all communities. Health care centres can provide proper health care services.

Mr. Speaker, during my recent visits to Nunakput communities, speaking with the leadership, most centres lack the basic requirements in addition to resources, medical professionals or specialists visiting the community and are seriously eroding the standard of care this government is committed to providing.

Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned in previous Member’s statements, the staff in the community health care centres when they work they almost have to improvise. This government must step up and implement all various recommendations and suggestions through the years of various reports from local governments.

In Nunakput, the communities, if there is a serious condition the plane leaves from Inuvik and has to fly into the community and sometimes it takes five to six hours for a medevac before they can see a doctor. Especially health care centres, they must be adequately equipped as clinics such as Inuvik and Yellowknife. We all know how fast medical conditions can progress in even one or two months. The situation means the difference between life and death, as I have expressed in several Member’s statements over these last 18 months.

Health centre staff and nurses are working very hard in trying to ensure the best medical service that they can provide, but this government needs to help. This government needs to devote the resources to ensure the problems do not affect the quality of care to our residents, but it needs to ensure that the shortages that are experienced in small, remote communities aren’t always bearing the brunt of it all.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’ll have questions for the Minister of Health and Social Services at the appropriate time. Thank you.

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Adequate Supports For Community Health Care Centres

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Jacobson . The honourable Member for Kam Lake , Mr. Ramsay .

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Government Contracting Practices

Members’ Statements

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to address the issue of government contracting today. In 2008-2009 we spent upwards of $515 million in

contracts. The government’s stated objectives for contracting is to acquire goods and services in a way that enhances suppliers’ access to contracts, encourages competition, reflects fairness, transparency and accountability in the spending of public funds.

Mr. Speaker, over 10 percent of our total procurement, roughly $53 million, was acquired through sole-sourced means. There is little doubt that as a government we need to contract, but from what I have seen, and continue to see, from this government is a propensity to sole-source contracts to the detriment of our stated objectives.

Sole-sourcing throws competition out the window. It is much more likely to show favouritism to friends and family and our pursuit of spending public funds with transparency becomes very questionable. Looking through the Government of the Northwest Territories Contracts Over $5,000 Report from 2008-2009, it becomes very clear that we have a habit of handing out sole-sourced contracts to former employees for consulting services. The report is very short on the nature of the work that was conducted. Why are we sole-sourcing so many consulting services?

Mr. Speaker, judging by the amount of references to studies, reports and strategies by the Finance Minister in this year’s budget address, it looks like an all-you-can-eat buffet for consultants. I’ve always taken issue with the government’s reliance on consultants and it is even worse if the consultants continue to be retained via sole-sourced contracts. Whatever happened to trying to get the best price?

Consulting services for communication services in particular is out of control. Hundreds of thousands of dollars just handed to one company. No competition, no RFP, no transparency, no accountability.

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Government Contracting Practices

Members’ Statements

An Hon. Member

Shame.

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Government Contracting Practices

Members’ Statements

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

My fear, and I’ve said this before, is many of our senior managers are becoming or actually spending most of their time as contract administrators. The work is being consistently farmed out to consultants. How do we or can we get some of this work done by our departmental staff? The trend of spending on consultants and sole-sourcing contracts can easily be reviewed on an annual basis.

I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

---Unanimous consent granted.

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Government Contracting Practices

Members’ Statements

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Can we not come up with a goal of reducing our bad habit of sole-sourcing and our reliance on expensive consultants?

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Government Contracting Practices

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay . The honourable Member for Hay River South , Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Caribou Conservation Measures

Members’ Statements

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Judging by the audience we have in the gallery today there is a very important issue there. I was going to speak about something else today, but I feel it’s important that since so many people have demonstrated an interest in this topic of the caribou, that I speak to it from my vantage point as only one of 19 Members elected to this Legislature. I hope this will be received in the spirit in which it is intended.

For the sake of the caribou I implore leaders of all affected stakeholder groups to continue a dialogue that is mutually respectful of all parties. Please don’t allow valuable time, financial, and wildlife resources to be negatively impacted by the personalizing or politicizing of this very important question.

I would like the GNWT and the Minister to continue to explore every option possible to avoid a standoff, a gridlock, or an all-out legal battle over the management of this unique and traditionally precious commodity.

Every one of the ranging caribou herds must be sustained for the benefit of those who will come after us. This isn’t about Minister Miltenberger and it isn’t about Chief Erasmus. It is about humans who will be humble enough to bring the best traditional and scientific knowledge to bear on our God-given, Creator-given duty we have as humans for the well-being of our land and our wildlife.

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Caribou Conservation Measures

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen . Item 4, reports of standing and special committees. Item 5, returns to oral questions. Item 6, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Weledeh , Mr. Bromley .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my great pleasure today to welcome the many people of Dettah and Ndilo, the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, their supporters, and residents of the area. I’d like to mention some names, but I certainly can’t mention all. In particular are Chief Edward Sangris and Ted Tsetta of Dettah and Ndilo, and Grand Chief Bill Erasmus. I know there are elders in the crowd here. I see Muriel Betsina, I believe, and others. Particularly the youth, I want to recognize them and all the people. I particularly appreciate the time that they have taken out of their schedules to be here today in the House with us.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bromley . The honourable Member for Nahendeh , Mr. Menicoche .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to recognize a couple of hardworking Pages that came from one of my communities, Nahanni Butte. I’d like to recognize Ms. Lory Ann Bertrand and Ms. Kiayana Betsaka, as well as their chaperone, Bhreagh Ingarfield. Mahsi cho.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche . The honourable Member for Nunakput , Mr. Jacobson .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Jackie Jacobson

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to recognize my CA from my home community of Tuktoyaktuk, who is down here on training with the Legislative Assembly, Ms. Donna Bernhardt.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Jacobson . The honourable Member for Hay River South , Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure today to thank and recognize two Pages from Hay River South, grade 8 students from Ecole Boreale School, Ms. Jill Belanger and Julia Gyapay.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen . The honourable Member for Monfwi , Mr. Lafferty .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . The honourable Member for Kam Lake , Mr. Ramsay .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, would like to welcome the chiefs that are with us, Mr. Tsetta, Mr. Sangris, and Mr. Erasmus, that are up in the gallery.

As well, Mr. Bromley talked about some youth we have here with us today. We have some special visitors from K’alemi Dene School and I’d like to just go through their names, if I could. Crystal Sangris, Shelby Betsina, Ernest Sangris, Clayton Sangris, Kristen Sangris, Maverick Betsina, Kyra Sangris, Justina Johnson-Black, Walter Johnson-Black, Jeremy Joe Frankie, Brent Betsina, Kevin Betsina, Carla Frankie, Elijah Grandjambe, Adrian Sangris, Savannah Mackenzie, Vicki-Lee Martin, Danielle Martin, and as well we’ve got the principal of the school, Ms. Angela James; Ms. Eileen Erasmus, Mr. David Ryan and Ms. Angela Gallant.

I’d also like to welcome everybody that’s with us here this afternoon.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay . If we have missed anyone in the gallery today, welcome to the Chamber. I hope you’re enjoying the proceedings. It’s always a pleasure to have an audience in here.

Item 7, acknowledgements. Item 8, oral questions. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe , Mr. Beaulieu .

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Question 253-16(4): Funding For Daycare Programs

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Earlier, in my Member’s statement, I spoke about daycare programs in Lutselk’e and Fort Resolution. I have questions for the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment .

According to the department’s website, the department put out a document called Framework for Action: Early Childhood Development in May 2001. Can the Minister tell me if the department has released anything more recently on childhood development?

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Question 253-16(4): Funding For Daycare Programs

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu . The honourable Minister responsible for Education, Culture and Employment , Mr. Lafferty .

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Question 253-16(4): Funding For Daycare Programs

Oral Questions

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. That Early Childhood Program has been successful in the communities, especially in the smaller communities where we provide funding to the Aboriginal Head Start Program or preschool. The Family Literacy Program is part of the Literacy Strategy 2008-2018. And also the day homes that we’ve been promoting for a number of years now. We continue to promote those particular programs because we want those programs to be successful. Early childhood is important for education so we can see some success in those areas. I can certainly provide the Member or Members more detailed information in that respect.

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Question 253-16(4): Funding For Daycare Programs

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Within our work with the Committee on Sustainable Rural and Remote Communities we have allocated money to early childhood development. Can the Minister of ECE advise me if any of that money will be targeted to daycares?

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Question 253-16(4): Funding For Daycare Programs

Oral Questions

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

The money that we’ve identified in the past and going forward in early childhood consists of many aspects of facilities that we sponsor in the Northwest Territories. I can certainly provide the breakdown to the Member of the past sponsors that we’ve had and it does vary. If I’m going to speak to it, it’s a bit of a long list. Certainly that information can be shared with the Members whenever it is requested. I can do that.

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Question 253-16(4): Funding For Daycare Programs

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Mr. Speaker, can the Minister advise me if his Department of Education, Culture and Employment has done any assessments pertaining to school success and its direct correlation with daycares in those communities?

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Question 253-16(4): Funding For Daycare Programs

Oral Questions

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mr. Speaker, I’m glad the Member is asking that question. It is important to highlight that. There have been numerous assessments with regard to whether it be

the daycare, having young ones in school, if they’re succeeding on to kindergarten or grade 1, what that status is on in that respect. Those are areas we continue to work with. We continue to work with education councils, as well, in the district education authority, because those are important factors that we need to consider. When we talk about the business planning process, those are the key targets that we need to discuss with those parties. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 253-16(4): Funding For Daycare Programs

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . Your final supplementary, Mr. Beaulieu .

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Question 253-16(4): Funding For Daycare Programs

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, will the Minister direct his staff to contact and work the daycare programs in Lutselk'e and Fort Resolution to review their needs? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 253-16(4): Funding For Daycare Programs

Oral Questions

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mr. Speaker, I can certainly commit my regional staff to work with the community that the Member is referring to. Not only that, but working with the education councils as well, because we provide funding to education for facilities and operations of the schools and the daycare. It all varies in the different communities how we sponsor them, so certainly I’ll commit to that, to provide more information to the Member. Mahsi.

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Question 253-16(4): Funding For Daycare Programs

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . The honourable Member for Nunakput , Mr. Jacobson .

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Question 254-16(4): Adequate Supports For Community Health Care Centres

Oral Questions

Jackie Jacobson

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today my Member’s statement was on health centres. Considering that northern health centres can face truly unique challenges and many small, remote communities do not have regular access to large medical facilities, will this government look into providing a community health care staff with infrastructure and resources such as on-line health care programs and services? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 254-16(4): Adequate Supports For Community Health Care Centres

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Jacobson . The honourable Minister responsible for Health and Social Services , Ms. Lee .

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Question 254-16(4): Adequate Supports For Community Health Care Centres

Oral Questions

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

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Question 254-16(4): Adequate Supports For Community Health Care Centres

Oral Questions

Jackie Jacobson

Nunakput

Considering the health care centres in the communities are the first and only point of contact for all health-related emergencies, yet most centres lack even the most basic requirements to respond to call-outs, will this government commit to having small and remote community health centres be equipped with our major centres’ health clinics?

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Question 254-16(4): Adequate Supports For Community Health Care Centres

Oral Questions

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

I think it’s important to note that our health care professionals, none of them are working alone. They are connected to our entire NWT health care system. A nurse or a health care community health rep or any of the staff in our remote communities are our front-line response, but they are connected to the doctors and specialists in the regional hospitals like Inuvik, then to Stanton and, if needed, to southern facilities. Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the Member’s questions and it is important. We are working on making sure that our staff gets what they need to provide the services they need, especially on the front lines. Thank you.

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Question 254-16(4): Adequate Supports For Community Health Care Centres

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Final supplementary, Mr. Jacobson .

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Question 254-16(4): Adequate Supports For Community Health Care Centres

Oral Questions

Jackie Jacobson

Nunakput

As I mentioned in my Member’s statement earlier, the staff at the community health centres work to improvise with what they have, but they definitely need more resources. Will this government develop and implement procedural policies and resources so small, remote community health centres have more assistance when responding to and diagnosing emergency situations? Thank you.

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Question 254-16(4): Adequate Supports For Community Health Care Centres

Oral Questions

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Certainly, we wouldn’t want our front-line staff to be improvising use of equipment or their practices. They need to be supported and they are supported. I could think of the H1N1 as an example where there was regular support and clinical guidelines that went out to every support staff on an ongoing basis. I believe they are doing that with other issues of health care delivery. I will take that question, Mr. Speaker, from the Member and I will commit to making sure that our front-line staff are provided with the practice guidelines and the equipment they need to provide the care for people. Thank you.

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Question 254-16(4): Adequate Supports For Community Health Care Centres

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Lee . The honourable Member for Frame Lake , Ms. Bisaro .

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Question 255-16(4): Establishment Of An Ombudsman Office

Oral Questions

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned in my Member’s statement, it was about 20 months ago, May of 2008 actually, when I asked the Minister of Justice questions in regard to an ombudsman’s office and whether or not the department would consider

establishing one. The answer from the Minister at that time was that they needed to do some consultation with community, renters, tenants, department, Members and so on. I’d like to ask the Minister, at this point, what progress has been made in the last 20 months towards the establishment of an ombudsman’s office. Thank you.

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Question 255-16(4): Establishment Of An Ombudsman Office

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro . The honourable Minister responsible for Justice , Mr. Lafferty .

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Question 255-16(4): Establishment Of An Ombudsman Office

Oral Questions

Monfwi

Jackson Lafferty

Minister of Justice

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this ombudsman has been addressed in 2008, as the Member alluded to. This does require action to make changes to the Residential Tenancies Act if we move forward on this. At the same time, we did look into that from our department perspective. The Department of Executive have done preliminary work in this area and the results also tell us that there are already a variety of means where constituencies can have their concerns or issues addressed through various venues.

Also, this particular office of the ombudsman, the resource would definitely be capital expenditures; the cost factor as well. So we have to keep those in mind as well, but, definitely, I will continue to work with the Department of Executive in this regard, because it is broader than just the Justice department. Mahsi.

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Question 255-16(4): Establishment Of An Ombudsman Office

Oral Questions

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

I appreciate the answer from the Minister. My concerns are larger than just the Residential Tenancies Act. That is one aspect of work that an ombudsman can do and the service that they can provide for our residents. I also appreciate the fact that this is going to cost money, but there are some things where the money needs to be spent in order to provide better services for our residents. We need an office, an opportunity for residents to appeal decisions which affect them. I’d like to ask the Minister -- he kind of alluded to the fact that there’s lots now -- what sorts of things do exist right now for residents to address a dispute and to avoid court in the process. Thank you.

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Question 255-16(4): Establishment Of An Ombudsman Office

Oral Questions

Monfwi

Jackson Lafferty

Minister of Justice

Mr. Speaker, we can certainly talk about the process that we have in place, whether it be the MLAs coming to the Minister and dealing with certain issues or the process. We try to rectify the problems or challenges that are before us. Sometimes it does take time to deal with those matters because of the documentation that’s required. Whatever we do, Mr. Speaker, we try to avoid the court proceedings. That should be the last resort as much as we can. We currently deal with a variety of, I guess you can say, options of how we can deal with matters at hand.

Within the Department of Justice, I deal with various aspects of the judicial system, the court proceedings. Not only that, but the Residential Tenancies Act and other acts that are in place.

Those are the venues that we continue to work with. I think the best approach would be to work closely with the Regular MLAs to deal with their constituency matters and resolve those issues expeditiously.

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Question 255-16(4): Establishment Of An Ombudsman Office

Oral Questions

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

I guess the Minister and I will have to agree to disagree. I think that the office of an ombudsman is known to be impartial and known to be independent. I don’t think that MLAs and Ministers and department people are going to be impartial and independent from any dispute in which they are involved. There is nothing that allows an individual to appeal a particular decision unless there is actually an appeal board. If the appeal board turns them down, they have nowhere to go accept the court. So I reiterate again that an office is needed.

I would like to ask the Minister... He says that he is willing to continue to look into this. I guess I would like to ask the Minister if he is going to continue to look into the possibilities of establishing this office. Could he describe for me what those actions are? Thank you.

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Question 255-16(4): Establishment Of An Ombudsman Office

Oral Questions

Monfwi

Jackson Lafferty

Minister of Justice

Mr. Speaker, I guess the action would be that we need to work on this with the Executive. Like I said, it is beyond just the Justice department. The ombudsman is an avenue of last resort. According to other jurisdictions that have them, and investigating complaints about breaches of privacy or legislation after all other avenues have been exhausted. So this is the last resort venue. We deal with matters that have come to our attention. I try to deal with it immediately. I try to resolve those issues. I think we have an excellent mechanism that we can deal with those areas. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 255-16(4): Establishment Of An Ombudsman Office

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Final supplementary, Ms. Bisaro .

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Question 255-16(4): Establishment Of An Ombudsman Office

Oral Questions

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that matters are being dealt with, but again I have to say that an MLA, a Minister, a department official are not impartial and independent. That is the service that we need for our residents. I would like to ask the Minister if this work is going to be ongoing, if there is going to be work between Justice and the Executive. When can I expect to get some information about how this office is progressing? Thank you.

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Question 255-16(4): Establishment Of An Ombudsman Office

Oral Questions

Monfwi

Jackson Lafferty

Minister of Justice

Mr. Speaker, we can certainly provide the information that we do have on hand about our research that we have done and our consultation with various provincial jurisdictions and working with the Executive branch. We can certainly provide that information, Mr. Speaker. As we move forward, if this is an area that we need to look at, then we can certainly discuss with the Member and also the standing committee. If we need to move forward with costs, there will be a cost factor. So that needs to be taken into consideration as well. Thank you.

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Question 255-16(4): Establishment Of An Ombudsman Office

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . The honourable Member for Hay River South , Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Question 256-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today are for the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources . It is on the issue of the caribou. Mr. Speaker, this issue of conservation and use of the caribou as a resource in our Territory is a very complex issue. Mr. Speaker, we heard complaints about the consultation that took place between our government as a public government and the leaders of the aboriginal governments and the people who are affected by the harvest of this resource.

Mr. Speaker, consultation speaks to me about an exchange of ideas, information. It speaks to me of a dialogue, not a one-way kind of communication or conveying of information. I have been, as a committee member, the recipient of the very scientific technical information regarding the caribou. It is interesting, but I would like to ask the Minister, we as a public government, can he update us on what proactive measures that we have taken as a government to have meaningful dialogue consultation with the other stakeholders who are responsible for this resource as well? Thank you.

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Question 256-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen . The honourable Minister of Environment and Natural Resources , Mr. Miltenberger .

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Question 256-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have, as recently as two nights ago, met with the Yellowknives council over in Dettah. We have had conversations and discussions with Chief Sangris in the interim as well. I have met yesterday with the acting grand chief for the Tlicho about the ban and the other processes that we have underway and the need, of course, to protect the caribou. We recognize that there are some unresolved issues with the Yellowknives. We have discussions underway with them that we are hoping will bear some fruit here in the next day or so. Thank you.

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Question 256-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Mr. Speaker, a few days ago I asked several questions to the Minister on this same topic. I would like the Minister if he could, from his perception, characterize the degree of progress that we have made in dialoguing with our partners on this subject. Thank you.

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Question 256-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, we have continued support from the Tlicho Government and the Northwest Territories Metis. The North Slave Metis Alliance has indicated their concern about the herd. The Yellowknives have very strong concerns about the fate of the caribou

as well. We have had discussions. We are continuing to have, I think, productive discussions. There are some issues on the table for consideration. I am hoping that since we both want to do, in the long run, the right thing by the caribou, we will be able to come to a meeting of the minds here in the not-too-distant future. Thank you.

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Question 256-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Mr. Speaker, what the Minister has outlined does seem like a fairly substantial body of work that is being undertaken. Does the Minister, from that consultation, have any options or next steps, ideas going forward and even as an interim measure that could alleviate the concerns about the treaty rights for harvesting the caribou? Thank you.

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Question 256-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, what is currently being discussed are specific proposals, suggestions, options in terms of moving forward to deal with the issue of the right to harvest, keeping in mind the broader and fundamental need to protect the herd over the course of this hunting season so that we can engage, through the Wekeezhii process and further consultation with the Yellowknives, the Tlicho, the Northwest Territories Metis, about a longer term harvest management plan for the Bathurst or the Ahiak or the Bluenose-East which is going to be, as I indicated, a very complex undertaking. Thank you.

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Question 256-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger . Your final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Question 256-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Mr. Speaker, just to be absolutely clear so that everyone understands then, the Minister, as our point person, as our leader on this file, is telling us here today in the House and to the public that there are things that could be done to accommodate the rights of people to harvest while at the same time protecting this resource. There is flexibility in terms of our government’s mandate and ability to set rules, that there is flexibility through these negotiations and consultations. Thank you.

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Question 256-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, I have been so preoccupied with caribou that I forgot to recognize my own mayor sitting in the gallery and her son. I have to keep in mind not to miss some other things as well. Yes, I believe that we, because of the continued goodwill between all the parties and the recognition that we want to resolve this, have an opportunity to sort out the immediate issues surrounding the ban as well as engaging the much broader longer term, more important process that is going to flow out of the Wekeezhii process. It will eventually result in a caribou management plan that will include the Bathurst.

We will have to speak to what will happen with the Ahiak as well as the Bluenose-East. Thank you.

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Question 256-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger . Before we go any further, I would like to draw your attention to the public gallery and the presence of a

former Member of this House. Mr. Leon Lafferty is with us.

The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , Mr. Krutko .

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Question 257-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again I would like to raise the issue I raised yesterday in regards to the ministerial authority to take the action that he did and exactly where did that authority come from. We have the NWT Wildlife Act. We have the NWT Act. We have treaties. We have land claim agreements. We also have

Section 35 in the Canadian Constitution that recognizes an inherence to aboriginal rights in Canada in regards to treaty rights and the rights of First Nations people. I would like to ask the question, under what authority did the Minister make the decision to move forward and the decision to impose this restriction?

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Question 257-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . The honourable Minister of Environment and Natural Resources , Mr. Miltenberger .

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Question 257-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member has basically listed the enabling legislation and subsequent authorities that we have used. The Northwest Territories Act, of course, is what gives us the ability to sit here in this forum to do the work of the people of the Northwest Territories. We have worked, and are working long and hard, to take over the decisions collectively as Northerners for the land and resources. Wildlife is one of the jurisdictions that we have authority over, as Minister Strahl confirmed when he was here last week. So the Northwest Territories Act and the Wildlife Act. Thank you.

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Question 257-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you. My understanding is that I tabled a document yesterday where I believe there was an Order-in-Council passed in 1960, which basically allowed certain restrictions on certain species in regard to barren-ground caribou, muskox, polar bear and the Wood Buffalo. Is that the authority you’re talking about when you talk about the NWT Act, the Order-in-Council that was passed in 1960, is that where you got the authority from?

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Question 257-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you. Clearly that document from 1960 that lists the barren land caribou and muskox, polar bear and bison, is one of the documents that enable us to do the work that we are doing. Thank you.

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Question 257-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Aboriginal people have come a long ways since 1960. In 1960 they weren’t even able to vote.

Since then, Mr. Speaker, the aboriginal people in the Northwest Territories and Canada have progressed to a point where we’re finally recognized in the Canadian Constitution under

Section 35, which recognized the right as aboriginal people and acknowledges their treaties, Treaty 8 and Treaty 11 in the Northwest Territories, and also upholds the land claim agreements that we negotiated. I believe by not finding the legal opinion on what grounds you made that decision on and not falling back on

Section 35 and those land claim agreements, I believe you have not done due diligence by allowing due process in ensuring that you made the decision, you made the right decision and you allowed for due process to take place by consulting all affected parties in this matter. Thank you.

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Question 257-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . I didn’t hear a question there. The honourable Member for Nahendeh , Mr. Menicoche .

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Question 258-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I want to follow up on Mr. Krutko ’s line of questioning. I did raise it yesterday with the Minister of ENR , Mr. Speaker. I know that aboriginal people come from a proud history. We tell our youth we as aboriginal people, have a special right, an inherent right in our treaties and one of them is to hunt and fish and trap as long as the sun shines, the river flows and the grass is green. We can hunt to feed our people. However, the Minister of ENR implemented a no-hunt zone, Mr. Speaker.

No one disputes conservation or preservation, but what we’re talking about today is restricting the right of aboriginal people to hunt, fish and trap, most particularly hunt in this no-hunt zone.

I’d like to ask the Minister again, under our NWT Act, 18(3), it says that nothing shall be construed as authorizing the Executive Council to make ordinances restricting or prohibiting Indians and Inuit from hunting for food on unoccupied lands. However, there is a stipulation about a herd being extinct and I’d like to ask the Minister what document, what research, what definition is he using for a herd being extinct, Mr. Speaker? Thank you.

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Question 258-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche . The honourable Minister responsible for Environment and Natural Resources , Mr. Miltenberger .

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Question 258-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think we should also talk about the caribou and the trouble that they’re in and the fact that the herd numbers have gone from 120,000 to 30,000 and that we have to take some action in the short term to make sure that the herd is protected, recognizing that we have to work to accommodate their aboriginal right to harvest, which we want to do and we have done with the Tlicho and we’re working on it with the Yellowknives. We have the authorities under the Northwest Territories Act, any Orders-in-Council subsequent to that, as well as

our own Wildlife Act, which is, as we speak, being redone. Thank you.

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Question 258-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Thank you very much. Canadian case law is full of examples where jurisdictions tried to prevent aboriginal people from hunting and fishing and they’ve always lost in court. Once again, the Minister is challenging our inherent right to hunt and fish. We’re going to go to court, we’re going to win, but I’d like to ask the Minister right now, we’re not talking about lifting the ban, but we’re talking about allowing our aboriginal people to hunt as they always have for hundreds of thousands of years. So will the Minister consider that seriously and immediately? Thank you.

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Question 258-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you. We are not talking about restricting or removing any rights, we are talking about conservation, we’re talking about an accommodation with the aboriginal governments to ensure that their people have access to subsistence harvest. There is agreement by the Tlicho, support by the Tlicho, support by the Metis Nation. We are working on a resolution with the Yellowknives. We are interested in resolving this. The Members in this House now have become legal scholars, well scripted with legal questions from vast talk and smooth-talking lawyers and that’s not our job.

If there’s a question about our authority, we can have that discussion. We can fill the room with lawyers and technical staff and we can have the debate about are we a duly constituted government, do we have that authority. I suggest to you that clearly we do. Every land claim that has been signed recognizes the need for conservation and the role of the government to be able to step in, and even in unsettled claims areas, 35-1, as well gives us a process to be able to do that carefully, but we are dully constituted to do that.

We’re going to do that very carefully and we want to resolve the outstanding issues with the Yellowknives.

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Question 258-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Thank you very much. If the Minister is creating the law or regulation that charges aboriginal people for hunting and getting them thrown in jail, then he is restricting our inherent right to hunt and fish and trap. So, once again, where does he get that authority that’s based on the definition of a herd being extinct? What is the Minister’s definition of this Bathurst herd being extinct? Thank you.

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Question 258-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you. The science tells us, the numbers tell us, all the work we’ve done with the communities and all the census information tells us that if we just carry on the next, within about two to three years, the Bathurst herd as a separate distinct herd will cease to exist if we just allow the hunting to continue. We have an obligation and a requirement to do the right things to protect the herd and at the same time respect the processes that are now underway with the Wekeezhii and to consult further with the

Yellowknives to come up with a longer term plan. This short-term emergency interim measure allows us to do that. Thank you.

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Question 258-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger . Your final supplementary, Mr. Menicoche .

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Question 258-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Once again, no one disagrees with the short-term emergency measures, Mr. Speaker, it’s about restricting the aboriginal right to subsistence hunting. When it happened with the cod fishing, they’re still allowed to fish for cod. So I’d like to ask the Minister to give that serious consideration and tell this House if he can commit to work towards that before March. Thank you.

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Question 258-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you. I’ll reiterate my commitment and information that I gave when the Member from Hay River South asked the questions. We have discussions underway. We have agreement with the Northwest Territories Metis. The Tlicho Government has supported our efforts for conservation. We have, and continue to have, dialogue and some clear proposals up for discussion with the Yellowknives and we are committed to hopefully resolving this issue in the not-too-distant future. Thank you.

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Question 258-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger . The honourable Member for Weledeh , Mr. Bromley .

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Question 259-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to continue asking questions of the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources on caribou. I’d like to start with, well, temporarily setting aside the whole aboriginal rights issue, the urgency of the caribou. Does the Minister fully appreciate what the caribou mean to the Yellowknives Dene and all aboriginal people? Could he describe his understanding of what they mean?

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Question 259-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bromley . Maybe asking the Minister for his opinion. Mr. Miltenberger .

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Question 259-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

An Hon. Member

It should be ruled out.

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Question 259-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I stand here as the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources . I spent a lot of time over the last few years becoming very conversant in all the issues, mainly wildlife that we’re dealing with. Plus I’ve been around for a long time, long enough to know and fully appreciate the value and importance of caribou to the people of the Northwest Territories as part of the fundamental nature and character of the Northwest Territories and has helped define how the people have evolved over the centuries.

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Question 259-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

I appreciate that note of caution. I do understand that, as well, and I fully understand that the caribou are meaningful and spiritual as well

as in the physical and nutritional and emotional ways. And I think we all do in this House. But I’m wondering if that understanding was carried into the consultation process and, if so, during the consultation process did the Minister receive the go-ahead from the Yellowknives Dene for this ban?

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Question 259-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

The reason we’re still having these discussions with the Yellowknives, of course, is because we haven’t come to a final understanding and agreement on the ban. There is work underway, but, no, the Yellowknives did not approve or support the ban when it was initiated.

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Question 259-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Again, this is by way of making sure that we’re all clear on why we are dealing with this issue today. I would for the record like to ask the Minister why he did then go ahead with the ban.

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Question 259-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Emergency interim measures by definition, in my mind, we were faced with a need to make a decision to protect the caribou otherwise there would be a possible further precipitous decline and under the authorities that I did have or do have I made that very difficult decision to protect the herd and at the same time engage in the measures that were currently underway to find that area of accommodation and support among the aboriginal governments.

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Question 259-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger . Final supplementary, Mr. Bromley .

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Question 259-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Finally, I’d like to know – and I’d like to start by appreciating the Minister’s action along with that of the Yellowknives Dene to get together and talk about this, involve the entire community -- how will this process continue and how will support be gathered throughout the range of the Bathurst caribou to ensure that the solution is acceptable to all and put in place effectively and quickly.

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Question 259-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

I’d like to separate again the two fundamental issues. There’s the short-term issue of the number of months of the ban, which we’re going to sort out here hopefully in the next little while. The longer-range planning within the Tlicho and between the Tlicho and Yellowknives and the Northwest Territories Métis and all the other stakeholders to come up with a harvest management plan is a process that is in fact now underway.

The dates have slipped where the Wekeezhii board has not been able to meet its initial targets, but that longer term process is absolutely fundamental to the well-being and survival of the herds and the involvement of all the aboriginal governments through a co-management process.

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Question 259-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger . The honourable Member for Sahtu , Mr. Yakeleya .

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Question 260-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I listened to MLA Krutko and recall the terms of the rights for aboriginal people that have been fought for long and hard by some very good people. As a matter of fact, my grandfather signed a treaty in 1921, Chief Albert Wright, in terms of having these rights here.

I want to ask the Minister in terms of the protection of the herd and the protection of aboriginal rights with respect to the consultation and this interim measure. The Minister has indicated that he made a decision based on emergency conservation measures. I want to ask the Minister, with respect to the affected parties in the YK Dene in terms of their survival with the herd, has the Minister given that serious consideration prior to putting the ban on this specific herd?

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Question 260-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya . The honourable Minister responsible for Environment and Natural Resources , Mr. Miltenberger .

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Question 260-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the Sahtu Final Agreement, as it pertains to wildlife harvesting and management, it states there that the government shall retain the ultimate jurisdiction for the management of wildlife and wildlife habitats, and in emergency circumstances requiring immediate decisions respecting policies and regulations in respect to the harvesting of wildlife by any person, the Minister may make interim emergency decisions. We see this as an emergency. We’re fully committed. We’ve got resources ready to work with the Yellowknives.

We’ve come to an agreement with the Tlicho Government where they’ve supported this necessity and the alternative measures. We’re working with the Yellowknives to come to, hopefully, a satisfactory conclusion. As well, to address the issue to make sure there is caribou available from other areas. At the same time doing the fundamental issue of protecting the Bathurst herd.

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Question 260-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

The right to hunt and provide food for our people, to teach them many different methods of survival of the aboriginal people. The issue here is in terms of the rights of aboriginal people to hunt for food for their families for their survival. In terms of the attitudes of governments of the past not to recognize aboriginal rights, this is the attitude I see of this government here in terms of putting a ban on hunting without proper consultation with the affected parties. Is the Minister, in terms of his decision with his staff in terms of having traditional knowledge, let the people decide for themselves how to handle the caribou, will the Minister give that to the people?

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Question 260-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

We fully respect and engage in the area of traditional knowledge. In fact, when the caribou work was

being done in the Sahtu, the Member’s riding, Colville Lake was given money because they didn’t really believe the government numbers about the decline of the herd and they were given money to in fact replicate and see what their numbers told them. They came back with the same information, that there was a decline. The Member helped negotiate the Sahtu Agreement where the quote I just made about where there are urgent circumstances, the Minister has the authority to intervene if it’s necessary and can be justified. We’re in the same circumstances here.

The Member should appreciate that he contemplated, when he helped negotiate the Sahtu Agreement, that there is a conservation issue here that we are trying to deal with in the most constructive way possible keeping in mind the need to ensure that there is still the aboriginal right to harvest.

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Question 260-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

At the time of the negotiations I didn’t know Minister Miltenberger would be our Minister in terms of this issue here. I wanted to say that in terms of making reference to residents of Colville Lake, Colville Lake people, I spoke to them the other day, they had some words for it and I can’t say them in the House in terms of the issue of caribou. The Minister has indicated that. I’ll leave it at that.

I want to ask the Minister in terms of the impact of caribou in this here, has he really looked at the impacts of the diamond mines, vehicles that are going into the diamond mines, has that been given consideration in terms of he is putting a lot of weight onto the aboriginal people and that’s not fair. So I want to ask the Minister in terms of his discussions with the money over food in terms of the impacts of the mines and the vehicles.

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Question 260-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

The one thing we know we can control in the short term over this hunting season is the hunt, where we estimated that anywhere from 7,000 to 10,000 animals are taken out annually. When you only have 30,000 animals left, that is a significant impact. We recognize there are concerns about the mines, the resource development, the winter road.

All those projects, I would add, have gone through a fairly thorough environmental assessment process...(inaudible)...but in fact we recognize, as we do the broader, longer term harvest management plan, the issues of cumulative impact and if we look at all the measures required to protect the herd, are the issues about traffic on the winter road and all those other issues related to the mines there for discussion? Absolutely.

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Question 260-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger . Final supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya .

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Question 260-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When it comes to the issue here it seems like the rights of the aboriginal people have taken a back seat to the conservation issue here. This is a basic right given

by the Creator himself in terms of the relationship with the animals. This seems like it’s been taken away by this government here. That is the attitude. I want to ask the Minister with respect to resolving this issue as soon as possible to give the right back to the aboriginal hunters so they can feed their people. I ask the Minister if he can do that.

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Question 260-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

That right is there. It’s not for us to change that right. What we want to do is make the right decisions on the conservation side to ensure that future generations have a resource they can hunt in the coming generations for our children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and on into the future. That is the requirement for the conservation measures that are currently underway in the short term.

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Question 260-16(4): Caribou Management Measures

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger . The honourable Member for Kam Lake , Mr. Ramsay .

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Question 261-16(4): Government Contracting Practices

Oral Questions

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

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Question 261-16(4): Government Contracting Practices

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay . The honourable Premier , Mr. Roland .

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Question 261-16(4): Government Contracting Practices

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The area of sole-sourced contracts, that is one of the tools that the government has available through our Contracts Policy, whether it is negotiated contracts, sole-sourced contracts, public tenders, requests for proposals, requests for qualifications. In the area of the Executive itself, this has been a practice that’s been in place for many years of sole-sourced contracts when we feel that it is necessary to hire an individual who we feel can get the work we need done.

Whether it is in Ottawa or another provincial jurisdiction or whether it is in fact working with our own aboriginal partners in the Northwest Territories. It is a tool that we have available to use when we do this. We follow the guidelines that we have in place.

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Question 261-16(4): Government Contracting Practices

Oral Questions

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

When you do go to a sole-source way of acquiring goods and services, like I said in my statement, the transparency and accountability

take a back seat to hiring whoever you want. I think the people in the Northwest Territories deserve a better way of doing things. I know there are times when sole-sourcing is required. But, for example, in the Department of Executive there is a communications firm, and I won’t mention any names. Hundreds of thousands of dollars have gone to that one outlet. Why wasn’t that put out to RFP? There are many communications companies here in the Northwest Territories that could have bid on that work. Why was that sole-sourced?

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Question 261-16(4): Government Contracting Practices

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

The Member talks about a contract with a firm. I’m not aware of this specific issue that the Member has or the company and will appropriately not address it at this forum. I will be prepared if he wants to sit down with me over this issue and provide him information on that. Right now, without knowing the specifics, I don’t have it at my hands here to make any proper response to.

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Question 261-16(4): Government Contracting Practices

Oral Questions

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

I will take the Premier up on that and give him the name outside of this forum. I wanted to ask the Premier whether or not the Government of the Northwest Territories is monitoring the level of reliance that this government has on consulting services. In my mind, it’s getting worse and whether or not we can try to rein in the spending that this government does in the area of consultants and hiring people to do the work on behalf of the government. Thank you.

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Question 261-16(4): Government Contracting Practices

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

Mr. Speaker, on a regular basis, as we go through our process of approving contracts, there are guidelines that are used, whether they are low-level amounts that the authority has within a department’s authority spending levels or if it a director or even to the deputy minister and also to the Cabinet table. We do look at that, as right now ITI pulls all of our contracting information. We look at that information at times and look at what we’re doing and question department’s on some of the initiatives and why it was needed to go in that area. So we do do that review, yes.

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Question 261-16(4): Government Contracting Practices

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland . Your final supplementary, Mr. Ramsay .

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Question 261-16(4): Government Contracting Practices

Oral Questions

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, going through the contract book, I’d just like to ask the Premier : do former bureaucrats, deputy ministers, have any preferential treatment when it comes to being given sole-source contracts by this government? Thank you.

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Question 261-16(4): Government Contracting Practices

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

Speaker, there is no preferential treatment given to anyone in the Northwest Territories. They have to bring their qualities and qualifications to the table. Now, as the Member has pointed out, there has been a history, whether it’s this government, previous governments, that use either past senior managers, and again, departments, Ministers ha