Oral Questions, Social Assistance Act, Budget — 18 February 1993 (12th Assembly, 3rd Session, pp. 469–494)

1993-02-18, 12th Assembly 3rd Session, pp. 469–494

Northwest Territories — Debates (Hansard)

Oral Questions, Social Assistance Act, Budget — 18 February 1993 (12th Assembly, 3rd Session, pp. 469–494)

1993-02-18, 12th Assembly 3rd Session, pp. 469–494

Northwest Territories — Debates (Hansard)

Debates of Feb. 18th, 1993

This is page numbers 469 - 494 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was chairman .

Topics

Members Present

Item 1: Prayer

Long-term Staff Housing Strategy

Pay Equity

Motion To Move Minister's Statement 34-12(3): To Committee Of The Whole

Hiv Infection And Aids In The Nwt

Member's Statement Regarding Accusations Made By Media

Dumping Of Contaminants Into The Sea

Details Of Staff Housing Strategy

Alcohol And Drug Workers' Abstention From Intoxicants

Long-term Staff Housing Strategy

Long-term Housing Strategy

Long-term Staff Housing Strategy

Affects Of Alcohol And Drug Abuse

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Delay Implementation Of Constituent's Rent Increase

Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Completion Of Fire Management Review

Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Review Of Fire Management Program

Responsibility Of Education Fees For Inmates

Honorariums To WCB Members

Policy On Inmate Exchange

Social Assistance Vouchers

Payment To NWT Power Corporation President And Board Members

Airline Services In The Keewatin

Return To Written Question 14-12(3): Details Surrounding The WCB Funding For The Federation Of Labour Survey Of Trade Unionists

Item 9: Petitions

Committee Report 10-12(3): Standing Committee On Finance Report On Tabled Document 21-12(3): Payroll Tax Act

Item 11: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Bill 5:

An Act To Amend The Social Assistance Act

Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Item 21: Orders Of The Day

Members Present

Hon. Titus Allooloo , Mr. Antoine , Mr. Arngna'naaq , Mr. James Arvaluk , Hon. Michael Ballantyne , Hon. Nellie Cournoyea , Mr. Dent , Mr. Gargan , Hon. Stephen Kakfwi , Mr. Koe , Mr. Lewis , Mrs. Marie-Jewell , Hon. Rebecca Mike , Hon. Don Morin , Hon. Richard Nerysoo , Mr. Ningark , Mr. Patterson , Hon. John Pollard , Mr. Pudlat , Mr. Pudluk , Hon. John Todd , Mr. Whitford , Mr. Zoe

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---Prayer

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 469

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Good afternoon. Orders of the day. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Kakfwi .

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Minister's Statement 34-12(3): Long-term Staff Housing Strategy

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 469

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. At the request of ordinary Members, I deferred a statement on staff housing yesterday in order to allow the Member for Thebacha to speak about the concerns of the Ordinary Members' Caucus.

It is good that ordinary Members agree that the government is headed in the right direction with its long-term staff housing strategy. Members are also seeking answers to a number of issues which must be addressed in this Assembly.

As a result, a document containing detailed technical responses to the questions will be circulated to all Members on Friday or tabled in the House if translation is completed. The document will help in our discussion of this important initiative.

As you know, I announced the other day that implementation of the strategy will begin July 1, rather than April 1 of this year. This decision was made for a number of reasons. Some of them are technical and concern the serving of rental increase notices. Other reasons deal with concerns by employees that they do not have enough information or they do not understand the level of subsidies which will still be available.

That is understandable. We have been trying to clean up an incredible administrative mess in staff housing which took 25 years to create. The extra time will be used to make sure the 1,800 staff members affected by the changes develop a better understanding of the strategy and will know exactly what the next rates will mean to their personal budgets.

Most Members of this House know that our strategy is long overdue. We have been moving towards this day for at least 12 years now and Members of the Legislative Assembly have been persistent in their direction that the government get out of providing staff housing.

In 1979 a task force on housing made up of union and government representatives came to basically the same conclusions about the solutions needed in the housing sector. In 1985, the Assembly's Special Committee on Housing included a staff housing component in its review. However, the recommendations of the reviews were not fully implemented and, over three years ago, a committee was established and mandated by the former Government Leader to develop the long-term staff housing strategy.

More recently, market rents and user-pay utilities were implemented in Fort Smith, Hay River and Yellowknife. Implementation of these elements of the strategy was described as an interim step pending the completion of the long term strategy that was finalized and announced last December.

Mr. Speaker, it is important to remind ourselves that the housing strategy was designed to meet a number of objectives:

-We want to end the dramatic differences that presently exist in the amount of money paid by employees renting similar sized units, sometimes even within the same community;

-We are determined to narrow the gap between what our staff is paying for accommodation compared to what an employee is the private sector faces each and every month; and

-We want to encourage home ownership and stimulate the growth of private sector housing markets in as many locations as possible. By April of next year, the government will no longer be providing housing units to employees, including Ministers and MLAs, in Yellowknife, Hay River, Fort Smith and Inuvik.

---Applause

Where home ownership is not practical, the strategy will encourage the private sector to develop accommodation. Heavily subsidized rents and utilities in the majority of our communities presently discourage tenants from seeking alternative accommodation, even when it is available. As a result, private developers are putting their money elsewhere. Use of occupancy guarantee provisions of the strategy will provide the type of certainty these developers need in order to get a return on their investment.

The Cabinet is convinced the new strategy, with its provisions for increased rents, user-pay utilities, protection for low income earners and options for home ownership, is the right way to go. We have listened to the concerns of the Members of the Legislative Assembly and have taken the time to listen and consider issues which have been raised by employees. Recent adjustments to the long-term staff housing strategy reflect that commitment.

For instance, user-pay for heating and water/sewage will be implemented July 1, 1994, a little over 16 months from now, rather than September of this year. The delay will give everyone ample time to adjust their expenditures to ensure their shelter costs can be met.

In addition, nurses in the Northwest Territories face some rather unique situations in respect to accommodation. Many of them live in nothing more than a small sitting room attached to a nursing clinic and do not enjoy reasonable levels of privacy, security and comfort.

As a result, the government is adjusting rents for nurses based on the type of accommodation and whether or not they share common facilities such as kitchens and washrooms.

The rents, which include utility charges, will vary from $750 to $1,000 a month. When the standard accommodation allowance is applied to these figures, the actual monthly rate will range from $300 to $550 per month.

Where nurses have reasonable levels of privacy and security, they will be charged a market rate and a flat charge of $150 per month for utilities. Nursing living in detached housing units will be considered in the same manner as all other employees of the government.

In many other cases, tenants are concerned about the condition of their accommodation and disagree with the assigned sizes of their units, which are used to calculate monthly rental rates. We appreciate there are some legitimate concerns. We want to address them in a fair and reasonable manner.

The government knows that some of its units are in poor condition and that this could mean higher than normal heating charges. Because of this, DPW, Personnel and the Housing Corporation staff will travel to all communities to conduct energy efficiency audits and to take new measurements if required. This process will identify units that are not up to standard. Based on this information, the government will lower rents accordingly until the units are repaired. If it is not practical to repair the unit, the lower rental rate will continue.

Because employees and off-highway communities are interested in purchasing their government occupied unit, the strategy has been changed to let them do so, rather than limiting the sale to surplus housing only. All units in non-market communities will be appraised by a private sector appraiser with tenant involvement. The selling price will be based on the cost of replacement, depreciated by the age, and condition of the accommodation.

As well, employees in communities where there are no active real estate agencies, will be able to purchase their units for a cost that is 90 per cent of the depreciated value. This final adjustment recognizes the government will not be paying normal real estate agency fees, legal costs and transactions of this type.

The government believes these changes are positive and that they recognize many of the concerns expressed by employees over the last few months.

We are also confident the strategy will eliminate the conflicting policies currently in place in the public and staff housing programs and that the changes will generate more housing starts by developers and improve the overall housing inventory in the territories.

Combined with the home ownership incentives announced by the Housing Corporation, the new approach to staff housing will provide a package of attractive options for all residents in all areas of the Northwest Territories.

It will also ensure that employees living in government provided accommodation get the kind of protection they need, should they not be able to pay for the cost of their shelter.

There has been a great deal of concern over the implementation of the hardship allowance. Many employees see it as a form of social assistance and are insulted that a wage earner should have to apply for it. As a result, we have revised our thinking on this matter. So, instead of a hardship allowance, tenants will receive shelter assistance provided in the form of a rental reduction. It will make sure that total shelter costs will not exceed 30 per cent of gross household income.

Gross household income means the combined total incomes earned by every person living in each household including salaries, commissions, investment interests, pensions and the standard accommodation allowance. Settlement allowances, however, will be excluded. Income from such sources as child tax credit payments, boarding allowances for students, retraining allowances, income of full-time students, treaty payments, and social assistance payments will also be excluded.

Exclusion of settlement allowances from gross household income will ensure that tenants in small communities will not have their eligibility for shelter assistance calculated against a higher base income than their Yellowknife counterparts, who enjoy a lower cost of living.

In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, the long-term housing strategy, and the changes I have noted today, should provide greater certainty to occupants of government provided housing and start us towards equity and housing opportunities among all territorial residents. Finally, we welcome the Assembly's review of the strategy and want Members to know that our staff is prepared to sit down with each Member of this Legislature to review the concerns of individual constituents, house by house, or case by case. Thank you.

---Applause

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Minister's Statement 34-12(3): Long-term Staff Housing Strategy

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 470

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Kakfwi .

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Minister's Statement 35-12(3): Pay Equity

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 470

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, at the last sitting of the House, I was asked a question about our pay equity liability. At that time the matter was under negotiations and I asked that I not be forced to answer it, and compromise those negotiations.

Mr. Speaker, the government is committed to the principle of pay equity and wishes to ensure that its employees are treated fairly and equitably. We had hoped for a negotiated settlement to avoid the need for expensive legal proceedings. These negotiations concluded last week. Unfortunately, it was not possible to come to an agreement as the parties were too far apart. Out of respect for the confidentiality of the negotiation process, I will not give you details of our offer or the union's demands. However, I can say that our positions are over $50 million apart.

I am informing Members of the status of these negotiations so that they are aware of a substantial potential pay equity liability. Mr. Speaker, I will keep this House informed of any new developments on this issue. Thank you.

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Minister's Statement 35-12(3): Pay Equity

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 471

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mrs. Marie-Jewell .

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Motion To Move Minister's Statement 34-12(3): To Committee Of The Whole

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 471

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to move the long-term staff housing strategy Minister's statement into committee of the whole. Thank you.

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Motion To Move Minister's Statement 34-12(3): To Committee Of The Whole

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 471

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Is there a seconder to the motion? Mr. Patterson . The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? Minister's Statement 34-12(3) will be placed on the order paper for committee of the whole.

---Carried

Item 2, Ministers' Statements. Ms. Mike .

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Minister's Statement 36-12(3): Hiv Infection And Aids In The Nwt

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 471

Rebecca Mike

Baffin Central

Qujannamiik. (Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will be speaking in Inuktitut. Mr. Speaker, the AIDS virus, known as HIV, has been recognized as a serious concern for the future health of residents of the Northwest Territories since 1986. Since then, a major effort has been made to ensure that all NWT residents were made aware of the risk of infection and how to protect themselves. In spite of knowing about the risks, there is evidence that many people are not taking action. Within communities and regions, the understanding of AIDS/HIV infection is good and improving, but there is evidence that many people are not accepting the information. They are not practising "safer sex."

The patterns of infection in the NWT are unlike that of southern Canada, where the disease is found mainly among homosexual males and in drug users. In the NWT, the pattern is more like that found in most other parts of the world, where the disease is spread mainly by sexual contact between men and women.

Mr. Speaker, in the NWT, HIV infections have been reported in the young and in the old, among men and women, among aboriginal and non-aboriginal, in the "gay" and in the "straight" community, and among the rich and the poor. AIDS can be everyone's disease, and it is everyone's problem. We all must take it seriously if the epidemic now upon us is to be stopped.

It has become clear that public education activities to date have not been successful in changing sexual behaviour, which places people at risk of HIV infection. An effort to find out more about the attitude and beliefs that affect sexual behaviour is under way. Public educational materials will be redesigned to take advantage of information regarding their relative effectiveness.

Mr. Speaker, in 1991 this Assembly took some comfort from the seemingly slow spread of HIV infection among us. This year, there is little comfort from the rapid increase in reported cases and great peril in the evidence that even those who are aware of the risk of HIV infection are failing to protect themselves. We must convince everyone that they are at increasing risk of infection from unprotected sex. Stopping AIDS is up to all of us, the future existence of NWT society is at stake. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Minister's Statement 36-12(3): Hiv Infection And Aids In The Nwt

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 471

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. Mrs. Marie-Jewell .

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Member's Statement Regarding Accusations Made By Media

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 471

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to clarify some accusations that have been made about me recently in the media. I am referring to the Focus North

program, which was aired on CBC February 1 and then on TVNC on February 3, 1993.

Mr. Speaker, it concerns me greatly that the media feels free to make allegations which are completely unfounded with no attempt on their part to verify their story with the person they are accusing. I was fortunate to see this program, but how many others have not been aware that their names have been thrown around with such disregard for the truth. I have learned to be sceptical of what the media chooses to tell the public. I certainly hope others do the same.

In this case, Mr. Speaker, the media insinuated that I had acted improperly while I was a Member of Cabinet. The program said that I awarded "choice government jobs" to family members. This is far from the truth. No evidence was offered to support this allegation and I was not even granted the courtesy of being contacted to see if this was the case. I would like to know what has happened to the journalistic principles of collecting and presenting the facts? I guess, in the eyes of Focus North, these ethics are outdated. They manufacture allegations to suit their story and to cause sensation. They pretend that they are the judge and jury.

After Focus North aired this program, I contacted their office to correct them and gave them the information that they could have obtained from me before airing the story. An apology was aired on the February 8 and 10 programs. Focus North admitted that they were not aware of any instances where I had acted as they suggested. I appreciate that this step was taken. However, I do wonder why the apology did not receive the same air time as the original allegation and why Focus North aired my picture during the original story, but chose not to do so for the apology.

---Applause

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to continue my Member's statement.

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Member's Statement Regarding Accusations Made By Media

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 472

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

The Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mrs. Marie-Jewell .

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Member's Statement Regarding Accusations Made By Media

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 472

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, by choosing not to air my picture during the apology, as they did for the original story, it would not have left the same impression with the public. Rather than making a simple and clear admission that they were wrong, Focus North chose to proceed their retraction with comments that made the apology superficial, at best. It appeared that Focus North was trying to leave room for doubt. I would have hoped that journalistic integrity, if not the wisdom that comes with maturity to admit sincerely when one is wrong, would have required a more convincing apology.

Perhaps, apologies are too embarrassing in the television business. In any event, Mr. Speaker, my comments today are intended to correct any false impression that may have been left as a result of Focus North's shoddy reporting. As well, not everyone watches every episode of that program. I want to make it clear that the allegations and the insinuations made were not justified and not true.

While I was a Member of Cabinet, and in all my dealings with the House, I placed a priority on conducting myself with honesty and candidness, which caused much criticism to be directed my way. I wish all members of the northern media would make a concerted effort to be conscientious of determining the facts before spreading rumours to the public. Thank you.

---Applause

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Member's Statement Regarding Accusations Made By Media

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 472

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Pudluk .

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Dumping Of Contaminants Into The Sea

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 472

Ludy Pudluk

High Arctic

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have to protect the northern environment, specifically, we have to protect the environment surrounding our communities, from all pollutants. PanArctic Oil commenced oil exploration by drilling in the 1960s on the islands of the high Arctic, and are now in the last year of operation. Last year they were given a permit from the federal government to get rid of their metal waste and dump it into the sea. Because they have been given a permit to allow them to do this, they are now asking to do additional dumping this year.

This year PanArctic plans to dump 400 tons of metal waste into the sea. Four hundred tons is about the size of Grise Fiord. The waste the company is planning to dump will not make much difference right now, but as Inuit people know, this will affect the wildlife we have depended on for years and will continue to depend on for years to come.

People living in the high Arctic are very concerned about the dumping of metal waste in the sea by PanArctic, and do not want any more of this, because they know that salt water is so strong it will eventually erode metal and waste contaminants. Waters of the high Arctic are not a dumping ground. PanArctic Oil was not worried about the cost to freight their equipment when they went to the high Arctic, but now that they have completed their explorations they are worried that it will be too expensive to bring their metal waste back down south. This is not acceptable to us.

In 1953 when the federal government relocated the Inuit from northern Quebec to Resolute Bay and Grise Fiord they were not told they were being relocated to a dumping ground.

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Dumping Of Contaminants Into The Sea

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 472

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

You have exceeded the allotted time, Mr. Pudluk .

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Dumping Of Contaminants Into The Sea

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 472

Ludy Pudluk

High Arctic

I would like to ask for unanimous consent to continue.

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Dumping Of Contaminants Into The Sea

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 472

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

The Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Pudluk .

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Dumping Of Contaminants Into The Sea

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 472

Ludy Pudluk

High Arctic

(Translation) Thank you, colleagues. They were not told they were being relocated to a dumping ground. Instead they were told they were being relocated to a land that was clean with an abundance of wildlife and a better future. We do not accept the proposal of PanArctic to, once again, dump more metal waste into our sea because this will affect us in the future. I also think there should be a study done on wildlife in the sea and the food chain of wildlife in the high Arctic. Thank you.

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Dumping Of Contaminants Into The Sea

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 473

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 3, members' statements. Mr. Lewis .

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Details Of Staff Housing Strategy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 473

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Our government has not done well in the handling of its staff housing policy. Mr. Speaker, we expect leadership and a sense of clear policy direction. In this case, I believe most of us agree with the policy objective, however, there has been a lack of clarity in placing those objectives in front of us. Much of this difficulty could have been avoided if the government had announced its policy in less detail. Many of the details could then have been worked out with various employers and associations through joint consultation.

Instead changes are being made as a result of a bewildering variety of assaults on the policy from many quarters. It has made the government look very bad in my opinion. I believe it is now too late to commence a process of joint consultation, since the policy has been announced in considerable and ever-changing detail.

Agreeing to joint consultation, Mr. Speaker, should not be seen as a mechanism for subverting the will of the policy-makers. It should not be seen as a sign of weakness. It should be viewed as the very best way of ironing out the details with the people most affected by the policy. This is not a major public policy issue, Mr. Speaker. It is really a matter of a relationship between our government and the staff it employs to carry out its issues and its will.

The degree to which this issue is now dominating the political agenda of this Assembly is an affront when there are so many major issues affecting the future of our territories to be considered. If we find this issue dominates our time and effort to the exclusion of other pressing matters, Mr. Speaker, the fault clearly lies with this government in the way this issue has been handled.

I shall not be pursuing it publicly in this House because I believe it is a matter between our government and its staff. It should not be dominating an Assembly which is supposed to deal with all the major issues that are affecting the people of the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

---Applause

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Details Of Staff Housing Strategy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 473

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 3, members' statements. Mr. Gargan .

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Alcohol And Drug Workers' Abstention From Intoxicants

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 473

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to comment on the Social Service's policy which requires people who work at community-based alcohol and drug counselling facilities to make a commitment to abstain from the use of intoxicants.

Mr. Speaker, I support this policy. I have supported it right from the outset. I was pleased when my honourable colleague for Thebacha introduced a policy near the end of her term as the Minister of Social Services . I was pleased when both Mr. Whitford and Mr. Patterson continued to recognize the importance of this initiative.

Mr. Speaker, I feel it is more important than ever before to ensure that the dollars we are spending on alcohol drug prevention programs are having a maximum impact. I believe one of the factors in maximizing these effects are the positive role models which are presented to community residents by a healthy outlook and a personal commitment shown by alcohol and drug workers to embrace a substance-free life-style.

Contrary to earlier concerns, I believe this policy has proved to be enforceable and it has not lowered the morale or hindered the recruitment of workers as some opponents previously suggested. I would urge our new Minister of Social Services , the Honourable Rebecca Mike , to ensure this sobriety initiative remains as a basic cornerstone of the Government of the Northwest Territories funding agreements with the alcohol and drug agencies throughout the Northwest Territories.

In doing so, she will be supporting the progress that has been realized to date and continuing the trend that has made the Northwest Territories alcohol and drug programs a leader amongst provincial and territorial administrators. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Alcohol And Drug Workers' Abstention From Intoxicants

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 473

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 3, members' statements. Mr. Patterson .

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Long-term Staff Housing Strategy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 473

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to see that the government is open to making changes and modifications with the new staff housing strategy, and that the desire of ordinary Members to review the policy is welcomed. I am pleased to learn of the four month delay in implementation. The policy has been rushed and many questions are still unanswered. I am glad to see the government is proposing to replace the invidious hardship allowance. I look forward to the details of the shelter assistance policy. I hope it will consider the number of dependents in a household as well as household income.

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Kakfwi and his deputy minister, Mr. Lovely, have been characterizing the anger and opposition over this rent increase as mostly coming from employees who are in it for the money. People, to quote Mr. Lovely, they will be happy to say "goodbye" to. They would have us believe the loudest complaints are coming from two-income, white transient families with a cottage in the south.

In fact, this increase is hitting long-term dedicated employees with families who are committed to staying in the north because of their dedication to being teachers, government administrators, people we do not want to lose. It is also hitting lower level employees with families especially hard. These are often Inuit, most of them are women, these are the core of our clerks, secretaries, classroom assistants and junior teachers who happily constitute between 40 and 50 per cent of the present public service in my region. I will have some specific questions about one such employee later today.

I would like to close this statement by quoting from a very well-respected constituent and a long-term northern resident, in a recent letter to the Minister, Mr. Mike Gardener, writing in his personal capacity and I think some of his advice has been heeded. "I felt I should write you as someone more neutral and detached than some others, being a non-government employee. I do not think anyone can really say they can be detached from the effects of this proposed new policy of yours if it goes ahead as planned. The effect would upset the whole territories for many years to come.

Already I hear so many people talk about leaving the north and they mean it. Its effect would be disastrous for years to come unless a drastic revision of your policy is publicized as soon as possible."

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Long-term Staff Housing Strategy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Patterson , your allotted time has expired.

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Long-term Staff Housing Strategy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Mr. Speaker, I wish to seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement, Mr. Speaker.

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Long-term Staff Housing Strategy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

The Member is seeking unanimous consent to proceed. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Patterson .

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Long-term Staff Housing Strategy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. "I hear of so many people, especially in the smaller more isolated communities, whose rent would be far more than they earn. It is true there is this hardship allowance you mention, but that reeks of welfare and will turn many people off and make them leave the north. If your policy goes ahead, it will leave our hospital here truly understaffed. It is hard enough now to get staff, let alone if their take-home pay were to be severely cut. We have heard about teachers in Igloolik and we can be sure the same would be true of most other communities.

Then there would be a tidal wave effect on the rest of the northern economy, failures of local construction companies, hotels, stores and even hardship for churches."

Mr. Speaker, I hope we can proceed and look at this objectively and cooperatively in order to avoid these dire consequences. I look forward to working with the Minister to that end. Thank you.

---Applause

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Long-term Staff Housing Strategy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Ningark .

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Long-term Housing Strategy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

John Ningark

Natilikmiot

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, along with my honourable colleague, Dennis Patterson , have concerns with the long-term staff housing strategy, as a representative of the Kitikmeot. The civil servants in my region have expressed concerns of a similar nature. The Kitikmeot Teachers' Association held a general meeting which I attended in Kugluktuk. At the time, the Kitikmeot board of education and the chairperson discussed the housing strategy. They expressed their concern regarding the increases. The NWT Teachers' Association chairman was also in attendance.

She made a presentation, and she felt this was being processed too rapidly. They are not overly concerned with the increases but they feel the implementation process is being done too quickly, particularly for the smaller, isolated communities. These communities have not received adequate information, and have not been consulted with by the Minister or his department. The cost of living and transportation costs are very expensive. These things need to be taken into consideration.

Our children are being taught by teachers and we should be concerned about their future. Personally I do not have a problem with the increases. However, I think the policy is being processed too quickly. (Translation ends)

The teachers and the government employees within the Kitikmeot region are willing to comply with the strategy, with the rental increases, but they want fairness in the assessment of the strategy.

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Long-term Housing Strategy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Ningark , your allotted time has expired.

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Long-term Housing Strategy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

John Ningark

Natilikmiot

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

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Long-term Housing Strategy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Ningark . The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Ningark .

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Long-term Housing Strategy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

John Ningark

Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker and my colleagues. Mr. Speaker, the teachers and the government employees of the Kitikmeot region are willing to comply with the strategy, but they want fairness in the assessment. The assessment, by comparing Yellowknife to an isolated community, is not fair. Transportation costs, the availability of housing, the conditions of housing, and the climatic and geographic location of the smaller communities should be considered. As I have stated, Mr. Speaker, the chairman of the Kitikmeot board of education is opposed to the strategy as it is in the context which Mr.

Minister has stated in his Minister's statement. During the appropriate time, I will be asking for action on some of the concerns which came from the Kitikmeot region government employees. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Long-term Housing Strategy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Ningark . Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Pudlat .

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Long-term Staff Housing Strategy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

Kenoayoak Pudlat

Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would also like to speak about the staff housing increases in the north. Mr. Speaker, I represent some of the smaller communities in the Baffin region and they are the northern communities. This proposed policy to raise the rent for staff housing is a concern of my constituents also. If this proposal goes ahead perhaps, Mr. Speaker, it should have some amendments to it before it comes into effect. The people are concerned this will be harmful for the teachers and some of the communities if it is implemented at all once. It should be

implemented gradually. I know this proposal will go ahead, but it should be done gradually rather than doing it all of a sudden. Perhaps the Minister should give more information to those people who are in government staff housing. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Long-term Staff Housing Strategy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 475

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Pudlat . Item 3, members' statements. Mr. Antoine .

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Affects Of Alcohol And Drug Abuse

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 475

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have heard, in this House many times about the impact of alcohol and drug abuse in our northern communities. Mr. Speaker, nothing goes against traditional values that aboriginal women and men have held for centuries the way alcohol and drug abuse does. Nothing violates our homes, threatens the safety of women, children, elders and reduces community productivity the way alcohol and drug abuse does. Nothing harms the spiritual well-being of the individual the way alcohol and drug abuse does.

Mr. Speaker, I am concerned about what is happening with certain aspects of this government's administration of addictions treatment. Nothing is more unacceptable than administrative inefficiency in this area. Mr. Speaker, addictions are a family disease, I believe. It is important, especially within the holistic healing framework that Dene and Inuit have embraced for centuries, that the family should be held as a unit.

I understand that some community alcohol and drug workers have been advised by the Department of Social Services they will not fund out-of-territories referrals for families. I also understand that resources for treating the family unit in the Northwest Territories are limited or non-existent. I have even heard there is not enough money to send clients to specialize treatment programs in southern Canada until April 1993. That is not right, Mr. Speaker. The Minister needs to take a hard look at the decisions her Yellowknife officials have been making in this area.

Chief Steve Kotchea of Fort Liard put it very well when we commented, and I quote "the circle can be broken, but mended with proper treatment." If we are going to keep the circle strong, Mr. Speaker, we must ensure that troubled families are offered opportunities to receive the very best treatment, otherwise we as elected officials will be contributing to the problem rather than the solution. I have faith in the Minister's abilities to correct this problem and I urge her to start working on it immediately. Mahsi cho.

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Affects Of Alcohol And Drug Abuse

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 475

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 3, members' statements. Mr. Gargan .

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Affects Of Alcohol And Drug Abuse

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 475

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Honourable Members will know for a long time I have been advocating changing the benefits that we provide to government employees to better reflect the economic times...

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Affects Of Alcohol And Drug Abuse

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 475

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Sorry, Mr. Gargan , I am told this is your second statement today. That is against the rules.

---Laughter

---Applause

Time had gone so quickly I thought it was only yesterday that you had spoken. Item 3, members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Kakfwi .

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Return To Question 143-12(3): Use Of Federal/territorial Correctional Service Agreement

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 475

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I have two returns. One is in response to a question asked by Mrs. Marie-Jewell on December 1 with regard to use of federal/territorial correctional services agreement. Mr. Speaker, in response to the question concerning the federal/territorial correctional exchange of services agreement, its

preamble sets out reasons for the agreement. Inmates serving sentences of more than two years come under federal authority and would, without the agreement, have to serve time in federal institutions. Some reasons listed in the

preamble why the inmate would be kept in the Northwest Territories, under the agreement, include access to available programs, no security concerns, the particular needs of the offender including access to one's home community or culture and space which is available in our facility.

The decision to allow an inmate in question to remain in the Northwest Territories was a joint decision that included the full support of the Correctional Service of Canada Parole. Inmates considered for retention by the GNWT under the agreement, are those who qualify under the general provisions but specifically we would look at those who are first-time offenders who do not present a risk to the public, who have limited experience in prisons, who are unilingual in an aboriginal language and who are residents in the Northwest Territories or who have lived here for a number of years. Thank you.

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Return To Question 205-12(3): Allowing All Government Employees To Buy GNWT Houses

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 475

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

I have another return. On December 9, 1992 the Member for Thebacha asked if I would consider a change in the sale process for staff housing. It was suggested that rather than providing first preference only to government employees who are living in the units, all government employees of the community should be given equal preference.

Mr. Speaker, the sale process has already started in Hay River, Yellowknife and Fort Smith and the current tenants have been given the opportunity to buy the units they occupy. I do not believe it would be fair to withdraw this option from them now that it has been given. However, if the existing tenants do not exercise their right to buy within the specified time frame, the units that are made available will be turned over to the real estate agents in those communities for sale to the general public at market value.

At that point, all employees in the communities as well as everyone else will have the ability to submit a bid. This process appears to be working quite well in Yellowknife as some units have already been sold through real estate agents. Mahsi.

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Return To Question 205-12(3): Allowing All Government Employees To Buy GNWT Houses

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 475

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Allooloo .

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Return To Question 165-12(3): Reason For Stating Community Not United On Aircraft Maintenance Facility

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 476

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a return to oral question asked by Mrs. Marie-Jewell on December 2, 1992. The final plans for the aircraft maintenance facility in Fort Smith will be completed after the department receives and accesses the recommendations from the review of the forest fire management program. The recommendations will include a requirement for the use of large air tankers as the most appropriate method for managing forest fires. This information is required to complete the final design of the aircraft maintenance facility.

No proposals for constructing the aircraft maintenance facility will be considered until the review of the forest fire management program is completed and assessed. Thank you.

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Return To Question 165-12(3): Reason For Stating Community Not United On Aircraft Maintenance Facility

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 476

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Patterson .

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Question 258-12(3): Delay Implementation Of Constituent's Rent Increase

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 476

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Mr. Speaker, I believe the Minister of Personnel is aware of the case of Shovinai Mike. This lady made plans to move to a new unit before the new staff housing policy was announced, because with a family of six and a husband who is a student, she needed a cheaper unit with lower rent. I think the Minister's staff knew that when she requested the move. The problem, Mr. Speaker, is that she got caught in the new strategy. It was announced as coming into effect April 1, and it will now come into affect July 1, 1993. She has been hit with the new rent right away. This seems very unfair and she is feeling betrayed.

Would the Minister consider ensuring that the implementation of the new rent increase on this employee, who moved in good faith and was told to expect lower rent, will now be delayed until the strategy is finalized?

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Question 258-12(3): Delay Implementation Of Constituent's Rent Increase

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 476

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Kakfwi .

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Return To Question 258-12(3): Delay Implementation Of Constituent's Rent Increase

Question 258-12(3): Delay Implementation Of Constituent's Rent Increase

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 476

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, the Member raised this particular case and brought it to my attention yesterday. I naively thought it was very straightforward and simple, and was quite optimistic I could resolve it right away. However, the Member should be aware that the information which I have received from government officials, who have spoken and met with Ms. Mike in Iqaluit earlier this year, have a different version of what was transmitted to her.

Because of the conflict and the difference about what was understood and what had been agreed to, it is not going to be a simple matter of me giving the Member assurance it will be dealt with promptly. I have assured the Member, however, I will do what I can to give some comfort to his constituent. I have extended to all Members that we will look at all of these particular and specific cases one by one. I hope we are not going to discuss them all in this Legislature. I want to assure the Member we are looking into it and would hope we can resolve it in the next day or so. Thank you.

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Return To Question 258-12(3): Delay Implementation Of Constituent's Rent Increase

Question 258-12(3): Delay Implementation Of Constituent's Rent Increase

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 476

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Antoine .

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Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 476

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Social Services . The Minister may be aware her officials appeared to be telling some community-based alcohol and drug workers that there are no funds to refer clients for specialized addiction treatment outside of the Northwest Territories until April, 1993. Can the Minister assure the House her headquarters staff will stop doing this and give the hard working alcohol and drug counsellors the sort of support which they need to deal with this difficult clientele? Mahsi.

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Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 476

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Ms. Mike .

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Return To Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 476

Rebecca Mike

Baffin Central

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes.

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Return To Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 476

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Supplementary, Mr. Antoine .

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Supplementary To Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 476

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Alcoholism is a disease which strikes at families, not just individuals. Recognizing, in alcoholic households, all members of the family can often benefit from the chance to attend counselling together, how can the Minister explain her headquarters officials refusal to fund family referrals for treatment? Mahsi.

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Supplementary To Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 476

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Ms. Mike .

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Supplementary To Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 476

Rebecca Mike

Baffin Central

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will take the question as notice. Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 476

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

The question has been taken as notice. Item 5, oral questions. Item 6, written questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell .

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Supplementary To Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 476

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to return to oral questions.

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Supplementary To Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Question 259-12(3): Support For Alcohol And Drug Workers

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 476

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to return to item 5, oral questions. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mrs. Marie-Jewell .

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Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 476

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Renewable Resources . When does he anticipate his fire management review to be completed?

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Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 476

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Allooloo .

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Return To Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member has asked me this question on December 2 and I replied that we were targeting for the end of May, 1993. This target date remains the same. Thank you.

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Return To Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell .

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Supplementary To Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, at the same time I asked the question on December 2, I did ask the Minister if he would make a concerted effort to try to complete his review prior to the end of May, and he indicated he would. What steps has the Minister taken to try to complete his review prior to the end of May? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Allooloo .

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Further Return To Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have asked my department to see if we can complete the review. I have been told we will not be able to at the present time. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell .

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Supplementary To Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister indicate to this House the reasons the review could not be completed prior to the end of May?

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Supplementary To Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Allooloo .

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Further Return To Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The people who are involved in fire management, and also interested in fire management in the Northwest Territories, must have input into the review. The company that is doing the review will have to hear from individuals and companies throughout the Northwest Territories, such as bands, corporations and other interested parties. The earliest they feel they can finish the review is the end of May.

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Further Return To Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

This is your last supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell .

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Supplementary To Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, besides hearing he may have a problem in consultation process, he has not really given any specific answer as to why he can not try to complete, or make a concerted effort to complete, this review prior to the end of May. Can the Minister explain, in detail, the impediments which provide him the inability to be able to complete this management review prior to the end of May? Can you give this House any specific reason? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Allooloo .

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Further Return To Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

I will be happy to give this House the detailed plan of the company doing the review. The Members will then be able to see the work plan, dates, et cetera. This will enable the Members to have full information regarding how much time it will take to do certain things. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Question 260-12(3): Completion Of Fire Management Review

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

That was your last supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell . Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Gargan .

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Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice . The Minister made a response with regard to correctional services and the federal government coming into an agreement regarding inmates staying here based on their residency and whether they have committed a crime. During Mrs. Diane Doyle's hearing, the lawyer persistently requested that Mrs. Doyle be allowed to see a therapist in Toronto. I would like to ask the Minister whether or not there has been an exchange of service agreement completed with the Province of Ontario, so that Mrs. Doyle can take advantage of the lawyer's suggestion?

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Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Kakfwi .

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Return To Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, in the exchange agreement we have with the federal government, it is discussed between our officials and the Parole Board of Canada which deals with federal inmates. It is discussed as to who the federal government may request be retained here in our northern institutions. As far as I know, the person they questioned was one that was requested by the federal government to be detained here. We had, simply, complied with it. I am not certain about the specifics of the sentencing and the requirements that should be met. I cannot tell them, specifically, what happened in that instance.

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Return To Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Supplementary, Mr. Gargan .

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Supplementary To Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 477

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. One of the principles taken into account by the Supreme Court Justice when sentencing Ms. Doyle for this serious breech of trust, was that there must be a general deterrence for others in similar positions. Justice Irving was very aware of the fact that Ms. Doyle would serve a sentence of more than two years in a federal institution. I am very concerned about the message that is being sent to others by the privileged treatment that

Diane Doyle is receiving. I would like to ask the Minister why the justice process, and the fundamental principles of which Justice Irving based his decision on, is not being adhered to?

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Supplementary To Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Kakfwi .

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Further Return To Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, it is my view that, aside from our own particular impressions being some distance from the people who are charged with dealing with these issues, there is a fair and objective way in which federal inmates are dealt with in the process. We have, at times, been keeping people in our institutions who have committed crimes that have resulted in serious harm to people, such as sexual assaults, bodily assaults and people who have committed these offenses sometimes more than once. I think we have to keep that in perspective.

I believe we are not doing the public any service by continuing to debate a particular individual sentence. The courts dealt with the individual in question. Corrections Canada, in cooperation with us, has taken on their responsibility under legislation and are dealing with it. I recognize the Member's interest in asking questions about it, but I am not comfortable with continuing this in the Legislature. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Supplementary, Mr. Gargan .

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Supplementary To Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Mr. Speaker, I thought the women's secure facility in Fort Smith I thought would be for women who have committed very minor offenses or light crimes. I just question why Ms. Doyle, who committed a serious offence and is sentenced for three years, is allowed to be left to serve her term here. I have a question, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister with regard to the process. After her sentence was Ms. Doyle shipped south to a penitentiary or was she intervened before the shipment could occur?

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Supplementary To Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

A question such as this would not normally be within the knowledge of the Minister. Would the Minister like to answer in a general sense? Mr. Kakfwi .

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Further Return To Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have no idea of the travel and movements that particular individual went through before finally being...

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Further Return To Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, I do not want to challenge your comments. However, my previous questions to the Minister, respecting this specific inmate, should have allowed him to gain the knowledge that he needed to be able to answer our questions in this House. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you for your comments, Mrs. Marie-Jewell , but it is not a point of order. Item 5, oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell . I am sorry, you did not conclude, Mr. Kakfwi . Would you like to conclude your response?

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Further Return To Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, if I understand the question properly, the Member is inquiring as to whether, because the particular individual was sentenced to more than two years, the federal institution in the south first received her to begin her sentencing before the individual came back north to serve out the length of her term, or did the individual go straight from the time of sentencing to an institution in Fort Smith? I do not know the answer to that question. I will get back to the Member. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Question 261-12(3): Exchange Of Service Agreement With Province Of Ontario

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Zoe .

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Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

Henry Zoe

North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Renewable Resources . This is to follow-up on my colleague's questions. The Minister indicated the review of fire management would be concluded by the end of May. The Minister also knows that the fire season in 1993 starts in May. The findings or recommendations of this review would also require approval from Cabinet as to what they want to implement from those recommendations. Is the government anticipating that whatever decisions are made would not affect this particular fire season? Thank you.

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Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Allooloo .

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Return To Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is more than likely that will be the case for this year. Thank you.

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Return To Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Supplementary, Mr. Zoe .

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Supplementary To Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

Henry Zoe

North Slave

Mr. Speaker, I did not quite understand the Minister's answer. He said that it would most likely be completed. I realize it will be completed by the end of May, but obviously the recommendation from that particular person who is doing the report would have to be brought to the attention of Cabinet and approval would have to be made of some sort to implement those recommendations. Because our fire season starts in May is it going to have an impact on the 1993 fire season, or are they going to wait until the following year to implement their recommendation? That was my question, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Allooloo .

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Further Return To Question 262-12(3): Review Of The Fire Management Program

Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I stated earlier, more than likely, nothing will change this year and for the 1993 fire season. Probably during 1993 the policy will be in place and the changes will take place in the 1994 fire season. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 262-12(3): Review Of The Fire Management Program

Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Supplementary, Mr. Zoe .

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Supplementary To Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 479

Henry Zoe

North Slave

This is with regard to fire management, Mr. Speaker. Could I ask the Minister what our cost is pertaining to this review?

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Supplementary To Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 479

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Allooloo .

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Supplementary To Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 479

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will have to take the question as notice.

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Supplementary To Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Question 262-12(3): Review Of Fire Management Program

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 479

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

The question has been taken as notice. Item 5, oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell .

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Question 263-12(3): Responsibility Of Education Fees For Inmates

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 479

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice . Following up on my honourable colleague from Deh Cho, the public is quite astounded that Diane Doyle, who was convicted of stealing over $270,000 from the territorial government, is now being allowed by our government to serve her three year sentence in the Fort Smith women's facility, instead of a federal penitentiary. However, to further this absurdity, I now have knowledge Ms. Doyle is also enrolled in the management studies program at Arctic College.

---Laughter

This no doubt raises credibility of our correction system, let alone our justice system which the Minister is responsible for. Can the Minister advise this House as to who bears the responsibility of the cost of tuition fees, books and supplies for federal inmates of the Fort Smith correctional facility when they enrol in the Arctic College courses? Thank you.

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Question 263-12(3): Responsibility Of Education Fees For Inmates

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 479

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Kakfwi .

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Page 479

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, the agreement says that, amongst other things, we should make certain programs available to inmates. The federal government gives us a certain amount of dollars every year. We make room in institutions on behalf of the federal government. Inmates have access, even in high security federal penitentiaries, to educational programs. Not all inmates require upgrading. Some have higher educational achievements and if they aspire to be lawyers or financial managers and the courses are available, then it is provided for.

The institution in Fort Smith is a minimum security institution and it is the practice to provide programs off the grounds of the facility. It is seen quite positively by the federal government and ourselves as a way to work towards re-integrating inmates into the community. Thank you.

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Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 479

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mrs. Marie-Jewell .

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Supplementary To Question 263-12(3): Responsibility For Education Fees For Inmates

Question 263-12(3): Responsibility Of Education Fees For Inmates

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 479

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

I recognize, Mr. Speaker, that inmates are allowed to take different programs, even federal inmates, however the majority of the times those programs are available within the institution. This education institution is certainly not within the women's correctional centre. I want to indicate to the Minister, given that the employment opportunities in the management field for someone who has been convicted of major theft and fraud from her employers, certainly is limited. Can the Minister explain the rationale used by his officials to support the enrolment of Ms. Doyle in a management studies program, rather than one that might offer her real employment prospects? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 263-12(3): Responsibility For Education Fees For Inmates

Question 263-12(3): Responsibility Of Education Fees For Inmates

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 479

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Kakfwi .

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Question 263-12(3): Responsibility Of Education Fees For Inmates

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 479

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, in the proceedings in this Legislature, I have always been reluctant to discuss individual people and cases. I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with this questioning. If the questioning is more general without naming a particular individual, then I think the questions would be more acceptable to me. I say, again, that if the Members look closely, there are many people who are serving time within our institutions here who have committed very serious offenses against their communities and sometimes against their immediate family and who have caused serious injury to persons to the point of causing fatalities.

I do not know that to discuss a particular individual at great length without looking at the overall system and the way we deal with people, serves any clear public interest. If the Members feel there are problems with the arrangement we have with the federal government with regard to this particular agreement, I would be prepared to discuss and entertain some suggestions to review this agreement. Whether it be too restrictive or lenient could be debated. As I say, I am increasingly uncomfortable. All the people who go through the courts are dealt with by the courts.

They are sentenced by the courts and the courts give instructions as to how they are to serve out their sentences. The boards and the respective jurisdictions that are set up to serve the courts take on these responsibilities. I do not feel comfortable with the

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Further Return To Question 263-12(3): Responsibility For Education Fees For Inmates

Question 263-12(3): Responsibility Of Education Fees For Inmates

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 479

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Point of Privilege, Mrs. Marie-Jewell .

Point Of Privilege

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Question 263-12(3): Responsibility Of Education Fees For Inmates

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 479

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to raise a point of privilege. One of the fundamental privileges Members have in this House is freedom of speech. Ministers have the responsibility to fulfil government programs, the court processes accordingly. The Minister feels, to some degree, that we are uttering deliberate motives towards a certain individual. I would like you to make a ruling in respect to my freedom of speech in this House, as to whether or not I am allowed to express the concerns of my constituents or of the people of the north in this House. I do not appreciate the comments made by the Minister. He has not answered my question, therefore, I raise on a point of privilege on my

inability to express freedom of speech as a Member. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 263-12(3): Responsibility For Education Fees For Inmates

Question 263-12(3): Responsibility Of Education Fees For Inmates

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 480

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you. The chair actually welcomes an opportunity to deal with this issue because this issue has come up a number of different times. I would allow any other Member who would like to comment or debate on the particular point of privilege brought up by Mrs. Marie-Jewell . I will reserve judgement until tomorrow. I would be very interested in hearing Members' feelings about this particular issue before I make a judgement. Mr. Kakfwi .

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Question 263-12(3): Responsibility Of Education Fees For Inmates

Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 480

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I want to make it clear, I am not interested in restricting the right of Members to say whatever they want to say. There are rules in the Legislature for this. There is also an attachment in front of our names which compels us to act honourably. My point is simply that this is a question of policy, a question of some matters which the courts, independent bodies from legislatures and government, deal with.

My point is that if there is a problem with the perception of the system, as we have it in place, such as the courts and correctional facilities, and such as the agreement we have with the federal government to keep certain inmates who normally would serve time in a federal penitentiary, that is where the line of questioning and concerns should be.

What I was stating while trying to answer the question, is if it evolves around the way in which a particular person is perceived to be treated, then I have difficulty with it because it is discussing a particular individual who has no recourse to defend themselves or make a case. I do not like the perception that this is the only way to go. I think there is a different way to approach the issues, but we have to identify the issue. If there are problems with this agreement we have with the federal government, I would like to know what they are so that we can address them.

If there are problems with the way in which we run the institution in Fort Smith, I would like to hear what they are. This is simply the point I was trying to make, I was not asking that Members be restricted in their right to speak. Thank you.

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Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 480

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Are there any other comments? Mr. Gargan .

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Page 480

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I do not know how much opportunity we should give this individual to defend herself. One of the recommendations was that the individual be allowed to attend a therapist in Toronto. One of the reasons her sentence was three years was for a deterrent from such a thing to happen again. Yet, here we are allowing this individual to stay here and to go to Arctic College. In my opinion we have 9,000 civil servants...

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Page 480

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Excuse me, Mr. Gargan , right now I am permitting debate on the pros and cons of the point of privilege brought forward by Mrs. Marie-Jewell as opposed to the actual issue itself. Please limit the discussion to the pros and cons of that particular question of privilege. Mr. Gargan . Mr. Koe .

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Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 480

Fred Koe

Inuvik

I have had problems with some of the other questions I have asked in this House dealing with issues and speaking about individuals who have raised issues. We as Members are asked many times, by constituents, to raise specific concerns or are asked by other residents in other communities to raise issues on their behalf. In the north, we have a small population base and many of our communities are small, so when we speak about a certain professional, a certain position or a certain individual almost everyone knows who we are talking about.

I had great concern when the Minister said that we should not be referring to individuals by name. I believe that when we deal with some of the issues we have to deal with, or are asked to deal with, we should be allowed to mentioned the individual's name. Thank you.

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Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 480

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Nerysoo .

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Page 480

Richard Nerysoo

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, on this matter which is before us, I do not think anyone would argue about the matter of the right and freedom of speech which every Member has. However, I would like to raise a particular concern as it applies to matters which have been raised. Perhaps I might mention Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, citation 511, "the freedom of speech accorded to Members of Parliament is a fundamental right without which they would be hampered in the performance of their duties.

The Speaker should interfere with the freedom of speech only in exceptional cases where it is clear that to do otherwise could be harmful to specific individuals." I think the questions which are before you may in fact cause those particular situations to occur. However, that is not to suggest, Mr. Speaker, that any Member should not have an opportunity or the right and the freedom of speech to raise any particular issues that they so feel and wish to raise in this House.

I would also note, Mr. Speaker, that citation 493 of Beauchesne's also suggests that the Speaker has cautioned Members 493(4) with regard to protected persons. "The Speaker has cautioned Members to exercise great care in making statements about persons who are outside the House and unable to reply."

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Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 480

Some Hon. Members

Hear, hear.

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Page 480

Richard Nerysoo

Mackenzie Delta

I believe this is absolutely crucial for us all, no matter what circumstances we are in, to ensure the credibility and the respect which is accorded to Members of this House and to the Assembly. I think it is crucial that I, for instance, be able to ensure that I am accountable for policies of this government as is every Member of this House and as such should in fact allow every Member an opportunity to challenge or to change those policies based on their advice and their input. I ask all Members, Mr.

Speaker, to review this particular matter carefully and cautiously, not with the intention of in any way reducing freedoms in this House, but to take care, ensure and uphold the respect and the responsibilities given to Members of this Assembly. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Page 480

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Patterson .

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Page 480

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Mr. Speaker, you do not have an easy job and in this case you are being asked to balance the noble right of freedom of speech with, as Mr. Nerysoo pointed out, the rights of individuals. I believe that even the convicted criminal has some rights. As was pointed out, we should be mindful, in this House, that an individual about whom questions are asked, has no right of reply. I must say, Mr. Speaker, that I have been quite appalled at some of the personal attacks on individuals, in this House, by name, where the individual has no right of reply. I am not going to pontificate about what your

ruling should be on this matter, but I suggest that the dignity of this House requires that, wherever possible, these issues should be pursued as questions of policy, without exposing people who have no right of reply, to the potential for being victimized. Thank you.

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Revert Back To Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 481

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Are there other comments on this issue? Mrs. Marie-Jewell .

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Page 481

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is in respect to following up on some of my concerns. Even though it does appall some Members, it is a concern to my constituents. I want to indicate, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister has a statutory responsibility to exercise certain duties related to individuals in the correctional system and I, as a Member, hold him accountable. Members should be able to ask questions that allow the perfo

Document details

CollectionNorthwest Territories — Debates (Hansard)
Citation1993-02-18, 12th Assembly 3rd Session, pp. 469–494
Typehansard
Volume / chapter18
Languageen
Formathtml
SourceTERRITORIAL
Identifiera8a041a317aa71cd35066831d970255dd60004b4

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (html).