Debates of Dec. 2nd, 1993

This is page numbers 363 - 398 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 4th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was facilities .

Topics

Members Present

Item 1: Prayer

Retirement

Child Day Care Program Symposium And Policy Development

Community Policing

Food Allowance

Heritage Legislation

Changes Required To The Apprenticeship Program

Accomplishments Of Mr. Larry Elkin

Responsible Wildlife Resource Management Conference, Belgium

The Appointment Of Municipal Advisory Committee For Iqaluit

Member's Statement Re Unfair Application Of Business Incentive Policy

Renovation Of Fort Providence Church

Requirement For Social Worker In Sanikiluaq

Member's Statement Re Dpw Minister's Visit To Fort Smith

Member's Statement Re Difficulties Of The Visually Impaired

Return To Oral Question 136-12(4): Status Of Superintendent Of Personnel Position, Fort Smith

Return To Oral Question 132-12(4): Cost Of Community Alcohol And Drug Workers' Conference

Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Process For Determining Maximum Value Of Contracts

Social Worker For Sanikiluaq

Method Of Identifying Former Dumping Sites In The Arctic Ocean

GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Maintenance Worker For Sanikiluaq

Ads For Competition For Sanikiluaq Social Worker

Use Of French Newspapers For Advertising Competitions

Cost Of Sending Student From Pond Inlet To Iqaluit

Child Day Care Program Symposium And Policy Development

Consultation On Child Day Care Policy

Cbc Interview Re Local Contractors In Fort Simpson

Development Of Policy For Negotiated Contracts

Effect Of Child Care Facilities In Schools

Communities Not Participating In Contribution Agreements Due To Sobriety Clause

Item 7: Returns To Written Questions

Return To Written Question 2-12(4): Information On Community Pol Sales

Item 8: Replies To Opening Address

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

To Adopt Recommendation 16

To Adopt Recommendation 20

Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Item 21: Orders Of The Day

Members Present

Mr. Allooloo , Mr. Antoine , Mr. Arngna'naaq , Hon. Michael Ballantyne , Hon. Nellie Cournoyea , Mr. Dent , Mr. Gargan , Hon. Stephen Kakfwi , Mr. Koe , Mr. Lewis , Mrs. Marie-Jewell , Hon. Rebecca Mike , Hon. Don Morin , Hon. Richard Nerysoo , Mr. Ng , Mr. Ningark , Mr. Patterson , Mr. Pudlat , Mr. Pudluk , Mr. Whitford

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---Prayer

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 363

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Ningark . Orders of the day. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Madam Premier .

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Minister's Statement 42-12(4): Retirement

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 363

Nellie Cournoyea

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I want to inform Members that Mr. Larry Elkin, President of the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation and the government's longest serving deputy minister, has informed us of his decision to retire from public service on January 4, of next year.

Mr. Elkin has served and strongly supported the interests of the Northwest Territories, in various capacities, over the past 30 years.

He joined our government in 1970, as the assistant regional director in Inuvik, after working with the federal government as a northern service officer in Ottawa, and then in the capacity of an area administrator in Coral Harbour and later, Rankin Inlet.

Mr. Elkin moved from Inuvik to Yellowknife in 1972 to become the chief of program policy and planning and, a year later, he became the director of planning and program evaluation.

He was appointed director of the Department of Local Government in 1976 and became deputy minister of Public Works in 1981, a position he held until assuming his current responsibilities in 1991.

Since joining the territorial government, Mr. Elkin has served many Ministers, Mr. Speaker, including myself.

I have always found him responsible and faithful to the goals and objectives established by the government and a person who always gave more than a fair share of his time and expertise to help solve many of the problems we have faced over the years.

Mr. Speaker, I am sure Members will join me in thanking Mr. Elkin for his dedicated years of service and wish him and his wife a healthy and enjoyable retirement. Thank you.

---Applause

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Minister's Statement 42-12(4): Retirement

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 363

The Speaker

Thank you, Madam Premier . Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Nerysoo .

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Minister's Statement 43-12(4): Child Day Care Program Symposium And Policy Development

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 363

Richard Nerysoo

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When the Department of Education, Culture and Employment received the child day care program from the Department of Social Services on April 1, I announced that we would be reviewing the program and holding a symposium to consult with child day care providers and individuals using and interested in child day care services. I would like to bring you up to date on my department's progress on these initiatives.

Through the interim child day care program, the Government of the Northwest Territories provides subsidies for users of day care and support to child care providers through start-up and operating subsidies and training.

The child day care program provides linkages to other programs offered by my department, by assisting some parents in taking advantage of employment and training opportunities and by creating employment and training and business opportunities within the child care field for residents of the Northwest Territories. The Child Day Care Act and regulations establish standards of safety, health, program content and staff qualifications for child day care facilities and a system of inspecting and licensing to enforce these standards.

In late September, a first-ever Northwest Territories symposium called, Caring for Our Future, was held in Yellowknife for child day care providers and people concerned with child care from across the territories. It was well-attended, with 86 delegates participating. These people were from communities both with and without licensed child care facilities. This enabled broad consultation with virtually every community in the Northwest Territories.

The symposium was designed to serve a number of purposes. First and foremost, we wanted comments on the existing program and recommendations to develop a new program policy.

The symposium also furnished opportunities for professional development on topics identified by child day care providers.

These included, first aid by St. John Ambulance, cross-cultural program planning, self-esteem, family day homes, creative art ideas and storytelling. I was impressed with the enthusiasm, hard work and commitment demonstrated by all attending the symposium.

The policy development workshops addressed program philosophy and standards, culturally relevant training and programming, levels of funding and access to funding, attracting and retaining qualified staff, and partnerships.

Some of the recommendations from these workshops can and will be implemented immediately. These include, coordinating activities between day care centres and agencies such as public health and St. John Ambulance and the development and distribution of a child day care newsletter. Other recommendations will be considered in the development of a permanent child day care policy proposal for the Northwest Territories. These include, recommendations relating to eligibility and funding assistance for parents and day care facilities, as well as recommendations concerning training and standards.

Finally, there are recommendations that are long-term in nature, such as the construction of child day care facilities, which require careful thought and will be considered in the development of the department's strategic plan. I will table a copy of the

summary of recommendations later today.

In addition to consulting on the program through the symposium, the department is currently reviewing the history and administration of the existing program. This review will give a detailed account of the patterns of program funding since 1989, and will help to confirm or identify problem areas in funding.

Analysis of recommendations from the policy workshops, as well as information from the program review, will be used to develop a new child day care policy for the Northwest Territories. Consultation with interest parties will continue throughout the policy development process.

Mr. Speaker, I had hoped to table a proposed child day care policy during this session. However, a thorough review of the program and public consultation is essential if we are going to develop a policy that meets the needs of Northwest Territories residents. The process is well under way, and I plan to have a new policy proposal finalized this winter, which will be ready to be tabled at the winter session of this Assembly. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

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Minister's Statement 43-12(4): Child Day Care Program Symposium And Policy Development

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 364

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo . Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Kakfwi .

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Minister's Statement 44-12(4): Community Policing

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 364

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, today I would like to speak about community policing. The Department of Justice is actively looking at ways of making certain that the policing needs of communities are met. The priorities of the department are priorities that have been suggested to us by the communities and regions, and by Members of this Assembly. These priorities are: a greater presence of native people as police officers; a greater role for community members in the policing of their communities; and, the safety of all community members, especially those who are more vulnerable.

These goals are consistent with the goal, of the Department of Justice and the government, of ensuring that communities control the delivery of services at the local level and with the goal of addressing violence in our society through a policy of zero tolerance.

Fort Good Hope has already put forward the names of its proposed community constables, and plans are made for them to go to the RCMP academy in Regina for training, early in the first part of 1994. At this point, Coral Harbour is having a little difficulty recommending enough participants for the program, but we intend to proceed with a similar pilot project either there or in another community in that region.

We were most disappointed when the previous federal government, at the end of their mandate, cancelled the aboriginal constable development program, an initiative that was useful in providing assistance to a number of aboriginal northerners who are currently serving in northern communities. We will be encouraging the new federal government to reconsider this decision.

We believe that NWT communities may also wish to consider policing alternatives which would provide them with even greater authority over their own police services. Officials from the Department of Justice met just last week with representatives of the RCMP and the federal Solicitor General's department, to identify exactly the kind of support we can expect from the federal government in pursuing our goals.

One of the options that the Solicitor General has put forward involves tripartite agreements for RCMP services, between the federal government, the territorial government and a community. This would continue RCMP services, but would provide for greater community control, and would include a commitment to provide an aboriginal police officer to the community within a specified time. Before the end of this fiscal year, we hope to complete a framework agreement with the federal government, to enable these tripartite agreements to be developed.

These tripartite agreements are only part of the picture, though. It will also be possible for communities or regions to move toward the development of independent policing services. I support making this option fully available. Of course, there will need to be a local consultative process to determine that whatever is developed meets the needs of all community members. If a community or region wished to move toward a fully independent police service, a transitional plan would be developed, to allow for experience to be gained locally, before RCMP services are terminated. Alternatively, there may be mixed RCMP/community policing models which communities or regions may wish to consider.

Before a detailed presentation on these options is made available to Members, to groups and regions, we will be seeking firm commitments from the federal government, concerning global issues related to these changes. For example, we wish to ensure that capital assets belonging to the RCMP, such as houses and detachment buildings, would be transferred to community police agencies. This is an issue which is somewhat unique to the north, because in the south, detachments are rarely located on Indian reserve lands.

Our intention is to develop a clear description of the range of options available, the role of the community and of each level of government, and the steps which would need to be taken. This would be the basis for presentations to communities and regional groups next spring. Community justice specialists in all the regions can play a facilitating role in these presentations, along with senior staff of the Department of Justice.

All of these actions could bring about major changes in policing. As this work develops, we will also need to consider whether it is necessary to have a Northwest Territories Police Act. This could provide the framework for local policing authorities, and for setting policing standards which require all police services to meet a basic level of public protection.

Mr. Speaker, I'm happy to be able to tell Members about these exciting prospects for community policing in the north. I will welcome the comments and advice of all Members as this work proceeds. Thank you.

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Minister's Statement 44-12(4): Community Policing

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 365

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi . Item 2, Ministers' statements. Ms. Mike .

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Minister's Statement 45-12(4): Food Allowance

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 365

Rebecca Mike

Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to correct a statement which I made in this House on Monday, November 29, 1993. When I referred to the increases in the social assistance food allowance, I said that there had been an increase in the allowance in April, 1992. That was in error, Mr. Speaker. The increase of 5 per cent in the food allowance was effective October 1, 1992. Thank you.

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Minister's Statement 45-12(4): Food Allowance

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 365

The Speaker

Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Nerysoo .

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Minister's Statement 46-12(4): Heritage Legislation

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 365

Richard Nerysoo

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The heritage resources of the Northwest Territories are important non-renewable assets that require comprehensive legislation to ensure their protection and preservation for future generations. Existing legislation has become seriously outdated, particularly in light of new directions in the heritage field, current political and economic realities, land settlement agreements and modern land development practices.

To address these issues, my department is developing new heritage legislation. After considerable research and consultation with other departments, Education, Culture and Employment has developed a number of options for this legislation.

These options are presented for discussion in a paper which will be used for consultation this winter with claimant groups, and other established culture and heritage groups in the Northwest Territories. I will provide a copy of this document to each Member of the Assembly. The department will use the information received through consultation, to develop a legislative action paper. The department is prepared to start consultation with interest groups. I expect to table the action paper proposing specific recommendations for new legislation, during the next session of the Legislative Assembly. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

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Minister's Statement 46-12(4): Heritage Legislation

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 365

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo . Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Ningark .

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Changes Required To The Apprenticeship Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 365

John Ningark

Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to talk about the apprenticeship program which is available under this government. There are individuals who are interested in entering the program, from small and remote communities, but are unable to meet the need as quickly as they would like.

The problem is, Mr. Speaker, for example, a journeyman plumber from the region comes to my community and he spends approximately 200 hours per year there. There are potential students who are interested in the apprenticeship program but the requirement is, Mr. Speaker, not acceptable to the people in the small communities. Journeyman plumbers spend approximately 200 hours in the community. According to the system, if the student wants to be eligible to attend these technical institutes, he would have to have 1,800 hours to be eligible.

In order for the person to attend the southern institution, my calculation tells me the person would have to spend about nine years in the community, under the supervision of a journeyman from the region. The problem is, if you live in a small community, you are penalized. I would like the appropriate Minister to seriously look at changing the system in order to make it more accessible to individuals who are interested in remote and small communities. Thank you.

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Changes Required To The Apprenticeship Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 366

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Ningark . Mr. Lewis .

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Accomplishments Of Mr. Larry Elkin

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 366

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the comments made by the Premier about Mr. Elkin, who announced his retirement yesterday. He's a constituent of mine, Mr. Speaker, and a former colleague. In fact, we've known each other for well over 25 years.

We have paid tribute to other deputies in this House, and I remember many of us made comments about the contributions of Mr. Jim Bourque. I won't go over the chronology of events already covered by the Premier , but I should make reference to one or two issues, Mr. Speaker, that may be valuable for people to know.

When Mr. Elkin went to take the northern service officer course in Ottawa, in 1964, it was under the direction of a man called R A J Phillip, known as Rajah. He decided he was going to try to create a northern core of well-trained people, who would have experience in just about every level of government in Ottawa, right throughout the federal public service. Then, when they went north they would be very, very well trained to do the jobs they were going to do. Mr. Elkin spent the year in what was called the northern university. People who went through it were called GNUs.

You became a GNU after you did this one year program in Ottawa. Then you were sent to a community, as a settlement manager or a northern service officer.

In Mr. Elkin's case, he was sent to Coral Harbour and Rankin. The idea was that you would make your mistakes in a couple of places and not have to live with them. That was the theory. You went to one place, obtained experience, then if you screwed up, at least you wouldn't have to live there for the next five or ten years and live with it. So, it was a way of giving people experience in that setting.

I first really got to know Mr. Elkin in 1967, when I was living in Igloolik. I had bumped into him the odd time and he had always struck me as being a fresh-faced young school boy. He looked pretty young. I was a bit of a rebel in those days. I know it's hard for you to believe, Mr. Speaker. But in those days, I was a bit of a rebel.

---Laughter

I remember Mr. Elkin. He was the assistant regional director. I can't remember what the incident was, but I remember in Igloolik it was a cold day, just before Christmas, and he straightened me out just like that. I couldn't believe...

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Accomplishments Of Mr. Larry Elkin

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 366

The Speaker

Mr. Lewis , you allotted time has lapsed.

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Accomplishments Of Mr. Larry Elkin

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 366

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

I seek unanimous consent to continue with my short statement, Mr. Speaker.

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Accomplishments Of Mr. Larry Elkin

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 366

The Speaker

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Lewis .

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Accomplishments Of Mr. Larry Elkin

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 366

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

I was just coming to the exciting bit, Mr. Speaker, about being straightened out by what I thought to be a very young fresh-faced person, who looked as if he was just out of high school. I thought, by God, this person is tough, and he is a person of substance. From that day on, I learned to respect this individual.

I won't go through the details of his career with this government, but I believe the way in which he was trained, Mr. Speaker, may give us some ideas about how we may want to produce senior people in our public service, because we've made a big issue of it many times.

Over 30 years, these are some of the accomplishments of Mr. Elkin, Mr. Speaker. While he was responsible for the Program Planning Evaluation Department, which was part of the Executive at that time -- it was almost like the deputy of the Executive -- he was responsible for the coordination of the project to develop and construct the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage Museum, which was very controversial at that time. It went through, it was built and that's another story.

While he was the deputy minister of Local Government, he spearheaded the development of community government throughout the territories. During this period, more than 17 communities became incorporated, taking over the governing of their own affairs.

Over the last five years -- and we're all aware of this, Mr. Speaker -- he was responsible for the overall coordination of development, design and construction of the new Legislative Assembly building. Not many people know that.

While deputy minister of Public Works and Highways, he developed the effective structure in Public Works and Highways for design and construction, for the vast majority of government infrastructure, including schools, sewer and water systems and housing. These have been used as examples, by other northern countries, of the way things should be built.

He was also chairman of the Construction of Canada/USSR Arctic Sites Exchange Program, and helped to establish good working relationships with the Russian government and the northern republics. He also established the NWT as a leader in design and construction in this northern environment. He established close working relationships between Canada and the USSR, as the chairman of this committee on many items relating to the Arctic.

He has served many Ministers, Mr. Speaker, at this level of deputy minister for the past 20 years, a remarkable achievement. Among my colleagues, he was known as the mandarin. He was the mandarin of mandarins because he had survived so long. It's a remarkable achievement. In my opinion, Mr. Speaker, if you're looking for somebody who could pass on skills to those bright young people who want to be successful mandarins, this is the person you should look at as a resource. He should not be wasted because he does not intend to leave this community. His kids are here. His grandchildren are here and he is committed to doing what he can, I know, to make the north a better place to live. Thank you.

---Applause

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Accomplishments Of Mr. Larry Elkin

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 367

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Lewis . Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Antoine .

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Responsible Wildlife Resource Management Conference, Belgium

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 367

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I would like to tell the Legislative Assembly about my trip this week to Europe and Brussels, Belgium, to speak at the conference on Responsible Wildlife Resource Management, held November 29 and 30, in the European Parliament. Accompanying me, was the deputy minister of Renewable Resources, Mr. Joe Handley.

The conference was organized by the European Bureau on Conservation and Development. This non-profit organization supports the concept of sustainable use of resources. The conference was intended to provide an opportunity for Members of the European Parliament to hear from those responsible for wildlife management throughout the world. Participants came from Europe, Africa, Greenland, Australia, United States and Canada, all with an interest of maintaining trade in renewable resource products with Europe. This conference was especially important to us, in the Northwest Territories, because 85 per cent of wild fur is sold to the European market.

People we met and talked with include, Members of the European Parliament, representatives of non-governmental organizations including animal welfare groups, and officials from various governments within the European Parliament.

The European Parliament is a big organization which is very complex, with elected representatives from most of the European countries, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Italy, Ireland, Greece, Switzerland and Austria. Each country has representatives, through their allotment of Members of the European Parliament. The parliament reviews laws and regulations proposed by the European Commission, which is like our civil service.

The top decision-making body is the European Council of Ministers, who take advice from the European Parliament before passing the laws and regulations which set out agreements on economic, cultural and political interests of their common goal. Each country, while being independent, agrees to cooperate in ways that satisfy the interests of their constituents.

The European Council of Ministers, the European Parliament and the European Commission are continually lobbied by interest groups which are against the harvest of furs and so forth. The fur industry is of particular interest to European Parliament, largely because of the lobby efforts by animal welfare and animal rights groups. These groups are active in each country and have been effective in reminding Members of the European Parliament that unless animal rights legislation is passed, with humane trapping, the politicians will face consequences, in their constituency, during their next election.

Mr. Speaker, may I ask consent to finish my statement?

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Responsible Wildlife Resource Management Conference, Belgium

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 367

The Speaker

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed Mr. Antoine .

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Responsible Wildlife Resource Management Conference, Belgium

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 367

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Members of the European Parliament, like MLAs in this Legislative Assembly, try to listen to all viewpoints and make their decisions, based on the best information available.

As I said earlier, 85 per cent of our wild fur trade is with Europe. We can not sit back and let animal welfare advocates in Europe influence their politicians so that we may face a ban on wild fur products, like what happened to seal products in the early 1980s.

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Responsible Wildlife Resource Management Conference, Belgium

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 367

An Hon. Member

Agreed.

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Responsible Wildlife Resource Management Conference, Belgium

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 367

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Even though the seal ban was aimed only at stopping the harvest of harp seal pups off Newfoundland, the end result was the destruction of the entire seal fur trade in the Arctic countries. This killed the seal industry for the Inuit harvesters in the Canadian Arctic.

Some animal welfare and animal rights groups who do not understand our situation, would like to stop all fur trade. On behalf of all our trappers and hunters, in fact, of our life-style that has existed for thousands of years, it is important that European politicians and bureaucrats hear our side of the story, at least until we have markets for our furs also established in other parts of the world.

The Department of Renewable Resources has done work assisting trappers to use humane traps. A lot of money has been spent by this government in trapper research, trapper education, trap exchange and public education. All of this investment, as well as our people's life-style, will be lost if we do not protect existing markets, re-establish old ones, or find new markets.

While in Brussels, I explained to the conference why our fur industry is important to us in the north. We have few other alternatives for most of our people, and we have made good progress in changing our way of trapping. Our harvests are more humane, than the current practices that exist in other parts of the world, such as cattle feed lot operations, pig farms, egg farms and slaughter houses. Our trapping methods are more humane than those.

I explained how our people have lived in harmony with their environment for thousands of years and continue to manage their renewable resources. Our presentation explained to them about our people and our land. I believe the European politicians have a better understanding of our situation and the need to support what we are doing.

As well as attending the conference, I met with individual Members of the European Parliament, their staff, scientists, non-governmental organizations that support the fur trade and those who are against the killing of all animals. All three days in Brussels were full, from morning to evening. It was a very busy schedule. Indications are that the fur trade, including seal pelts, is making a come back around the world. It is important that we position ourselves to take full advantage of this opportunity. In my mind, we can best do this by marketing our furs, exclusive furs from the north. For example, calling it Arctic Furs, an exclusive product.

For too long, our furs have not been marketed to their best advantage. We have to establish ourselves as producers of a unique, high quality product, such as the Russians did long ago with their sable, which is a cousin of our martin.

Animal rights activists are responding to the upturn in the fur trade, by redoubling their efforts to have the proposed 1995 humane trapping legislation made so demanding that we will kill the fur trade.

On January 1, 1995, the European council regulations to ban the import of furs caught in leg hold traps, will come into effect. While other jurisdictions in Canada might have some difficulty, we in the Northwest Territories, can meet the target date because of the efforts of the trappers and the Department of Renewable Resources.

Animal rights groups are now lobbying European Parliaments to change the rules so that every fur producing country has to fully ban leg hold traps. Before anyone can sell wild fur, they want to review and revise international standards for humane traps, to make them even more stringent than they are now, and to put into place more regulations and tests so that it will be impossible to trap wild fur. They are desperate and will do anything they possibly can to influence their politicians.

While we do have allies in Brussels, such as the International Fur Trade Federation and the European Bureau on Conservation Development, unless we personally influence the Members of the European Parliament, I'm convinced that they will be swayed by well organized, well-funded, animal welfare and animal rights groups.

We are at a critical time, Mr. Speaker. The fur trade is making a come back. The European trapping regulations are coming into effect in one year, and in two months, the International Standards Organization or ISO, meets to finalize trap standards. How those standards are defined is critical. If they are too rigid, we will not be able to meet them, and our European markets for wild fur will be gone.

We, as elected MLAs and as aboriginal northerners, have to make at least one more trip to Brussels and to Strasbourg, to influence our European Parliament counterparts. If not, I'm afraid that between now and the ISO meeting in February, animal rights groups will get their way and win.

While supporting organizations and officials can have some influence, it is only as elected representatives that we can talk on an equal basis with the European elected representatives. Those are the ones who will vote on the trap standards and regulations next year.

Going to Europe may seem, to some of you, a bit of a holiday, but it is not. It is a necessity, on behalf of our constituents who are trappers and hunters. The message is clear, our trapping industry is now on the line. Next, it will be our forest industry, which we are just developing.

In some instances, Europeans would like to make us into a living museum of what they have lost. We can not let that happen, for the sake of our lifestyle and our future generations. All the Europeans have been our main fur market for the past 500 years, this may be changing. Yet, we can not alienate or ignore them yet. For at least a few more years, we have to continue to work with Europeans, while establishing other markets for our renewable resource products, perhaps in Asia, North America, South America, as well as in Canada. If we do not, we will close the door on the current markets and see the fur prices fall and the end of the fur industry as we have known it.

I think it is time to be alert, as our global economy unfolds.

Mr. Speaker, I cannot help but be amazed at how small our world is. As I walked down a street of apartment blocks and houses in Brussels, on my way to the European Parliament to talk about trapping in the Northwest Territories...In some ways, it is a long way from europe to a trapper's cabin. Other ways, such as technology, global markets, jets that travel at a thousand kilometres per hour, make our world very small. Landing in pollution-covered Amsterdam and Brussels, also brought home to me how much we have to lobby the rest of the western world to get their environmental problems under control.

---Applause

If they do not, we will not have anything to trap or hunt in the future. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

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Responsible Wildlife Resource Management Conference, Belgium

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 368

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Antoine . Mr. Patterson .

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The Appointment Of Municipal Advisory Committee For Iqaluit

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 368

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, tomorrow I will be returning to my constituency to attend a public meeting Monday night, called by the municipal administrator to discuss the status of the town of Iqaluit. I would like to acknowledge the support I've received from the Honourable John Todd , Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, for early appointment of an advisory council. I understand, from Mr. Todd , that the appointments could be made in time for members of the advisory committee to participate, along with myself, in Monday's public meeting.

I also want to thank Mr. Todd for agreeing that meetings of the advisory council and the municipal administrator will be held in public. Finally, I want to thank the Iqaluit Chamber of Commerce and the Iqaluit Ratepayers' Association, and their presidents, Mr. Stephen Roberts and Ms. Anne Crawford, respectively, for their work in soliciting and putting forward a list of very capable and representative citizens of Iqaluit who are willing to sit on this advisory committee at such a critical time for the community. I am confident that whoever Mr. Todd appoints, from the list of names submitted, we will have a very capable advisory committee .

Mr. Speaker, there are very many important issues for them to pursue. The first, being an accurate statement of the current financial situation of the town of Iqaluit, which is still not available today despite Mr.

Beaumont having been in office for three weeks; ensuring that the financial statements are prepared by independent auditors with no previous involvement in the debenture controversy; advising on collective bargaining negotiations now under way; planning capital projects, such as a new community hall, paving and dump relocation; ensuring that the interests of ratepayers are protected, in matters such as the future of the Apex road subdivision; the handling of the dismissal of the senior administrative officer; and, finally, and most important, preparing for an early election of a new council.

Mr. Speaker, I know my constituents are anxious to put the recent regrettable events in the community behind them, and look forward to a bright future and the challenges ahead. Thank you.

---Applause

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The Appointment Of Municipal Advisory Committee For Iqaluit

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 369

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Patterson . Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Allooloo .

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Member's Statement Re Unfair Application Of Business Incentive Policy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 369

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to make a statement about what I perceive to be unfair application of the business incentive policy, by the regional office of the Housing Corporation in Iqaluit. A constituent of mine in Pond Inlet, Simon Merkosak, lost out on a contract to do the electrical work on three houses. He is of Inuit descent, and employs mostly local people in his contracting business.

Mr. Speaker, the reason he lost out on the electrical contract for the three houses in Pond Inlet was that he had to import an NWT journeyman electrician from Montreal --his brother-in-law -- to do the supervising and installation, thereby making his company ineligible for any percentage reduction in his bid under the business incentive policy. In his bid, Mr. Merkosak received no consideration whatsoever under BIP, for any of the factors other than the labour costs involved with the hiring of an electrician.

On the other hand, Mr. Speaker, Kheraj Enterprises of Resolute Bay received the contract to do the work because they beat out Mr. Merkosak only after the BIP was applied to their bid. Kheraj Enterprises received consideration under the BIP program because Kheraj stated in his contract documents that he would be hiring a long-term resident electrician from Yellowknife to do the work. Mr. Speaker, it turned out that the person who did the electrical work was from Newfoundland and was not a long-term northern resident.

Mr. Speaker, I am very concerned about the application of the BIP in this case. If we're going to award contracts, we must make sure that the contractor involved lives up to the commitments made in the successful bid. Mr. Speaker, I will be pursuing the matter further in question period. Thank you.

---Applause

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Member's Statement Re Unfair Application Of Business Incentive Policy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 369

The Speaker

Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Gargan .

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Renovation Of Fort Providence Church

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 369

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today, I wish to speak on the Lady of Fort Providence Church. The church was in very bad condition. During the last few years, the community has been renovating it to restore the church to its original conditions. The priest advised us last week at church, that the renovations to the church would be completed the first week of December. We will be able to celebrate Christmas in our original church, for the first time in years.

---Applause

Mr. Speaker, many groups took

part in providing money for this project. The parish raised more than $9,000 through local fund raising and through donations from parishes in the Northwest Territories and southern Canada. The hamlet of Fort Providence donated $5,000, as part of a pledge to match community donations. The hamlet also provided the time of several of their employees, to get this important historical project up and running.

Even though I thought the government was a little slow in coming up with the money to do this project, I'm proud to say that they contributed a total of $77,000 to the renovation of the church in Fort Providence. Mr. Speaker, $57,000 of the money the Government of the Northwest Territories gave to this cause was for the NWT workers' training program. The money was used to hire a carpenter who specialized in historical renovations, to train three Fort Providence residents in carpentry.

The people who have to be thanked individually are too numerous to name. The community rallied around the project and a lot of time and material were donated by the residents of Fort Providence. When you add up all the donations of money, materials and labour, approximately $200,000 was spent on this very worthwhile effort. I'm proud to say that the residents of the community did most of the work. I'm proud of the community spirit that refused to allow the church to be torn down. This project is an excellent example of what can be done, if all levels of government and members of the community work together to complete a project of this magnitude.

I proudly invite any resident of the Northwest Territories, who wants to see this important part of our heritage, to visit us in Fort Providence. Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

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Renovation Of Fort Providence Church

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 369

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Gargan . Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Pudlat .

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Requirement For Social Worker In Sanikiluaq

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 369

Kenoayoak Pudlat

Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to say that, in Sanikiluaq, there has not been a social worker since June, even though social workers go to the community during social assistance days. The government

liaison officer is now responsible for three different areas and the community has gone through hard times because they don't have a social worker. They shouldn't have to be looked after by social assistance workers. Right now, the social workers go to the community just to handle that area. A lot of times, the GLO is given the responsibility to issue social assistance and to do the work of a social worker. That person might not always be there.

In addition, DPW hasn't had a building maintainer in Sanikiluaq since July. Mr. Speaker, the government liaison officer has three responsibilities and she is also holding jobs which can be full-time jobs by two different people. So, we're requesting that they should get a social worker and building maintainer, so they will remedy the problem in the community of Sanikiluaq. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Requirement For Social Worker In Sanikiluaq

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 370

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Pudlat . Item 3, Members' statements. Mrs. Marie-Jewell .

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Member's Statement Re Dpw Minister's Visit To Fort Smith

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 370

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I want to publicly thank the Minister of Public Works and Services for his visit to Fort Smith, on September 7 of this year. Mr. Speaker, I invited the Minister to my constituency, to meet with all the business people in the community.

The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the new academic building to be built in Fort Smith. This meeting gave Fort Smith businesses the opportunity to request that the Minister avoid a tender call on the project and, instead, allow the building to be constructed under project management or negotiated proposal. If this is successful, Mr. Speaker, it will be one of the first projects of its kind in Fort Smith in a long, long time.

Mr. Speaker, I know that Fort Smith residents and businesses, from time to time, have had a reputation of not being able to work together. However, I believe there are many issues which have been addressed by the community pulling together when there were concerns with our local banking. The residents worked together and found a solution very quickly. The tanker base is another example that comes to mind.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister has taken the time to hear the community. I now encourage the Fort Smith businesses and the Department of Public Works to prove they can work together on this project, particularly to complete it successfully, and within the budget forecasted. Mr. Speaker, this is one initiative of a negotiated contract which not only I support, but one which my constituents support.

Mr. Speaker, I commend the Minister of DPW for taking the responsibility of addressing the political concerns of attempting to find a method to ensure our jobs and our funds expended in our economy, stay within our economy. Thank you.

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Member's Statement Re Dpw Minister's Visit To Fort Smith

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 370

The Speaker

Thank you, Mrs. Marie-Jewell . Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Whitford .

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Member's Statement Re Difficulties Of The Visually Impaired

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 370

Tony Whitford

Yellowknife South

Mr. Speaker, as some of the Members will recall, last week I had the opportunity to experience visual impairment, by wearing a pair of special glasses that would simulate low visibility, out in the main hall of our Legislative Assembly. These glasses did, indeed, limit my vision and my ability to move around freely and comfortably, even safely. The experience was scary, but fortunately for me, it was only a simulated demonstration. For over 150 people here in the Northwest Territories, the experience is real and lasting.

The effects do not go away simply by removing glasses or, for that matter, even putting them on. Perhaps a slight improvement can be made by wearing special prescription glasses, but there is nothing like one's own good eyesight. My challenge lasted only a few short minutes. To the visually impaired, it is a daily challenge, perhaps for the rest of their lives.

Mr. Speaker, I believe what the Canadian National Institute for the Blind was trying to make us aware of is, that new buildings must be constructed with consideration for those whose normal activities are in some way impaired by illness or by accident. Here, we have sheet glass walls, protruding landings, doors with automatic closing devices and very light-coloured handles. Mr. Crow, a former Member, would have had a very difficult time here, even with his white cane.

Mr. Speaker, I'd like to thank the CNIB for giving me an opportunity to become more aware of the effects of visual impairment, and for the services they are providing to the people of the north who need their services. Mr. Speaker, there are about 150 known blind or visually impaired persons in the NWT who are using CNIB services. There are about another 200 who have not yet been contacted. The message here is, be aware and take care.

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Member's Statement Re Difficulties Of The Visually Impaired

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 370

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Whitford . Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Ms. Mike .

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Return To Oral Question 136-12(4): Status Of Superintendent Of Personnel Position, Fort Smith

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 370

Rebecca Mike

Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a return to an oral question asked by Mrs. Marie-Jewell on November 29, 1993.

The superintendent of Personnel position in Fort Smith has been vacant since October 11, 1993.

The workload in the Fort Smith Personnel office has been greatly reduced, to the point that we may not need to retain all four positions in Fort Smith. The department is assessing our staff requirements for the Fort Smith office and will be making recommendations to me, before the end of this fiscal year.

We are fortunate in Fort Smith to have two experienced personnel officers who show potential to develop into good managers. Both of them have priority status under the affirmative action policy and are presently enrolled in a management development program at Arctic College. To supplement this program, they will each be acting as superintendent of Personnel for one-month periods, until the position is filled permanently. This combination of course work and practical managerial experience will make them good candidates for a superintendent position.

Our plan is to fill the superintendent position in the spring of 1994.

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Return To Oral Question 132-12(4): Cost Of Community Alcohol And Drug Workers' Conference

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 370

Rebecca Mike

Baffin Central

Mr. Speaker, I have another return to oral question asked by Mr. Patterson on November 29, 1993, on community alcohol and drug workers' conference, March, 1993, cost.

Mr. Speaker, the cost to the Department of Social Services, for the community alcohol and drug workers' conference held at the Yellowknife Inn on March 16 to 18, 1993, was $69,259. Thank you.

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Return To Oral Question 132-12(4): Cost Of Community Alcohol And Drug Workers' Conference

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 371

The Speaker

Item 4, returns to oral questions. Before we go into question period, I'd like to give my ruling on the point of order of the Member for Thebacha .

Speaker's Ruling

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Return To Oral Question 132-12(4): Cost Of Community Alcohol And Drug Workers' Conference

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 371

The Speaker

Yesterday, the Member for Thebacha , Ms. Jeannie Marie-Jewell , rose on a point of order, seeking clarification from the Speaker as to whether Members had the right to ask questions of a Minister which might impinge on the issue of Cabinet secrecy. As Members, including Ministers, are referring, with increasing frequency, to issues involving Cabinet documents, and this area of questioning is somewhat complex, I appreciate the desire of Members to gain a better understanding of the rules and procedures governing this area of parliamentary practice.

First, I would like to place the honourable Member's request for a ruling in context, with the debate in the House. On page 839 of unedited Hansard, the honourable Member for Iqaluit stated that he "understood that the Minister presented a submission to Cabinet for improving the wages of alcohol and drug workers." I wish to make it clear that I did not rule this question out of order. I did, however, caution Members to be careful when they are referring to matters that are not within the knowledge of all Members of this House.

I stated, and I quote, "If the Member has knowledge that is the knowledge of this House about this particular event, then Mr. Patterson can pose his question." Citing documents not within the possession of the House, poses problems for the chair and for all Members. It is a long-standing parliamentary principle that, when documents are the subject of a debate, those documents should be before the House for all Members to review.

I quote from Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules & Forms, 6th edition, citation 495(2), which states, "It has been admitted that a document which has been cited ought to be laid upon the table of the House, if it can be done without injury to the public interest."

The reason for laying documents before the House is clear -- it is to the benefit of all Members, and improves the quality of debate of this Legislature -- if all Members are in the possession of documents referred to in the House and are aware of the facts contained therein. In my brief comments, I was just reminding Members of this principle. At the time that the honourable Member for Iqaluit made his comments respecting the Cabinet submission, I had no knowledge of whether the facts and documentation cited by the Member were within the knowledge of all Members of this Legislature.

With respect to the issue of whether a Member can ask a question involving a matter of Cabinet secrecy, this Legislature is governed by our rules and procedures and by the body of law developed on parliamentary privilege. Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules & Forms, 6th edition, citation 26(1), states, "A question of order concerns the

interpretation to be put upon the rules of procedure and is a matter for the Speaker or, in a committee, for the chairman to determine." Questions pertaining to issues involving Cabinet deliberations can be asked; they are not prohibited by our rules.

Nor is Cabinet secrecy, or the breach of Cabinet secrecy, a matter which invokes a claim to the parliamentary privilege. Beauchesne's, citation 31(8), states, "There is no link between the convention of Cabinet secrecy and the law of privilege."

Cabinet secrecy has long been a political convention in Canada. The essence of effective government is the ability to fully and frankly debate political issues before developing a consensus opinion of the government. Without Cabinet secrecy, the Executive simply could not continue to govern with any degree of solidarity or effectiveness. Cabinet secrecy is only a political convention and is not a rule of this Legislature, nor does it attract the protection of the law of parliamentary privilege.

I again cite Beauchesne's, citation 31(6), which states, "Cabinet solidarity is a question of personal ethics and may be debated in the House, but cannot be made the foundation for a question of privilege." Accordingly, any Member may ask a question of a Minister, eliciting information on Cabinet deliberations. These types of questions will not be ruled out of order, as they contravene no rules or privileges of our Legislature. It will be the responsibility of the Minister to whom the question is asked, as to whether they invoke Cabinet secrecy and refuse to answer the question.

For the assistance of Members, I direct their attention to Beauchesne's, citation 416(1), which states, "A Minister may decline to answer a question without stating the reason for refusing, and insistence on an answer is out of order..."

While the Member for Thebacha does not have a point of order, her request for a ruling in this area was useful to the chair and, I hope, to all Members of the House.

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Lewis .

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Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 371

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, you are very kind. Mr. Speaker, my question is about negotiated contracts. According to Mr. Pollard 's budget address, the government is spending $8 million on negotiated contracts. In his speech, he mentions, even though we go to a northern negotiated contract, contractors are still required to provide full value for money. I would like to ask the Government Leader , since this

is a major issue within the government, how are contractors required to provide full value for money? Is there some kind of value for money audit done on each negotiated contract?

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Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

The Speaker

Minister Morin .

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Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

(Microphone turned off)...Mr. Speaker.

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Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

The Speaker

I am sorry, the question was directed to the Premier .

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Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

Nellie Cournoyea

Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I have been listening to some of the questions over a period of time and, in terms of value for money, I would like to get a clarification from the honourable Member on that term. What does he mean by value for money?

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Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

The Speaker

Mr. Lewis , would you care to clarify?

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Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

I will quote from the budget address. "Although competitive tenders are not called, the northern project contractor is still required to provide full value for money." I quote that from page three of the budget address. So I would like to ask the Premier , since this is a major policy issue for the government, how do you determine whether a contract provides full value for money? There is such a thing as a value for money audit, which is different than the normal audit that is conducted under the normal rules of audits.

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Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

The Speaker

Madam Premier .

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Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

Nellie Cournoyea

Nunakput

In the overall negotiated contracts, the contract price is fairly well predetermined. There is a budget allocation for a certain project. The department responsible, generally knows about how much those projects are going to cost. When a contract is brought forward, it takes into consideration what we had determined to be the amount that would be required for that project.

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Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

The Speaker

Supplementary, Mr. Lewis .

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Supplementary To Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are negotiated contracts in several different departments of government. So, on what basis do you decide which contracts should be negotiated, and which should not? What is the basis for deciding?

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Supplementary To Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

The Speaker

Madam Premier .

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Further Return To Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

Nellie Cournoyea

Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, generally the Minister responsible for the particular department evaluates whether the negotiated contracts would bring maximum benefit. Other times, there are different organizations they are aware of, or development corporations, that request they be given a

chance at the various opportunities that might be within their region. It is evaluated on that basis.

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Further Return To Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

The Speaker

Supplementary, Mr. Lewis .

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Supplementary To Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again, in Mr. Pollard 's budget address, he said that contractors may not beat expectations, with respect to performance and satisfactory project completion. Since we are looking at full value for money, in the case of the negotiated contract in the building of the airstrip at Lutsel K'e, I know there will be a very large supplementary appropriation request. Mr. Todd , Mr. Morin and Mr. Pollard have indicated that contractors getting these negotiated contracts are required to provide full value for money. Is that what is meant by full value for money, that we are to be required to have a lot more money than was originally planned, to build a particular facility?

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Supplementary To Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

The Speaker

Madam Premier .

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Further Return To Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

Nellie Cournoyea

Nunakput

Not necessarily, Mr. Speaker. By and large, most negotiated contracts come in at the estimated cost that has been negotiated. From time to time, there are project officers assigned to the project as well, particularly, if people need some extra support to get going. In terms of the specific contract you are talking about, I would say with the past experience on negotiated contracts, that was an anomaly. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

The Speaker

Supplementary, Mr. Lewis .

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Further Return To Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

My final supplementary is to Mr. Morin , since he is in the House. Mr. Morin conducted an interview, Mr. Speaker, with...

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Further Return To Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

The Speaker

Mr. Lewis , your line of questioning is directed to the Premier and you would have to complete that line of questioning to the Premier for your final supplementary. Mr. Lewis .

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Supplementary To Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 372

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Okay, I will direct the same question to the Premier . As I understand it, Mr. Speaker, the Minister responsible for Public Works had an interview with CBC on December 1. During that interview there was an exchange between Mr. Hamilton and Mr. Morin . Mr. Hamilton asked, "At what point do you sit down and start rationally studying and quantifying this provision to see if you are doing the best thing with taxpayers' money?" Mr. Morin said, "We are doing the best thing with taxpayers' money, that is our job, number one." Mr. Hamilton asked, "Is that written down somewhere?" Then, Mr. Morin said, "It is written down."

I would like to ask the Premier , do you have a policy written down to guide people on negotiated contracts, please?

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Supplementary To Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

The Speaker

Madam Premier .

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Further Return To Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

Nellie Cournoyea

Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, when a request for a negotiated contract comes forward, the procedure is that the Minister responsible would be assessing exactly what that negotiated contract was. He or she would be assessing what the particular group or development corporation intends to do, how they intend to do it and how they will maximize the benefits, which is one of the criteria for negotiated contracts. That is all-encompassed in the request for a negotiated contract. The terms of the negotiated contract are approved on the exact guidelines that are presented. That becomes part of the contract. thank you.

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Further Return To Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Question 170-12(4): Criteria For Demanding Full Value For Money In Government Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

The Speaker

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Dent .

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Question 171-12(4): Process For Determining Maximum Value Of Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Premier , as well. In an answer to Mr. Lewis , the Premier indicated that the objective is to bring the maximum benefit to the north with negotiated contracts. In his statement on northern and local content in transportation contracts, Mr. Todd noted that, "We often pay a premium for these special approaches, but I believe this is an investment worth making."

I was just wondering if the Premier could advise us as to whether she would be willing to table, in this House, the exact process whereby these contracts would be evaluated to determine where that maximum benefit is.

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Question 171-12(4): Process For Determining Maximum Value Of Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

The Speaker

Madam Premier .

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Return To Question 171-12(4): Process For Determining Maximum Value Of Contracts

Question 171-12(4): Process For Determining Maximum Value Of Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

Nellie Cournoyea

Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, certainly.

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Question 171-12(4): Process For Determining Maximum Value Of Contracts

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

The Speaker

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Pudlat .

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Question 172-12(4): Social Worker For Sanikiluaq

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

Kenoayoak Pudlat

Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Earlier I made a Member's statement regarding social services. I have a question for the Minister of Social Services . In Sanikiluaq, we haven't had a social worker since June. The government employee in Sanikiluaq has many responsibilities, including clients, who go to the administrator to receive social assistance. Mr. Speaker, perhaps the Minister of Social Services could respond to the problem in Sanikiluaq. I'd like to know if they can place a social worker in Sanikiluaq in the near future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 172-12(4): Social Worker For Sanikiluaq

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

The Speaker

Minister Mike .

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Question 172-12(4): Social Worker For Sanikiluaq

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

Rebecca Mike

Baffin Central

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member for Iqaluit stated earlier that Sanikiluaq hasn't had a social worker since August 13. They have advertised the position in the papers a couple of times and there hasn't been any interest in the position. At this time, it is being advertised in the north and in the south. The department has occasionally been sending different social workers from other areas, but I would just like to assure you that the advertisement is in the papers right now. Thank you.

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Question 172-12(4): Social Worker For Sanikiluaq

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

The Speaker

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Ng .

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Question 173-12(4): Method Of Identifying Former Dumping Sites In The Arctic Ocean

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

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Question 173-12(4): Method Of Identifying Former Dumping Sites In The Arctic Ocean

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

The Speaker

Minister Kakfwi .

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Question 173-12(4): Method Of Identifying Former Dumping Sites In The Arctic Ocean

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice. I'm not familiar with what initiatives, if any, are under way by the department to address this particular problem. Thank you.

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Question 173-12(4): Method Of Identifying Former Dumping Sites In The Arctic Ocean

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

The Speaker

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Patterson .

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Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier . I understand that these days, in Yellowknife, you cannot find a free meeting room anywhere because of government-sponsored conferences that are going on. This is great for the economy of the city of Yellowknife, and I know this is prime time for Christmas shopping, which may account for the deluge this week. But, my question to the Premier is this, is the Government of the Northwest Territories committed, wherever possible, to spreading conference business and holding government-sponsored conferences throughout the Northwest Territories to spread the economic benefits as widely as possible?

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Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

The Speaker

Madam Premier .

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Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

Nellie Cournoyea

Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, definitely, yes, we are.

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Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 373

The Speaker

Supplementary, Mr. Patterson .

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Supplementary To Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

I'm pleased to hear that, Mr. Speaker. I guess my supplementary question would be, is there a process or policy in place to ensure that departments are aware of this worthwhile objective of our government? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

The Speaker

Madam Premier .

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Further Return To Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

Nellie Cournoyea

Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, Ministers and departments have received letters of direction from myself, frequently, to continue to remind them that there are other places in the Northwest Territories that can offer fine meeting facilities and accommodation. I realize that, from time to time, there are arguments that it is far more appealing to have meetings in Yellowknife, but those directives have been sent out, Mr. Speaker.

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Further Return To Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

The Speaker

Supplementary, Mr. Patterson .

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Supplementary To Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm pleased to hear that. I wonder if I could ask the Premier if she would then be willing to provide Members with copies of these directives, so we can monitor the performance of these directives ourselves? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

The Speaker

Madam Premier .

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Further Return To Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

Nellie Cournoyea

Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, the directives are a letter and a memorandum that went out a couple of times to different people. I can provide that information, but it is in the context of a memo which I know we had done on a couple of occasions during the honourable Member's time as a Minister. I try to keep bringing up that particular issue to the attention of people periodically, because, from time to time, they seem to forget. Thank you.

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Question 174-12(4): GNWT Commitment To Spreading Conference Business Throughout The Nwt

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

The Speaker

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Allooloo .

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Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask this question to the Minister of Government Services and Public Works. It is my understanding that the business incentive policy is to help northern and local businesses that are starting up, to be able to compete in the bigger marketplace. Was it the government's intent, when they were creating the business incentive policy, to help the dollars that are spent on contracts to stay in the Northwest Territories? Is it also to help the local businesses to improve? Thank you.

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Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

The Speaker

Mr. Morin .

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Return To Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The business incentive policy was designed to make an equal playing ground for northern businesses versus southern businesses. There is a 15 per cent preference for northern businesses, and there is a five per cent local preference for local businesses. The spirit and intent of the business incentive policy is to encourage people to hire locally, hire northerners and to encourage northern business development. Thank you.

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Return To Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

The Speaker

Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Allooloo .

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Supplementary To Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In determining where we are applying the business incentive policy, does the government break down the transportation, if the company is using northern transportation, whether they are using accommodation for northerners to work on those jobs? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

The Speaker

Mr. Morin .

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Further Return To Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. All tender documents have a

preamble in front of them when you go to tender. Contractors are informed, and they know that they are supposed to fill out the tender documents properly. They need to fill them out, as stipulated. If they are buying their materials in the north, they get preference. If they are buying them in the south, they won't allow them to receive that preference. If they hire their labour in the north, they will get preference. If they are using northern accommodation, they will get preference for that. All of those preferences will add up.

But, if they do not fill out the document, as is the case of Merkosak out of Pond Inlet, then they are not going to get any preference because we don't read minds. It is very clear, even if you are a local company, if you do not fill out the preference documents or the northern content, then you are not going to get it. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

The Speaker

Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Allooloo .

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Supplementary To Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 374

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Earlier on in this session, the Minister mentioned that, in this contract, Merkosak did not fill out the forms. My question is for the Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation. If the Housing Corporation breaks down a bid package into different components, such as labour costs, transportation costs, accommodation and other miscellaneous costs, why won't a contractor be eligible for consideration under the BIP program for the parts of his bid that met the requirements of this program? If they are found to be lower, why wouldn't they get the contracts?

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Supplementary To Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 375

The Speaker

Mr. Morin .

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Further Return To Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 375

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Within the tender documents, when contractors are requested to fill out the tender documents, there is a form which the contractor must fill out in order for him to get preference. If that form is blank, there will be no preference given to that contractor. That form has to be filled out, prior to the closing time of the tender date. I would be happy to assist Mr. Allooloo 's local contractor, through Housing Corporation staff, to go into Pond Inlet and give him instructions on how to properly fill out the tender documents. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 375

The Speaker

Item 5, oral questions. Final supplementary, Mr. Allooloo .

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Supplementary To Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 375

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. What I am trying to say is that Mr. Merkosak filled out the forms. Because the forms were not returned to Mr. Merkosak, he now cannot prove that he filled them out. When the government employee returned the documents to Mr. Kheraj and Mr. Merkosak, they put Mr. Kheraj's papers in Mr. Merkosak envelope and they put Mr. Merkosak's documents into Mr. Kheraj's. Therefore, Mr. Merkosak received Mr. Kheraj's successful bid and he did not get those forms that he filled out earlier because they were sent to Mr. Kheraj. Mr. Speaker, I will find a letter that was sent to Iqaluit on the date that he was bidding, and table it during the tabling of documents.

Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that a lower bidder, in actual dollars, was not successful. I guess I am making a statement rather than a question. Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Question 175-12(4): Purpose Of Business Incentive Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 375

The Speaker

Mr. Allooloo , I was going to warn you about having a long

preamble. Since you didn't have a question, I cannot even call it a

preamble. If Members can remember, question period is for questions. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Ningark .

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Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 375

John Ningark

Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment Programs, subsequent to my Member's statement that I made earlier in this particular sitting. There are many young people across the north, especially in remote communities, who have big dreams. They would like to get a good education, jobs and raise a family. Because they are living in remote communities, they are not able to fulfil their dreams, to a degree. Our system is partly to blame for that. As I indicated, Mr.

Speaker, the current apprenticeship program does not allow the potential students the opportunity to get a good instructor who is a qualified journeyman. What is the Minister's position on providing more accessible apprenticeship programs for potential students who are residing in remote areas of the Northwest Territories? Thank you.

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Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 375

The Speaker

Mr. Nerysoo .

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Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 375

Richard Nerysoo

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We take the concerns of the honourable Member very seriously. It's an issue that we believe, as a government, and I believe, shows as a Minister, that it is necessary for us to provide more and appropriate training programs to people who live in smaller communities.

I want to indicate to you that part of the initiatives that we are undertaking, along with the Minister of Public Works and Services , is a training and learning program, where we are taking advantage of capital projects to provide training opportunities so that we can encourage young people in the communities to take seriously, the opportunities to become apprentices in the trades areas.

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Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 375

The Speaker

Supplementary, Mr. Ningark .

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Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 375

John Ningark

Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary. It's a current program policy that does not accommodate the needs of the individuals who are, in fact, living in remote parts of the territories in the west or the east. Would the honourable Minister try and modify this policy, in order to accommodate potential students who are not able to get it because of the remoteness of the community? Thank you.

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Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 375

The Speaker

Mr. Nerysoo .

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Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 375

Richard Nerysoo

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I certainly will. I believe it is important enough for us to consider. We are also considering a number of initiatives, including the whole matter of distance education, which could be helpful to those people living in smaller communities, to take advantage of learning or take advantage of potential trades, apprenticeships for their own good.

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Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 375

The Speaker

Item 5, oral questions. If I can take this moment to welcome to the Assembly, Mr. Bob MacQuarrie, a former colleague and a former speaker of this Legislative Assembly.

---Applause

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Pudlat .

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Question 177-12(4): Maintenance Worker For Sanikiluaq

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 375

Kenoayoak Pudlat

Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I have stated earlier under Members' statements, I'd like to ask the Minister of DPW a question. In Sanikiluaq, we don't have a maintenance worker in DPW. I stated that the government liaison officer has a lot of work to do in that region. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of DPW is aware that we have to be more careful of spending money. When we have visitors coming

over to do maintenance work, it probably costs a lot of money to transport workers from community to community. Maybe the Minister for the Department of Public Works can consider getting a maintenance worker for Sanikiluaq, or is there a person available in Sanikiluaq, under the Department of Public Works, who could get employment for there?

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Question 177-12(4): Maintenance Worker For Sanikiluaq

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 376

The Speaker

Minister Morin .

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Return To Question 177-12(4): Maintenance Worker For Sanikiluaq

Question 177-12(4): Maintenance Worker For Sanikiluaq

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 376

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm not aware of this issue. Whether or not there is a PY designated for Sanikiluaq. I understand the Member's concern about having a person in the community to do maintenance and I will follow it up and get back to the Member by tomorrow. Thank you.

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Return To Question 177-12(4): Maintenance Worker For Sanikiluaq

Question 177-12(4): Maintenance Worker For Sanikiluaq

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 376

The Speaker

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Arngna'naaq .

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Question 178-12(4): Ads For Competition For Sanikiluaq Social Worker

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 376

Silas Arngna'naaq

Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would just like to follow up on that question asked by my friend Mr. Pudlat . To the Minister of Social Services , she indicated in her response, that the position for a social worker in Sanikiluaq had been advertised twice now. I find it surprising that a position has been advertised twice, in a time when there's such high unemployment. I'd like to ask her when and where the advertisements took place. Thank you.

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Question 178-12(4): Ads For Competition For Sanikiluaq Social Worker

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 376

The Speaker

Minister Mike .

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Question 178-12(4): Ads For Competition For Sanikiluaq Social Worker

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 376

Rebecca Mike

Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'll have to take the question as notice. Thank you.

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