Debates of Oct. 25th, 2002

This is page numbers 1169 - 1196 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was chairman .

Topics

Members Present

Item 1: Prayer

Lack Of Resources In The Legal Aid Office

Ineffectiveness Of The Affirmative Action Policy

Attendance At The Tenth Annual Dream Catchers Conference

Old Tyme Family Fiddle Dance

Tribute To Heroic Hay River Constituents

Tribute To Fort Simpson's Political Leadership

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

GNWT Fiscal Update

Assistance For Small Business Development

Question Of The Premier's Resignation

Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Petition 3-14(5): Hunting Restrictions On NWT Highway Corridors

Committee Report 11-14(5): Report On The Review Of Tabled Document 64-14(5): Report To The Legislative Assembly Of The Northwest Territories On Termination Compensation To Two Senior Officials By The Auditor General Of Canada

Request For Special Audit By The Auditor General Of Canada On The North Slave Correctional Centre

Review Of The Operation And Accountabilities Of The Committee Structure And System (carried)

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 20: Report Of The Committee Of The Whole

Item 22: Orders Of The Day

Members Present

Honourable Roger Allen , Honourable Jim Antoine , Mr. Bell , Mr. Braden , Mr. Delorey , Mr. Dent , Mrs. Groenewegen , Honourable Joe Handley , Honourable Stephen Kakfwi , Mr. Krutko , Mr. Lafferty , Ms. Lee , Mr. McLeod , Honourable Michael Miltenberger , Nr. Nitah , Honourable Jake Ootes , Mr. Roland , Honourable Vince Steen , Honourable Tony Whitford .

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-- Prayer

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 1169

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee . Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Range Lake , Ms. Lee .

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Lack Of Resources In The Legal Aid Office

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1169

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today I would like to discuss and inform this House about an issue that keeps being brought up to my attention by my constituents, and it has to do with the lack of resources in our legal aid office.

Mr. Speaker, it appears that with the under-funded resources we have with the legal aid, a lot of people in need of legal help are without a lawyer, and when they do finally get one after a prolonged period of waiting, they do not seem to get enough time with the lawyer, so it takes a very long time for them to have their case heard and processed and obtain a decision. Once the decision is reached, the battle continues on with respect to enforcing the decision.

Many of these cases are child support cases where many single parents, usually women, are having to do everything they can and make numerous phone calls and write letters to make sure that the office is doing what is required to enforce those decisions.

Mr. Speaker, I have many many calls in this regard and these under-funded resources have some of them to lose some of the payments or money that is available to the opposing spouse that they could have had on behalf of their children. I believe that this is an issue I brought up many many times before in this House. The lack of resources in this office is a serious concern and it is really having an effect on the families and mothers with children who really need the money every month to support them.

Mr. Speaker, I have asked this question before in this House to the Minister and I ask that Minister again, and I will ask later today, to see what can be done to better resource this office so that those in need of legal aid help can achieve them in a speedy manner and that they get the necessary support they need. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

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Lack Of Resources In The Legal Aid Office

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1169

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee . Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , Mr. Krutko .

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Ineffectiveness Of The Affirmative Action Policy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1169

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise today with regard to an individual who I have been talking to with respect to the whole affirmative action policy that we have in place in this government. This individual has worked for this government for many years yet, Mr. Speaker, she has not seen any movement in regard to enhancing her abilities to move up the ladder and be able to succeed in her career path to be able to take on the challenges of the different areas of responsibility in this government.

Mr. Speaker, the affirmative action policy that we have in place is to ensure that we have a make-up of the government that reflects the population of the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Speaker, I think that this government the has to take on a more important role of enhancing the people we do have working for the Government of the Northwest Territories to ensure that they do succeed in enhancing themselves to move on in the government and move up the ladder, instead of seeing them sitting at the bottom of the wage scale, being the administrative staff and not taking on the responsibility of senior management, middle management, and ensuring that we do not continue the cycle of dependency on southern Canada. We have to develop our human resources within the government and the people that decided to make a career in this government.

Yet, Mr. Speaker, a lot of employees in this government are frustrated to the point of applying for jobs time and time again and being turned down, saying you are either not qualified or the structure of the advertisement of those positions in such a way that you need practically a university degree, or a bachelor of science or what not in different areas.

I think as a government, we have to do more to develop the human resources that we have within our government, but also ensure that we make a career for those people who have made a decision to come work for this government. I think for First Nations people, the whole idea of the affirmative action policy was to do such by way of making sure that this government allows those opportunities to be offered to First Nations people in the Northwest Territories, to really have a role to play in this government, especially where you look at management, senior management, where the big dollars are being made. Yet they continue to be filled from people from southern Canada.

Mr. Speaker, I will be asking the Minister questions on this matter later.

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Ineffectiveness Of The Affirmative Action Policy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1169

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Deh Cho , Mr. McLeod .

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Attendance At The Tenth Annual Dream Catchers Conference

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1170

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I want to make some general comments about the Deh Cho today, especially towards the youth in my riding. Last week, as I announced in the House, last weekend I attended a Dream Catchers Conference in Edmonton. I was very impressed with the whole conference. It was very well-attended.

We had several hundred youth from the Northwest Territories, many different types of workshops and presentations and events happening, and I wanted to commend all of the youth, especially the youth from my riding of the Hay River Reserve, Fort Providence and the youth that we have in the leadership program. They were all well-behaved and were eager participants in all of the events.

I happened to take part and ended up chaperoning for one of the groups and attended the youth dance. I cannot say I did any dancing. I was waiting for a song that I recognized. However, none played for the full four hours that I was there.

I am hoping next year that we will see more people take part, especially the leaders from the North and my colleagues here. I encourage them to come. It is a great time.

This time of the year is also a time for our students in the North and the students in post-secondary institutions, they are all taking mid-term exams. They are all studying hard. I wanted to wish them well and encourage them to stick to their books. I know it is very difficult in our smaller communities to be in the higher classes. However, I encourage them to do their best.

I was talking to an elder the other day and he was indicating that all the challenges and all the different things that are facing our youth, the list is growing. We have AIDS, we have all kinds of diseases. He was saying we should include a lack of education as a part of one, because you cannot, in this day and age, make a healthy living without a good education.

Today I also want to recognize the two pages that we have with us. We have from Kakisa, two hard-working young gentlemen. Dennis Chico and Jeremy Simba. They have been with us all week and will be leaving today. I want to thank them for doing a good job. Also, their chaperone, Elainie Simba.

I also want to welcome two new constituents who were just born in the last couple of days, Kelly Leechman and Gerard Compton.

-- Applause

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Attendance At The Tenth Annual Dream Catchers Conference

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1170

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Sorry, Mr. McLeod , your time wasn't up, but you have hit already three subjects in the one statement. The Chair sort of recognizes the pages as a learning experience, but when we start hitting new constituents... Mr. McLeod , if you wish to continue your member's statement, you need unanimous consent.

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Attendance At The Tenth Annual Dream Catchers Conference

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1170

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

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Attendance At The Tenth Annual Dream Catchers Conference

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1170

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his Member's statement on the first subject. Are there any nays? There are no nays, Mr. McLeod , you may continue.

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Attendance At The Tenth Annual Dream Catchers Conference

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1170

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My comments were on the youth of the Deh Cho. I want to conclude by reminding the people of this House that we need to invest in our youth. Our youth are our biggest resource. I want to encourage this government to do more in terms of setting up more northern conferences where we can get our youth together and have similar types of activities as the Dream Catchers. We can have our own home-grown northern conference. We also are hearing some of our youth centres are having difficulties, and some communities do not even have them. We need to pay some attention to that.

Also, we should be...we have a Minister of Youth . Maybe we should be giving him a cheque-book so he can do some activities and financial...thank you.

-- Applause

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Attendance At The Tenth Annual Dream Catchers Conference

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1170

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. McLeod . Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes , Mr. Allen .

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Old Tyme Family Fiddle Dance

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1170

Roger Allen

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is customary for the Gwich'in and Inuvialuit people of my riding to celebrate special occasions with a feast and dance. We find that this period in our Assembly is no better time than to kick up our heel and toe. This evening, Mr. Speaker, our people will be hosting an old time family dance, fiddle dance at the N'dilo gym.

Our group of friends will be importing the Delta Good Time Band from Inuvik to play the many tunes that were introduced to us by traders, trappers, and those who were invited into our northern homeland. We dealt with many types of those dances, which will be performed by many ethnicities throughout the Northwest Territories tonight.

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the organizers, we would like to invite all Members of this Assembly, family and friends of yours, to come and join us. The potluck dinner will commence around 7:00 p.m. with a dance beginning at 9:00 p.m. and it will end at 2:00 a.m.

Mr. Speaker, it is important to extend our gratitude to the sponsors. I would like to thank First Air, Julia Mott, Gwich'in Tribal Council president, Fred Carmicheal, Super 8 Motel, and especially our colleague from Hay River South, who will be sponsoring the youth jigging contest.

Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I look forward to seeing you all at the gala tonight. Please feel welcome to come. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

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Old Tyme Family Fiddle Dance

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1170

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Allen . Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Hay River South , Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Tribute To Heroic Hay River Constituents

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1170

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today I would just like to pay a quick tribute to three Hay River South constituents for the heroic actions taken on board an Air Canada flight bound for Calgary on Wednesday afternoon of this week. Brian Stewart and his sons, Chad and Travis, were returning from a trip to Frankfurt, Germany. During their flight, about one hour out of Calgary, a man aboard the aircraft lost his senses and began to attack another passenger, striking the other passenger in the face and holding his hands around the other passenger's neck, screaming and yelling.

Apparently, when a person snaps like this, they can have incredible strength, and it took eight passengers and flight crew to subdue this man. But Brian, Chad and Travis Stewart led the group of passengers who apprehended the attacker. They struggled in the area of the seat and the aisle, using seatbelts to constrain him.

Mr. Speaker, this is the type of incident that many people fear will happen in flight, and there is a subtle feeling that something could go wrong, some kind of disturbance and the situation could get out of control, especially in light of what happened on September 11th.

Mr. Speaker, thanks to Brian, Chad and Travis Stewart and the other people like them that are willing to risk their personal safety to protect those around them, even strangers on the airplane, this flight terminated in Calgary safely.

I would like today to just honour their bravery and their courage for rising to defend someone in need of help and join Hay River residents in congratulating these three men for their heroic actions, and also, Mr. Speaker, I know that their grandfather, the Honourable Don Stewart, former Speaker and Member of this House, would have been very proud of their actions and that is just the kind of people that the Stewarts are. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

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Tribute To Heroic Hay River Constituents

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1171

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen . Item 3, Members' statements. Any further Member's statements? The honourable Member for Nahendeh , Mr. Antoine .

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Tribute To Fort Simpson's Political Leadership

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1171

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have been trying to speak on behalf of some of the communities I represent. Today, Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak about the largest community in my constituency, which is the community that I represent, Fort Simpson, or Liidlii Kue.

Mr. Speaker, Liidlii Kue is at the confluence of the Liard and Mackenzie Rivers and it is a historical community. This community has seen many changes over the years and, Mr. Speaker, Fort Simpson is my home community as well. However, as a Dene I grew up about 30 kilometres up the Mackenzie River at a place called...(inaudible)...or Rabbit Skin. Whenever we used to go to town we always were very excited in anticipation of going to Fort Simpson.

Today, Mr. Speaker, Fort Simpson is the hub of much of the Deh Cho region. There are very busy people there. They are in the middle of negotiations on the Deh Cho process, and as well the community is very busy in anticipation of a pipeline and oil and gas exploration.

Today I would like to recognize the men and women who have put their names forward to be leaders in the community. First of all on September 3rd the Metis local had an election and Randy Sibbeston has become the president of the Metis Local 52, along with Danny Peterson, Doris Erasmus, Cheryl Sibbeston, Jonas Lafferty, Denise Alger and Murray Sibbeston. I would like to congratulate them for putting their names forward to serve their people.

I would also like to recognize the leadership of the Liidlii Kue First Nation with Chief Rita Cli, Gerald Antoine, Ernest Cazon, Ron Hardisty, Kevin Menicosh, Keyina Norwegian, Hazel Tanchi and Isiah Tsetso. As well, Mr. Speaker, the mayor and some of the village councillors are planning to come here next week and they represent the community here very well. Tom Wilson as the mayor, Bob Hanna is deputy mayor, Betty Hardisty, Dieter Cazon, Shone Whelly, Kirby Groat, Duncan Cameron and Andrew Goule.

Mr. Speaker, with this kind of leadership in our communities we have to work with them here as the Legislature, and as every community that we travel to has good leadership I just wanted to recognize those people in my constituency today. Mahsi. Thank you.

-- Applause

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Tribute To Fort Simpson's Political Leadership

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 1171

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Mahsi, Mr. Antoine . Item 3, Members' statements. No further Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Hay River North , Mr. Delorey .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 1171

Paul Delorey

Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today I would like to recognize two very special individuals, Ms. Jenna Hordal and Mr. Matthew Davies. These two individuals have been with us all week as pages in the House and have done a terrific job, very well behaved kids and it has been my pleasure to have them here as Pages. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 1171

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Delorey . Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Weledeh , Mr. Handley .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 1171

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to recognize Major Karen Hoeft from the Salvation Army and a good constituent of mine. Thank you.

-- Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 1171

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Handley . Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Range Lake , Ms. Lee .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 1171

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would also like to recognize someone in the gallery who has been desperately waiting for us to deal with social issues; a well known social activist, Major Karen Hoeft. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 1171

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Welcome to the gallery. Any further recognitions in the visitors gallery. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Range Lake , Ms. Lee .

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Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1172

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do have a question today for the Minister of Justice with regard to the legal aid program. Mr. Speaker, as I indicated in my Member's statement there is definitely a lack of resources being put into this program, and it has been an ongoing problem for many many years. It appears that I am getting an increasing number of calls from people who are having a problem getting a legal aid lawyer and when they do get them they do not get them for enough hours to get their work done, so their issue gets delayed and delayed and delayed. In most cases it is the low income families who are seeking spousal or child support.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister what the department is doing wit regard to this issue. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1172

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Justice, Mr. Allen .

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Return To Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1172

Roger Allen

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are attempting to eradicate many of the shortfalls. As you are aware, there are legal aid plans in serious financial difficulty across Canada. It is a nation-wide problem. Territory-wide we have met with the federal Minister of Justice , the Honourable Martin Cauchon, on October 16th to convey the problems and concerns that because we are a small northern jurisdiction we do have other problems that are so different from the rest of Canada. That was conveyed to the federal Minister. He acknowledged that so we will continue to see how we may be able to improve the level of legal aid services in the Northwest Territories Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Return To Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1172

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Ms. Lee .

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Supplementary To Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1172

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that all the Minister of this government convey to the federal Minister about some of their predicaments, but I do believe there is a responsibility on the Ministers of this House as well. I would like to ask the Minister what is he doing specifically other than talking to the federal Minister about increasing the resources available in this program? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1172

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Justice, Mr. Allen .

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Further Return To Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1172

Roger Allen

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Specific to certain areas of legal aid, we are trying to reduce the backlog in family law cases. We are planning to introduce more collaborative law rather than litigation to resolve disputes and reconsideration of family law tariffs. We are sending a call letter to the private bar to assist with the backlog. Mr. Speaker, we are attempting to find methods to deal with some of the key questions that the Member raises. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1172

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Ms. Lee .

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Supplementary To Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1172

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Given the answer of the Minister, I do not think there is any disagreement that there is a problem with the lack of resources and the people who need the legal services are not getting them, or not getting them on time. I want to know if the Minister is aware of any legal liability that the government might have for those who suffer loss as a result of the untimeliness of their cases being heard or not resolved. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1172

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Justice, Mr. Allen .

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Further Return To Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1172

Roger Allen

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I hope I can provide a legitimate answer by saying that we are trying to attract legal aid lawyers to deal with some of the outstanding issues and hopefully that will help to assist those who are in the greatest need throughout this process. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Further Return To Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1172

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Final supplementary, Ms. Lee .

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Supplementary To Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1172

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are many aspects to this question, but one of the things is that when the people go to this office they are not getting the answers even. They are not getting their calls returned or e-mail inquiries as to what is happening with their cases responded to. I would think that the least the department can do is to talk to the people about where they are with their applications and so on. Would the Minister direct his officials to look after that? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1172

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Justice, Mr. Allen .

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Further Return To Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1172

Roger Allen

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes we are attempting to find solutions. Again the process we are employing here is that we have been in communication with the Legal Services Board, working jointly from the departmental perspective with the Legal Services Board to see if we can find methodologies to correct some of the inefficiencies and where we have identified problems in trying to attract legal aid lawyers to work on cases longer. Hopefully that will be able to resolve some of these questions. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Question 405-14(5): Lack Of Legal Aid Resources

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1172

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , Mr. Krutko .

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Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1173

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for personnel, Mr. Handley , and is with regard to my Member's statement with respect to indigenous native women trying to find employment in this government; and also being promoted, enhanced and allowing them to take on government positions.

I would like to ask the Minister exactly what are we doing to ensure that we do not by-pass the affirmative action policy, especially when it comes to indigenous native women and also women in general?

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Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1173

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The government has undertaken a number of measures in the last three years to ensure that we have people ready to take on jobs. This goes beyond advertising and letting them know there is an affirmative action policy. We are now working on a number of these, and they include things like the internship program. We have made it easier in the nursing field to get into mentoring, and there are a whole host of summer students and so on.

One of the main things we have done, though, is we are working on a new program for staffing appeals, so people do not get the job they are looking for and having a more responsive way than what we currently have for people to be able to appeal a position that they wanted to have. Thank you.

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Return To Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1173

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko .

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Supplementary To Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1173

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister, is there a way of tracking exactly how many non-indigenous aboriginal employees have been hired over priority one employees in regard to ensuring that we do have a system in place to ensure when we look at different departments, to ensure that these policies are carried out throughout the government? Is there anything in place to monitor how many people are being hired in different sectors and exactly what status they are?

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Supplementary To Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1173

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . The honourable Minister responsible for the Financial Management Board , Mr. Handley .

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Further Return To Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1173

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Mr. Speaker, as part of the business plan process, each department is asked to provide fairly detailed affirmative action statistics in terms of who they hired and which positions, whether it is management or whether it is a position in the staff somewhere, so all of those statistics are done regularly as part of the business planning process. We report on it regularly as part of results reporting. If the Member wants something more beyond that, then we would have to look at the amount of time it would take to do it. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1173

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko .

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Supplementary To Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1173

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the whole issue of affirmative action employment opportunities should be scrutinized carefully through the whole Government of the Northwest Territories, regardless of where the hiring has taken place. I believe that the practices that are in place are not adhering to the present policy, so what is the government doing to ensure that this scrutiny takes place?

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Supplementary To Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1173

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . The honourable Minister responsible for the Financial Management Board , Mr. Handley .

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Further Return To Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1173

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, as I said, we do, as part of the business planning process, ask departments to provide pretty detailed information on their hiring practices for that year. As well, we also ask each one to have a human resources planning process in place, so that they can make sure that they have a plan of how they are going to improve their statistics. This includes training on the job and so on.

I think the process is there. It is in the business planning process. If Members wanted to have more detail on a particular region or a particular department and want to do it through some other method, we would be open to looking at how we could facilitate that. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1173

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Final supplementary, Mr. Krutko .

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Supplementary To Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1173

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as we all know, the present policy is not working. As a government, we realize there are problems with regard to how it is being handled and managed, and yet, Mr. Speaker, we hear from the Minister basically saying "We will continue to give you statistics." I would like to ask the Minister, exactly what are we going to ensuring the policy is working in regard to how it was supposedly implemented to ensure that indigenous women in this government have a fair opportunity to enhance this government? What are we doing to change that?

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Supplementary To Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1173

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . The honourable Minister responsible for the Financial Management Board , Mr. Handley .

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Further Return To Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1173

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, we do regularly give our staff in the regions and headquarters and so on, updates on what the expectations are on hiring practices, so if...I take the Member's suggestion that we have to be more thorough on that and we are prepared to do that to make sure the system works.

I will talk with my staff to make sure that we are following up, not just on having the right policies, but making sure that the right policies are being implemented.

I think in the regions, the practices may vary somewhat, depending on people's experience, people's

interpretations, and we have to be continually updating what we are doing and updating our training and professional development for staff in this area. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Question 406-14(5): Employment Advancement Through Affirmative Action

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1174

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Deh Cho , Mr. McLeod .

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Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1174

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask a question to the Minister of RWED regarding the sole-source contract that has been discussed on several occasions in this House. It is not something I made comment on earlier. I do not have any companies in my riding that can handle a water bomber contract. However, I have listened to the Minister indicate and tell us that there is no one else in the North who can handle a water bomber contract. In all likelihood, if a contract went out to public tender, that it would go to probably a joint venture with an outfit from the south.

I would like to know, because I have been receiving correspondence from different companies in the North that indicate that they can handle it. I would like to know if he could tell me, was there an evaluation or an assessment done that allowed them to come to this conclusion that there is nobody else in the Northwest Territories that can handle it? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1174

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. McLeod . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Antoine .

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Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1174

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the whole water tanker initiative by this government started quite a few years ago. Our experience prior to trying to support northern people to get the capacity up to do this work, we were paying a lot of dollars to have these services provided from a southern company in the past. Once the work that was done to try to determine exactly how the type of services that are going to be provided up here, it started about ten years ago, seven years ago when Buffalo Airways was awarded this contract, there was a lot of work done prior to that and at that time.

Since that time, when we were looking at how we can approach what we are going to do here, there has been a lot of work done. An analysis has been done on how things were done in the past to get it to this point in time to raise these arguments. I have discussed this with the department on a number of occasions and went with this direction because of the different work that has been done in the past to develop these arguments. Thank you.

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Return To Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1174

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. McLeod .

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Supplementary To Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1174

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do not know if I heard the Minister indicate to me that there was an analysis of what companies in the North had the capacity to bid on the water bomber contract. I do not believe you can just do a phone call kind of survey. Nobody is going to have a water bomber sitting on their tarmac waiting for a contract. However, if the contract was available in the form of public tender, I am sure they would have got it.

I would like to ask the Minister if he could tell me then if Buffalo Airways had water bombers when they bid on the contract seven years ago, or did they buy them after the fact?

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Supplementary To Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1174

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. McLeod . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Antoine .

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Further Return To Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1174

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have to ask the department exactly what happened seven to ten years ago when this was being developed, but my understanding is that they did have the planes, but they just had to put some tanks on them to make them into water bombers. That is my understanding. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1174

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. McLeod .

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Supplementary To Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1174

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Mr. Speaker, I would have expected the Minister to have those answers before he decided to go to a sole-source contract. He should know the history of how the contracts were awarded initially and he should know what was done to make sure that everybody was on a fair playing field.

I would like to know if this Minister could tell us how he could justify that we have to contract or tender out the smallest of aircraft contracts, even down to $1,000 but yet we can sole source a $30 million contract? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1174

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. McLeod . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Antoine .

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Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1174

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have made these arguments here in the House already and based on northern contractors and the socio-economic benefits that we could get out of doing this approach, I have also said that we have not concluded our negotiations with Buffalo and that there are options that we could probably pursue.

I understand that this is where we are going, I have not received the latest from what is going on in the department except that things have been put on hold right now, trying to determine how we are going to proceed from here. Thank you.

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Question 407-14(5): Negotiated Contract For Air Tanker Services

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Range Lake , Ms. Lee .

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Question 408-14(5): GNWT Fiscal Update

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have heard in the media that this government may be facing some fiscal difficulties in the coming months. The Minister has been quoted as saying that our deficit picture is not looking so well. However, I do not think that we have heard anything formal in this House in that regard. Could the Minister indicate when we might be able to hear that in this House? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 408-14(5): GNWT Fiscal Update

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee . For the benefit of the Chair, would you please indicate who you are directing this too?

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Question 408-14(5): GNWT Fiscal Update

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question on the fiscal picture of the government was directed to the Minister of Finance . Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 408-14(5): GNWT Fiscal Update

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Finance, Mr. Handley .

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Return To Question 408-14(5): GNWT Fiscal Update

Question 408-14(5): GNWT Fiscal Update

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

Joe Handley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, I did give AOC an update on our fiscal situation. I also offered to do some further explanation and description of what steps we would be taking to take it to AOC first before we make a statement in the House. I have had some discussions with the chair on that one, so as soon as we do that I will bring it here if the committee agrees. Thank you.

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Return To Question 408-14(5): GNWT Fiscal Update

Question 408-14(5): GNWT Fiscal Update

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for the Deh Cho , Mr. McLeod .

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Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to go back to a statement I made the other day regarding ammonium nitrate. In my statement I indicated that I was quite pleased to see that this matter was being resolved and a lot of the stakeholders had come together in order to make this happen.

Throughout this whole process the community has indicated to me that some of the government personnel have identified the potential economic opportunity. So I would like to ask the Minister of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development if he could tell me, through all his programs, through all the programs available to the residents of the Northwest Territories if there is an avenue to have Members of his staff work with the community to develop the opportunities that are identified? Thank you.

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Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. McLeod . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Antoine .

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Return To Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have the programs in the Business Development Fund that provides business start up costs to different companies and I see community development corporations as such as a business entity. We have that avenue open and available to pursue in that regard.

As well, there are programs there through Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, through the Business Development Fund as well as the Business Credit Corporation and the Northwest Territories Community Development Corporation and there is even Community Futures in the regions that provide funding.

As a business entity, if they pursue a specific business venture, we provide support in terms of doing business plans and in some cases fund some of these specific projects in terms of grants. There are other financial assistance programs there through these different bodies that I mentioned. Thank you.

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Return To Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. McLeod .

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Supplementary To Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister if he can tell me, I understand that there are funding programs through BDF and BCC and a number of others that the Minister has indicated that can fund community development corporations, but in this case it is more of a government body or a community council. Is there money available to them to do feasibility studies and that kind of leg work that needs to be done to identify the potential of a project? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. McLeod . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Antoine .

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Further Return To Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think there are different values. I know that in some cases with the band councils and Metis locals, we have assisted them so I do not see any difference between a community council getting that kind of assistance as well. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Mr. McLeod .

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Supplementary To Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask a final question to the Minister of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development , if he will instruct his department to do some follow up regarding this issue with Enterprise and the ammonium nitrate and the potential economic opportunity.?Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1175

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. McLeod . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Antoine .

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Further Return To Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1176

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I will instruct the department to work with the community of Enterprise on this. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Question 409-14(5): Assistance For Small Business Development

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1176

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake , Mr. Roland .

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Question 410-14(5): Question Of The Premier's Resignation

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1176

Floyd Roland

Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question will be directed to the Premier . My question would be, is the Premier going to resign as a result of the findings of Tabled Document 64-14(5)? Thank you.

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Question 410-14(5): Question Of The Premier's Resignation

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1176

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Roland . I am going to rule that question out of order. It is a matter that is before a standing committee. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Range Lake , Ms. Lee .

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Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1176

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment and it is in regard to the petition that I tabled in the House on June 18th. Mr. Speaker, I was happy to receive a very quick response from the Minister to the petitions. It was less than a month later. The only thing is that the answer given to a very serious petition signed by a lot of parents and teachers and concerned people in my riding about the class size was responded in a manner that really disappointed those who petitioned and the parents and teachers who held a forum on class size where they wanted to explain the situation of crowded classes in our local school systems.

The answer basically says that the law is the way it is and we cannot change the law and you just kind of have to accept that. I just thought it was a very inconsiderate answer. I would like to ask the Minister, why did he not give any more consideration to this very serious petition? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1176

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes .

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Return To Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1176

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The question and the petition by the residents is a very serious issue, there is no question about that and we do take the residents concerns with a great deal of seriousness and thought. The issue that is before us is the question of going to schools, class size, rather than the PTR being administered on the Territory as a whole, Mr. Speaker.

It is the Territory as a whole that has been put forward through policy and legislation. As we know, we have signed a memorandum of understanding with the Teachers Federation and that memorandum indicated that we would reduce the pupil-teacher ratio in the territory from 18:1 to 16:1 over a four year period. That memorandum of understanding indicated that it would be on a territory-wide basis, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

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Return To Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1176

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Ms. Lee .

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Supplementary To Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1176

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I understand what the PT ratio is. What I am saying and what this petition is saying is that the PT ratio as it is stated is not working. In reality this PT ratio keeps having crowded schools. I also understand what the law says and I do not need the Minister to repeat the law for me. In fact, the response to the petition says that. It says that regulation is the way it is because the law...

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Supplementary To Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1176

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Ms. Lee . I was distracted by several Members carrying on conversations immediately behind you. Would you be able to repeat your question, and I ask Members to please respect the persons trying to get questions, important questions, across to the Minister. Ms. Lee .

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Supplementary To Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1176

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my point is that I understand the PT ratio and I want the Minister to understand that the PT ratio is not working, that it is still creating crowded classrooms in Yellowknife. I understand what the law says. That is the whole point of this petition. The petition is, we want you to change the law. Does the Minister not agree that if enough people, a lot of people, sign a petition saying please Minister look at it, should he not look at it?

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Supplementary To Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1176

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes .

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Further Return To Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1176

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I beg to differ with the Member that it is not working. Across the territory we have increased the number of teachers in the classrooms and that has had an effect, Mr. Speaker. As I said, we have increased the number of teachers and we have gone in a pupil-teacher ratio from 18:1 across the territory to 16:1. Is it an issue that can be addressed? That is a policy issue. The original intent of the whole policy is being followed, Mr. Speaker. We are reducing the number of students in a classroom. There may be certain classes that are larger than 18:1.

I understand that, but the school boards have a lot of opportunity here to address those particular issues. It is not just at a territorial level, it is also school boards where we fund the school boards to address issues and to be able to look at the size of classrooms and to change the make-up of classrooms. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Further Return To Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1176

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Supplementary, Ms. Lee .

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Supplementary To Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1176

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have another Minister telling me that the facts that he has says something different than what the people on the street are saying. I would put to the Minister that it would be hard to find any class that is at 18:1. Most classes are at 30:1. Would the Minister not look at this issue and revisit his policy. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1177

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes .

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Further Return To Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1177

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this is a policy issue. We set out several years ago to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio, and we have done that. We have gone from 18:1 to 16:1, and there is no doubt that it is having a tremendous effect across the Territory. This is an equity issue as well for the smaller schools and the smaller jurisdictions, Mr. Speaker, and it was the intent to distribute across the Territory on an equitable basis. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1177

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Final supplementary, Ms. Lee .

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Supplementary To Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1177

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Do I hear from him that he is going to disregard all of the letters in that petition and all the people who are telling him that class sizes are too big? Is that his answer? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1177

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee . The honourable Minister responsible for the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Ootes .

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Further Return To Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1177

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Mr. Speaker, I am not disregarding the petition. We have explained why we have the system that we do. We have poured in $30 million, Mr. Speaker, over the last four years throughout the Territory in order to be equitable across the Territory. We have done it on the basis of reducing the pupil-teacher ratio across the Territory. We have done it on the basis of ensuring that student support is done across the Territory on an equitable basis. I think that is a good policy, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Question 411-14(5): Response To Petition Regarding The Pupil-teacher Ratio

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 1177

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Item 6, oral questions. Are there any further oral questions? Item 7, written questions. Item 8, returns to written questions. Item 9, replies to the opening address. Item 10, petitions. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta .

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Petition 3-14(5): Hunting Restrictions On NWT Highway Corridors

Item 10: Petitions

Page 1177

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to present a petition dealing with the matter of hunting restrictions in NWT highway corridors. Mr. Speaker, the petition contains 20 signatures of Fort McPherson residents and, Mr. Speaker, the petition required that until the NWT Wildlife Act is enacted all hunting restrictions, including those in effect on NWT highways, remain unchanged and that no new hunting restrictions be introduced. Thank you.

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Petition 3-14(5): Hunting Restrictions On NWT Highway Corridors

Item 10: Petitions

Page 1177

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . Any further petitions? Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. The honourable Member for Frame Lake , Mr. Dent .

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Committee Report 11-14(5): Report On The Review Of Tabled Document 64-14(5): Report To The Legislative Assembly Of The Northwest Territories On Termination Compensation To Two Senior Officials By The Auditor General Of Canada

Item 11: Reports Of Standing And Special Committees

Page 1177

Charles Dent

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to present the report on the Auditor General's Report on Termination Compensation to Two Senior Officials.

Mr. Speaker, the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight wishes to report on its review of the Auditor General's Report to the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories on Termination Compensation to Two Senior Officials. The report was tabled in this Assembly and referred to the committee on October 23rd, 2002.

Mr. Speaker, this report represents the views of the majority of the committee. Appended hereto are the minority reports of two Members.

Members requested this special audit in March of this year because they were not satisfied that all of the information surrounding the circumstances of the termination agreements of the former principal secretary to Cabinet and chief of staff was being made available to them.

The committee has considered the report, and met with the Auditor General to discuss it further in a public meeting on October 24, 2002. The transcript from that meeting is attached as an appendix to this report. The committee agrees with the Auditor General's findings. The audit has confirmed that the terms of the termination agreements were without justification. The staff of the Auditor General have confirmed that those terms were set in place at the direction of the Premier .

Mr. Speaker, the committee recommends that the Legislative Assembly accept the Auditor General's conclusion that the government did not handle the matter reasonably and with prudence.

The committee further recommends that in light of these findings the Premier submit his resignation forthwith as Premier and Member of the Executive Council.

Mr. Speaker, that concludes the report of the Standing Committee on Accountability and Oversight.

Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake , that Committee Report 11-14(5) be received by the Assembly and moved into committee of the whole for consideration. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Committee Report 11-14(5): Report On The Review Of Tabled Document 64-14(5): Report To The Legislative Assembly Of The Northwest Territories On Termination Compensation To Two Senior Officials By The Auditor General Of Canada

Item 11: Reports Of Standing And Special Committees

Page 1177

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Dent . We have a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. To the motion. The House is ready for the question. All those in favour, please signify. Thank you. All those opposed? Thank you. The motion is carried. Committee Report 11-14(5)... The honourable Member for Frame Lake , Mr. Dent .

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Committee Report 11-14(5): Report On The Review Of Tabled Document 64-14(5): Report To The Legislative Assembly Of The Northwest Territories On Termination Compensation To Two Senior Officials By The Auditor General Of Canada

Item 11: Reports Of Standing And Special Committees

Page 1177

Charles Dent

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to waive Rule 93(4) to have Committee Report 11-14(5) moved into committee of the whole for today. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Committee Report 11-14(5): Report On The Review Of Tabled Document 64-14(5): Report To The Legislative Assembly Of The Northwest Territories On Termination Compensation To Two Senior Officials By The Auditor General Of Canada

Item 11: Reports Of Standing And Special Committees

Page 1178

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Dent . Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to waive Rule 93(4). Are there any nays? There are no nays. You have consent. Report 11-14(5) is now moved into committee of the whole for today. Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. Item 12, reports of committee on the review of bills. Item 13, tabling of documents. Tabling of documents. Item 14, notices of motion. The honourable Member for North Slave , Mr. Lafferty .

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Motion 15-14(5): Request For Special Audit By The Auditor General Of Canada On The North Slave Correctional Centre

Item 14: Notices Of Motion

Page 1178

Leon Lafferty

North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I give notice that on Monday, October 28, 2002, I will move the following motion; I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , that this Legislative Assembly request the Auditor General of Canada to undertake a special audit into all aspects and approvals of the processes and decisions that led to the significant cost overruns of the North Slave Correctional Centre; and further, that the Auditor General investigate and consider any other factors in her opinion she feels relevant; and furthermore, that all employees and officials actively cooperate with the Auditor General in providing all appropriate documents, papers, and information; and furthermore, that the government inform its contractors of the nature and purpose of the special audit; and furthermore, that the Auditor General is requested to complete this special audit as soon as practicable and provide a report to the Legislative Assembly.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Motion 15-14(5): Request For Special Audit By The Auditor General Of Canada On The North Slave Correctional Centre

Item 14: Notices Of Motion

Page 1178

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . Item 14, notices of motion. Item 15, notices of motion for first reading of bills. Item 16, motions. The honourable Member for Frame Lake , Mr. Dent .

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Motion 14-14(5): Review Of The Operation And Accountabilities Of The Committee Structure And System (carried)

Item 16: Motions

Page 1178

Charles Dent

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker,

WHEREAS

Section 44 of the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act and the Rules provide for the establishment of Standing and Special Committees to aid and advise the Legislative Assembly as they consider necessary;

AND

WHEREAS the committee system in any democratic structure is an essential process in holding the executive branch of government accountable;

AND

WHEREAS the committee system is necessary to facilitate the business of the House in a timely manner;

AND

WHEREAS the committee system has to take into account reporting relationships with the Executive Council;

AND

WHEREAS the committee system must provide access by the public to its deliberations and reviews;

AND

WHEREAS the committee system must be efficient and effective;

AND

WHEREAS the current committee structure has a relatively long history in the Northwest Territories and continues to evolve;

AND

WHEREAS it is important that the current committee system continue to ensure accountability of the actions of government and also be accountable for their actions;

AND

WHEREAS the current committee system should be reviewed to ensure that it is meeting the needs of the Legislative Assembly;

NOW THEREFORE I MOVE, seconded by the honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake , that the Standing Committee on Rules and Procedures undertake a review of the operation and accountabilities of the committee structure and system;

AND FURTHER that the Standing Committee provide a report to the Legislative Assembly no later than June 30, 2003.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Motion 14-14(5): Review Of The Operation And Accountabilities Of The Committee Structure And System (carried)

Item 16: Motions

Page 1178

The Speaker

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Dent . We have a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour, please signify. Thank you. All those opposed? Thank you. The motion is carried. Item 16, motions. Item 17, first reading of bills. Item 18, second reading of bills. Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters; Tabled Document 35-14(5), Bill 1 , Bill 22 , Bill 26 , Committee Report 10-14(5) and Committee Report 11-14(5), with Mr. Krutko in the chair.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1178

The Chair

David Krutko

I would like to call committee of the whole to order. We have several items to deal with; Tabled Document 35-14(5), Bill 1 , Bill 22 , Bill 26 , Committee Report 10-14(5) and Committee Report 11-14(5). What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1178

Charles Dent

Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, I would like to recommend the committee consider first of all Committee Report 11-14(5). Should we conclude that matter, that we then turn to Bill 26 , then followed by Bill 1 and Committee Report 10, should we get that far. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1178

The Chair

David Krutko

Does the committee agree?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1178

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1178

The Chair

David Krutko

We will take a short adjournment and we will begin with Committee Report 11-14(5).

-- Break

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1178

The Chair

David Krutko

I would like to call the committee of the whole back to order. We will deal with Committee Report 11-14(5). At this time I would like to ask the chair of the committee for general comments. Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1178

Charles Dent

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, after everybody has had a chance to make general comments we will then be proposing the committee's recommendations in the form of motions.

Mr. Chairman, I do have some general comments on a personal basis on the report before us. Mr. Chairman, as politicians we all have heard, especially in the North, about the fiduciary responsibility of the federal government to aboriginal peoples. That speaks to a trust relationship.

Mr. Chairman, in this setting we too all have a fiduciary responsibility to the public, our constituents. We have a trust relationship with the public, that, Mr. Chairman, extends particularly to the management of public funds.

Mr. Chairman, the public is tired of hearing about politicians who award their friends with lucrative contracts. To most people, that is what this situation looks like. Mr. Chairman, the Auditor General looked at a number of termination contracts. None had the out-of-ordinary terms that are found in contracts like the termination contract for Ms. Sorensen. Mr. Chairman, even Mr. Bayly's contract is significantly different. In fact it is not significantly different from what would be standard government policy or what was set out in the terms of his employment contract.

What we have heard, Mr. Chairman, is that the Premier directed that these lucrative provisions be put in. We know that he signed off on them. Mr. Chairman, interestingly enough on March 11th, Liz Snider, the secretary to Cabinet told this House that she could not sign off on Sorensen's contract because it was outside her authority, but she could and did sign off on Bayly's which was much closer to the terms of the employment contract which had been entered into less than two years earlier.

Mr. Chairman, we are now starting to hear in this House about fiscal difficulty. We are short of nurses and health care workers. I have not heard of any new money to attract those. We do not have enough money to undertake new initiatives, important new initiatives. We have heard a lot of talk about the social agenda but we have not seen any new money to implement the recommendations found in the social agenda. Yet we had an extra quarter of a million dollars to pay for termination payouts for the Premier 's advisor.

I think this is also particularly galling in light of the performance bonuses. We are talking about two employees who are on their way out as a result of their inappropriate actions. In fact there were letters of reprimand on file and yet we are told that the Premier directed that they receive maximum performance pay. Mr. Chairman, to me that is not acceptable.

We are stewards of the public purse in government. We are leaders. We must set policy and once we set policy and practice, we have to, ourselves, set the standard by adhering to those practices and policies. I find it very interesting that in almost every other circumstance, and every other circumstance the Auditor General looked at, the terms and the policy appear to have been followed but this time they were not.

Mr. Chairman, this is the sort of event that causes citizens to lose respect for all politicians. I think it has to stop and it must not happen again. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1179

The Chair

David Krutko

General comments. Mr. Braden .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1179

Bill Braden

Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am one of two members of the committee who filed minority reports. I would appreciate the indulgence of committee to read that into the record and offer some comment.

Mr. Chairman, I wish to indicate my support for the Accountability and Oversight Committee's recommendation that the Legislative Assembly accept the report of the Auditor General. I believe that Sheila Fraser, Auditor General of Canada, and her staff did a thorough and a professional job of completing the mandate given her by this Assembly last March.

I was, like many others, dismayed with the number of unjustified variances in the compensation packages. I was equally dismayed with the Premier 's wholly inappropriate involvement in the event.

I will not dwell on that, Mr. Chairman. The evidence in the body of the Auditor General's report are quite adequate and I am sure that my colleagues will also address their concerns on this issue.

I have filed a minority report, Mr. Chairman, because I want to indicate my disapproval of the committee's second recommendation and that is that Mr. Kakfwi resign as the Premier . I believe that his departure, as much as it might be warranted by his involvement in the termination fracas, would do the Northwest Territories more harm than good on much broader and more consequential issues at this time.

Mr. Chairman, agendas relating to devolution, pipeline and diamond development, provincial and external relations and self-government have advanced considerably through his leadership. We have not obtained many of the goals that we had hoped for when we sat on this in this Assembly. We are not there yet. But if we were to look at these areas we would see where indeed there is progress. We have built relationships, we have agendas and plans in front of us and believe that the Premier 's involvement was key. I want to see him stay in there.

This is a difficult compromise for me to make at this relatively late point in our four-year mandate as the 14th Legislative Assembly. Mr. Chairman, I have asked what I believe really is a crucial question, if not the crucial question, that should always be before us, what will our situation be as the Northwest Territories when our mandate ends in October 2003, one year from now. I believe that it will be no better and may well be even less certain with a replacement leader.

Mr. Chairman, we have all been tested with these events, over almost a year now. It is part of the job that I am really attracted to, it is a part of the job that I fear the most when these ethical and moral issues come before me and really cause me to have to stretch what I believe is right and test it against what really should be done as opposed to what I may feel is the right thing to do.

In this debate I want to say that I have listened to and respect the views of my colleagues. I welcome the debate that we are going to have on this motion. I welcome the outcome, whatever it is going to be, that is seeing everyone have a chance to speak and have a chance to put their decision on record in public is at least that first level of accountability. Let's engage. Thank you, colleagues and thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1179

The Chair

David Krutko

General comments. Mr. Bell .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1179

Brendan Bell

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Also, obviously Mr. Chairman I support the committee's report and recommendations. I think that after seeing this report of the Auditor General the things that I felt had probably happened were confirmed. I will admit I was not surprised. We had a lot of indication of much of this behind closed doors yet we were unable to get the answers and responses to any of these questions in public because of the government's insistence and assertion that there were privacy issues that would come to bear here, therefore we needed to go to the Auditor General and uncover this and bring these issues forward so that they could see the light of day.

I think that the Auditor General in stating that further, "We found no justification for paying the significantly higher termination payments and benefits." I think that that is the issue that much of the public is concerned about. I have had people call me and say, "How can you arrange a termination payout and contract for one individual that does not conform to their employment contract?" It is unprecedented. This government has not done it before; paid huge amounts of money over and above what was warranted in the contract and then said to me "Surely to God some laws were broken."

I think that is the really concerning thing here, Mr. Chairman. No laws were broken. There is so much power concentrated in the office of our Premier that they have the ability to crumple up existing contracts and rewrite them. They only have to be willing to sign them. It is a huge responsibility, the job of Premier and Mr. Chairman, certainly not something that we take lightly. We have to put a great deal of faith and trust in that individual that they will use that power and that authority wisely.

I think the Auditor General has clearly shown us that this was not a prudent use of funds and it was only allowed to happen because it could, Mr. Chairman, not because it was justified.

I think the more we go through this and the more we dissect it, we realize that so much of it is about bad decisions everywhere. Were the bad decisions made by staff, or were they made by the Premier ? Did the Premier receive bad advice on a number of occasions? I have no reason to doubt that. I continue to see what I believe to be bad advice coming forward to our government in dealing with this situation even now.

This agenda of deflecting the real issue and trying to refute and counter anything that the Auditor General has found and discovered in my mind makes no sense, and is exactly the political opposite of what we should be doing.

Mr. Chairman, if you look at the issue of anticipated liability, our government says we had to pay a whack of money over and above what was entitled in a contract because we felt that the former chief of staff might be able to sue us for wrongful dismissal. For some reason, we were not concerned about Mr. Bayly's ability to do that, just Ms. Sorensen's. This, Mr. Chairman, is despite the fact that we know the position was at-pleasure. The Auditor General refers to that as well, when she says "At-pleasure appointments are positions that may be terminated by the employer at any time, with or without cause," Mr.

Chairman. Despite that, we saw fit to pay, in this one instance, a lot of money over and above what was entitled to that individual in the contract. Furthermore, we had no legal representation, nobody looking out for the public's best interests in these negotiations. It makes you wonder if our government thought that Ms. Sorensen's lawyer, who obviously did a very good job, was also looking out for the public interest. I think we can clearly see that there is no way to reconcile those two interests. If that is indeed what our government thought, it is embarrassing, Mr. Chairman.

If we look at the issue of performance pay, we know from listening to the Auditor General's staff yesterday that the Premier provided the direction to Ms. Snider to pay maximum performance pay to both Mr. Bayly and Ms. Sorensen, despite the fact that they had letters of reprimand on file. When we asked for clarification, the Auditor General's indication was that he was told that they had done a great job, but there were no specifics as to the objectives they had met or anything like this, no discussion of the criteria they had met in order to warrant, and this is important, maximum performance pay, Mr. Chairman.

I think the message that sends to the public of the Northwest Territories, and indeed all public servants, is certainly the wrong one. Clearly we do not consider criteria, never mind documentation. There is no way it could have ever been even considered, Mr. Chairman, if we are going to indicate that these two individuals deserved maximum performance pay.

So the fact that the termination contract was absolutely not linked to the employment contract in the former chief of staff's situation, is unprecedented. We have not seen this before in t