Debates of Feb. 2nd, 1998

This is page numbers 471 - 504 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was chairman .

Topics

Members Present

Item 1: Prayer

Collective Bargaining Position And Pay Equity Proposal

Canadian Council Of Ministers Of The Environment Meeting

White Cane Week

Apprenticeship Week: February 2-6, 1998

Timber Permit Application

Unmarked Graves In Southern Canada

Comments Made On Behalf Of Constituents

Passing Of Lucy Francis

Breast Cancer Screening Program

Legislative Assembly Curling Funspiel

Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Capital Funding Allocations

Public/private Partnerships Initiative

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Relocation Of Grave Sites

Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Breast Cancer Screening Programs

Pay Equity Negotiations

Pay Equity Negotiations

Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Arrangement

Funding For Nunavut Infrastructure

Potential Criticism Of Public/private Partnerships Initiative

Funding For Inuvik And Iqaluit Hospitals

Rationalization Of Yellowknife Office Space

Item 7: Written Questions

Written Question 5-13(5): Operating Guidelines For Senior Management Personnel

Tabled Document 29-13(5): Public Utilities Board Of The Northwest Territories - 1997 Annual Report

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 20: Report Of The Committee Of The Whole

Item 22: Orders Of The Day

Members Present

Honourable Jim Antoine , Honourable Goo Arlooktoo , Mr. Barnabas , Honourable Charles Dent , Mr. Enuaraq , Mr. Erasmus , Mr. Evaloarjuk , Honourable Sam Gargan, Mrs. Groenewegen , Mr. Henry , Honourable Stephen Kakfwi , Mr. Krutko , Mr. Miltenberger , Honourable Don Morin , Honourable Kelvin Ng , Mr. Ningark , Mr. O'Brien , Mr. Ootes , Mr. Picco , Mr. Rabesca , Mr. Roland , Mr. Steen , Honourable Manitok Thompson , Honourable John Todd .

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Oh, God, may your spirit and guidance be in us as we work for the benefit of all our people, for peace and justice in our land and for the constant recognition of the dignity and aspirations of those whom we serve. Amen.

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 471

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Ms. Thompson . Good afternoon. Orders of the day. Mrs. Groenewegen , point of order.

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 471

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise today on a point of order. In my reply to the Budget Address on Friday I quoted from Hansard a comment made by the Premier in response to questions being raised about the health care situation in the Keewatin. Mr. Speaker, I inadvertently neglected to report that the Premier in a comment returning to the same subject as a result of being questioned about his first comment on the next day and I quote, "what I meant to say is that I believe the Minister has the health issue in the Keewatin under control." I do apologize Mr. Speaker, to the honourable Premier for failing to mention the subsequent clarification of his comments. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 471

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen . I appreciate the comments for correction, but it is still not a point of order. Orders of the day. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Todd .

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Minister's Statement 34-13(5): Collective Bargaining Position And Pay Equity Proposal

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 471

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Mr. Speaker, in the 1998 Budget Address I presented to this House on January 22nd, I stated that our net financial position could be impacted by the results of the current negotiations with the Union of Northern Workers regarding pay equity.

At the time, mediation talks on pay equity were underway and collective bargaining had not yet commenced. Therefore, it was inappropriate for me to elaborate on the government's position on this issue.

Since the Budget Address, I have been asked many times by Members what the impact pay equity and the current negotiations with the Union of Northern Workers may have on our budget.

Members stated this information is a key part of our deliberations on the 1998-99 budget. Members and others have expressed concern that programs and services essential to the well-being of the people may have to be reduced to pay more money to resolve the pay equity issues.

Mr. Speaker, mediation talks on pay equity have ended, and this morning at the commencement of collective bargaining our negotiators briefed the UNW on our position.

The budget this government has set for the resolution of this issue and for current negotiations is $ 40 million.

This represents a global budget for dealing with working conditions, salary increases, retroactive provisions for pay equity and a new job evaluation system for the UNW, as well as non-unionized employee groups.

Mr. Speaker, after 10 long years, this government is committed to resolving the issue of pay equity, in order to set the stage for implementation of a bias-free job evaluation system, and a fiscally solid start for the two new governments.

Our priority - as well as our challenge - is to arrive at a solution that protects jobs, ensures service levels are maintained and keeps the current fiscal course as a basis for growth and prosperity.

As a Legislature, we must work together to ensure we achieve that objective. We want to and must work in partnership with the union for a made-in-the-north solution for northerners. Waiting for a tribunal to decide for us compromises our common efforts. The pay equity proposal the government is putting forward is based on an extensive review by the Hay Group, a nationally respected organization in the area of job evaluation.

The Hay Job Evaluation System provides the framework to ensure men and women are paid on the basis of equal pay for work of equal value. To that end, the bias-free approach to job evaluation assesses existing jobs on know how, problem- solving, accountability and working conditions. Using this system ensures there is a common reference for both the GNWT and the UNW to reach a financial settlement on retroactivity which achieves pay equity.

Mr. Speaker, $40 million is all this government, and hence the people of the Northwest Territories, can afford to re-allocate without causing severe service disruption and further downsizing. The GNWT is open to negotiating how this money is applied to the various issues at negotiations.

We believe this offer to be reasonable, in that it represents three percent of overall government spending and 10 percent of the current annual costs of the public service.

I sincerely hope the UNW will consult with and present a negotiated settlement to its members that reflects and supports the efforts of all government employees, and the people of the Northwest Territories, in their collective efforts to date to eliminate the deficit.

This is a unique opportunity to settle other outstanding labour-related issues and build a partnership to protect jobs and create a working environment in the public service that can and will result in enhanced services to the people of the Northwest Territories after years of restraint.

Mr. Speaker, let me say once again, this government is committed to resolving the issue of pay equity. It is the right thing to do. We have an obligation to our employees and to the people of the north to work with the union to resolve this issue.

We now have a positive and workable proposal on the table to do just that.

The Members of this House have worked hard to date to balance our budget and work to eliminate our deficit. We must now face this current challenge with the same spirit and commitment to the future of the north, and at the same time get money into the hands of northerners. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Minister's Statement 34-13(5): Collective Bargaining Position And Pay Equity Proposal

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 472

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Ministers' statements. Mr. Kakfwi .

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Minister's Statement 35-13(5): Canadian Council Of Ministers Of The Environment Meeting

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 472

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I recently attended a meeting of the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment in Saint John's, Newfoundland. As a result of this meeting, an accord aimed at improving cooperation and increasing environmental protection across Canada was ratified.

This accord, Mr. Speaker, envisions governments working in cooperation to achieve the highest level of environmental quality possible. Under the accord, each government will retain its current legislative authority but will come together as partners to achieve the highest level of environmental quality for all Canadians. Each government will be responsible for specific actions and is required to report publicly on its results.

In addition to the accord, a number of sub-agreements dealing with environmental assessment, inspection activities and Canada-wide standards on air, water and soil quality were also signed.

The council has directed officials to develop further sub-agreements in the areas of enforcement, monitoring, reporting, research and development and environmental emergencies. It is important to note, Mr. Speaker, that officials have also been asked to develop strategies which will ensure involvement from all stakeholders, including present and future land claimant groups.

The Northwest Territories covers approximately one-third of Canada's land mass, and the majority of our residents have a deep respect for and dependency on the land. The north is often referred to as the last frontier with many unique species of plant and animal life. I am confident, Mr. Speaker, that this cooperative accord will strengthen and enhance environmental management in the north, helping to ensure that land, water and air quality are maintained.

I am also pleased to announce, Mr. Speaker, that the NWT has assumed a term of chairmanship for the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment. The first meeting in the north will be in June. I look forward to introducing my fellow Environment Ministers to the NWT and our unique environmental challenges. Mahsi cho.

--Applause

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Minister's Statement 35-13(5): Canadian Council Of Ministers Of The Environment Meeting

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 472

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi . Ministers' statements. Mr. Ng .

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Minister's Statement 36-13(5): White Cane Week

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 472

Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to recognize that February 1st to 7th is White Cane Week.

Visually impaired individuals often play an important role in our communities and our lives. Our supportive and positive attitude towards blindness and visual impairment in the Northwest Territories will help them continue to do so.

We must encourage blind and sighted northerners to work closely together - in the workplace, in our communities - to discover ways it can be possible for the visually impaired to do the things they wish to do. The CNIB has done a tremendous amount in this area and I would like to recognized and commend them for their work.

Mr. Speaker, I urge each Member of this House to take a moment and think about the visually impaired and to reaffirm our personal commitment to support and encourage northerners facing special challenges. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Minister's Statement 36-13(5): White Cane Week

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 473

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ministers' statements. Mr. Dent .

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Minister's Statement 37-13(5): Apprenticeship Week: February 2-6, 1998

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 473

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Good afternoon. While we often speak in this House on the issues relating to the northern employment, I would like to take a moment today to recognize a group of individuals that make up an important part of our workforce, that is, the skilled trades people who help build our communities and help drive our economy.

Journey persons and apprentices can be found in every community and constituency in the Northwest Territories, and their work can be seen and appreciated in our hospitals, schools, airports, community halls and offices.

With thousands of men and women currently working in the trades, it is truly a northern success story of which we should all feel some pride.

To recognize the ongoing success of the Northwest Territories Apprenticeship Program, I am pleased to announce that today marks the beginning of the first ever Apprenticeship Week in the Northwest Territories.

As part of that, the Department of Education, Culture and Employment will recognize these dedicated individuals in many ways, including open houses scheduled at many regional career centres where regional honour rolls will be on display and a contest sponsored by BHP, for high school students across the territories.

During this week, we should note that much of the credit for the ongoing, and indeed, growing success of the Apprenticeship Program is due to the unique working relationship between the employers and apprentices.

Employers are responsible for 80 percent of all the training an apprentice receives; and therefore, organizations and companies play an important role, not only in helping these people pursue productive careers but in allowing them to earn a salary while doing so.

So, in addition to recognizing the trades people themselves, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all those employers, past and present, who have contributed to the success of the Apprenticeship Program, and encourage them to continue to invest in and support the development of these skilled workers. The demand for skilled trades people will only increase as we all work together to build a stronger economy in the north.

I am pleased we are now marking this week to increase awareness and appreciation of apprentices and as a result, perhaps open the doors for more young people to make productive career choices. Thank you.

--Applause

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Minister's Statement 37-13(5): Apprenticeship Week: February 2-6, 1998

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 473

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Dent . Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. Ms. Groenewegen .

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Member's Statement 129-13(5): Timber Permit Application

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 473

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak today to the highly publicized issue of timber permits for a company in my riding. Pattersons has been in the sawmill business for over 30 years. As well as employing many people in the area over the years, they employ three generations of their own family. It has become increasingly difficult for them to identify timber stands in the area because of interest by other parties in the timber business.

While it is my hope that issues regarding the identification of sustainable inventories and boundaries can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction, I also hope that there will continue to be a place for people, such as the Pattersons, who have invested most of their life in the north. I believe that there is a great potential for the lumber industry in the Deh Cho and the South Slave and hopefully, enough timber to satisfy everyone's aspirations to be involved in a sustainable and responsible harvest of this renewable resource.

I would like to thank today, the Minister, the Honourable Stephen Kakfwi for his attention to this industry, for his respect for the environment and his department's professional handling of the concerns expressed by all parties as indicated in a CBC interview with his deputy minister, Joe Handley, this morning and also by his staff, Mr. Bob McLeod, in attendance in the Kakisa today to work through the issues of all concerned parties. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 129-13(5): Timber Permit Application

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 473

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Members' statements. Mr. Enuaraq .

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Member's Statement 130-13(5): Unmarked Graves In Southern Canada

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 473

Tommy Enuaraq

Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. (Translation) I will be speaking in Inuktitut. I have a statement today regarding something that has happened in previous years, some things

that have gone on in the Baffin region during the 1950s and 1960s. During the late '50s and early '60s, a lot of Inuit people were shipped down to southern institutions by boat or ship to Montreal and Toronto to go to sanatoriums for TB treatment.

Mr. Speaker, for those people who went to southern sanatoriums and passed away while they were still in the hospitals, when they did pass away, all they did was mark the graveyards. Some graves were unmarked in the cemeteries. There are a lot of people who were impacted by this situation. There are some constituents of mine that have come to me to ask for assistance to see if they can locate their parents' graves in southern Canada. They have been wanting to locate their graves so they can visit their families.

I am appealing to the government of the Northwest Territories to see if they can assist these people who have concerns regarding unmarked graves. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. (Translation ends)

--Applause.

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Member's Statement 130-13(5): Unmarked Graves In Southern Canada

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Members' statement. Mr. O'Brien .

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Member's Statement 131-13(5): Comments Made On Behalf Of Constituents

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

Kevin O'Brien

Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the health and welfare of my constituents of Arviat and Baker Lake are very important to me. I am their voice. It is my job to speak loud and clear so I can look after their best interests. To be harangued in this House for speaking loudly, for asking tough questions or for telling it the way it is, is simply silly. What is at stake here are important issues like the state of health care in the Keewatin or discussions on the Lahm Ridge Tower and how these deals are reached.

Sometimes my line of questioning may cause some Ministers some discomfort and they may appear to be on the defensive. This is not my intent, Mr. Speaker. I simply want the facts. If they are defensive or evasive, then one must ask why. Without tough questions, there will be no answers as to why things are the way they are. We need checks and balances to ensure our government is above board, honest and fair. Constructive debate helps to enlighten and open up the political process. This is what we call accountability.

If I did not speak up about what I considered third world conditions regarding the Keewatin health care, we would still be continuing in a downward spiral toward an even bigger crisis.

Mr. Speaker, in reference to third world conditions or serious matters, I would refer to the following points: it is when one is down to the last IV bag, when you have an overworked nurse who is exhausted after working 24 hours a day over the Christmas holidays servicing 1,600 people; this is when the chief medical doctor for the region quits in disgust, after blasting the health board for mismanaging their health care system; when the board chair quits and the CEO is fired in the space of one week; and when we suffer from a large or major shortage of nurses and doctors in the Keewatin. Mr.

Speaker, these conditions may be fine for some people, but they are not fine for the people I represent.

I will not sit back and blindly ignore the problems and put my constituents at risk. Mr. Speaker, I do not stand here hoping to see my face in the newspaper or on television. That is for the whim of the editors. I stand here to raise issues that concern the people I represent. It is not me who is in the spotlight. It is rather the issues.

I bring issues forward because the people I represent are concerned and they expect me to speak out. My job as MLA is to get problems fixed, to look after my constituents, to point out injustices, to get answers and action. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 131-13(5): Comments Made On Behalf Of Constituents

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. O'Brien . Members' statements. Mr. Krutko .

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Member's Statement 132-13(5): Passing Of Lucy Francis

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise today to inform the House of the passing of Ms. Lucy Francis of Fort McPherson on Friday, January 30, 1998. Lucy was 99 years old. Lucy was born to the late Chief Julius and Maggie Salu on January 1, 1899 on the Blackstone River Valley in the Yukon Territory.

A few may know Chief Julius was the last hereditary chief of the Tetlit Gwich'in and the first elected chief. He was also the signatory to Treaty 11 and a well respected elder and leader.

Lucy married Brian Frances in the early 1920s and they had nine children, six of whom are still alive today. They also looked after Catherine Semple of Aklavik for many years. Lucy and her husband raised their family in a traditional way and lived for many years at Tl'oondih which is now the site of the Tl'oondih Healing Camp. Lucy has 24 grandchildren, 43 great grandchildren and 3 great-great grandchildren. The funeral is scheduled for Thursday in Fort McPherson. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Member's Statement 132-13(5): Passing Of Lucy Francis

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . Members' statements. Mr. Ootes .

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Member's Statement 133-13(5): Breast Cancer Screening Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 474

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I was very pleased last week to hear the Health Minister say in this House he considers a breast cancer screening program to be a core health service for northern women.

As the Members of this House know, it has long been my position that the Department of Health and Social Services should be aggressively pursuing a breast screening program. An important component of this is a mobile mammography unit. While I appreciate the Health Minister 's change of opinion on this very important issue, I still feel too many issues with pan-territorial concerns are being handed over the regional health boards. I am not alone in this opinion.

In a recent newspaper article, both the president of the NWT Medical Association, Dr. David Butcher, and the president of the NWT Registered Nurses Association, Miss Nell Vrolyk, agreed the issue of screening for breast cancer was too important to be left up to the regional health boards. Their voices are added to those for the NWT Working Group on Breast Cancer Screening, who identified a need for a full pan-territorial screening program in their report issued last month.

Doctors and nurses agreed that if breast screening is left up to regional health boards, there will be no standardization of service, which will leave northern women vulnerable or well served, depending upon where in the north they lived. This is simply not acceptable, Mr. Speaker. Breast cancer screening is part of a basic national health package, yet the majority of NWT residents are unable to access it.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 133-13(5): Breast Cancer Screening Program

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 475

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Ootes . Members' statements. Mr. Erasmus .

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Member's Statement 134-13(5): Legislative Assembly Curling Funspiel

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 475

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like today to speak of a momentous occasion. Last weekend when we had the annual Legislative's curling bonspiel, it was very well attended by Members and staff. We did have a few awards that were given out, Mr. Speaker. This year we gave out little pigs to those who did not make it over the hog line and the person who got the most pigs for hogging was Nicole Camphaug. Honourable mention has to go to Floyd Roland who got the most last year and did not get any this year, so he really improved. The most enthusiastic curler, Mr.

Speaker, was Sheila MacPherson and I must add, she must have been very enthusiastic because it usually goes to the most enthusiastic team, but she won it by herself. The best wipe-outs was Sarah Kay. I understand she slipped twice. She wiped out twice in one game but they were not the only casualties, Mr. Speaker. I already had to go for a massage and probably will have to go see my chiropractor as well. Mr. Speaker, the sharp shooter of the entire occasion was Mr. Todd , who I understand drew to the button.

--Applause

The bad hair curler was Mr. Picco , who had to comb his hair continuously for some reason. The loudest, Mr. Speaker, I do not know how they came to this, they found the person, Mr. Hamilton as the loudest.

We also had winners of three different events. In the C event, again, Mr. Hamilton came out on top. His team won the C event. On his team were Ed Picco, Nicole Camphaug and Dorothy Zoe.

The winner of the B event was Brian Armstrong's team. On his team was Rob Moore, Sarah Kay and Ronna Bremer.

The winner in the A event, Mr. Speaker, and won this trophy here, was the Roy Erasmus ' team.

--Laughter

We had David Krutko , Mr. Ng and Sheila MacPherson curling on our team. I would really like to thank the organizers, Vera Raschke, Cheryl Voytilla, Ronna Bremer and Brian Armstrong. They did a wonderful job.

Finally, but not lastly of course, I would like to thank Mr. Seamus Henry who, very kindly once again, paid for the ice time and was our sponsor. Thank you very much.

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Member's Statement 134-13(5): Legislative Assembly Curling Funspiel

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 475

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Members' statements. Mr. Picco .

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Member's Statement 135-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 475

Edward Picco

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Northwest Territories leads the country in incarceration rates for crime. It would seem sometimes this government is predisposed to incarceration but not to rehabilitation of our inmates.

Mr. Speaker, in questioning in this House by this Member, it was learned that our correctional facilities are overcrowded, which could result in serious problems. However, overcrowding and a seemingly lack of measures taken to rehabilitate our inmates is my concern here today.

I have received information that worries me. When an individual is continually incarcerated, what measures are taken to diagnose, then act on, the diagnosis by the Department of Justice?

Does the department contact the referral agencies or does the department revisit the client and their assessment? Recently, a constituent receiving treatment here in Yellowknife had been turned down for further treatment and help at the addiction offices because of seemingly inappropriate reasons. Does the Department of Justice review the rehabilitation programs for effectiveness and if they are even applicable? Many of the more series crimes committed by Nunavut residents mean they are incarcerated here at YCC in Yellowknife.

Does the department have a plan after 1999, how we will deal with the 40 or so Nunavut residents incarcerated here? Should we be planning a new correctional centre with federal help?

Mr. Speaker, the whole area surrounding incarceration, rehabilitation and locations of same needs to be addressed. Later today I will be asking the Minister for Justice questions on these matters. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Member's Statement 135-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 476

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Members' statements. Mr. Barnabas .

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Member's Statement 136-13(5): Capital Funding Allocations

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 476

Levi Barnabas

High Arctic

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will be speaking in Inuktitut. Mr. Speaker, I would like to talk about funding that is put aside for capital funding with infrastructure going into the communities, when Nunavut comes. This funding is available for constructing buildings in the communities and for water and sewage, roads and other essentials in the community. When this funding is not properly used or when work is put behind or deferred to another time - we are all aware that in the government we often talk about fiscal restraints - my concern is where we could get more funding for these projects?

I will be referring to a question to the Minister of MACA regarding this issue later on today. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. (Translation ends)

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Member's Statement 136-13(5): Capital Funding Allocations

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 476

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Barnabas . Members' statements. Mr. Henry .

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Member's Statement 137-13(5): Public/private Partnerships Initiative

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 476

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, some time ago the Minister of Finance introduced a new budget for the ensuing year. One of the issues of that budget was a new initiative called a P3 initiative. I spoke in favour of that initiative at that time, Mr. Speaker I still support it. I also raised some concerns about the P3 initiative and the concerns that I mainly had was the P3 initiative brought clarity to any programs or initiatives that it took in the way of ventures. I still have those concerns, and I think they are highlighted even more, Mr.

Speaker, with the present controversy both in this House and in the media, regarding the Lahm Ridge Tower lease extension which is normally an everyday practice. I hope the present lease demonstrates to the government how important the issue of clarity will be when we get into these P3 initiatives, and I will be following them with great interest to ensure that clarity exists. I will later on today, be asking questions of the Minister on the P3 initiative. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Member's Statement 137-13(5): Public/private Partnerships Initiative

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 476

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Henry . Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery.

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 476

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to recognize Ms. Maureen Johnson, the regional vice-president for the UNW from Fort Smith.

--Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 476

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr Roland.

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 476

Floyd Roland

Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I would like to recognize two people in the gallery from Inuvik, the mayor, Mr. George Roach. He is also the president of the NWT Association of Municipalities. As well, I would like to recognize Mr. Dave Kaufman, the RVP for the UNW in Inuvik.

--Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 476

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Welcome to the Assembly. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Picco .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 476

Edward Picco

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Good afternoon. I would also like to welcome in the gallery today the RVP from the Baffin region for UNW, Mr. Doug Workman, who is a long time northern educator and also Ms Barbie Lee. I think Barbie here today in the Legislature, is the sister-in-law of Duff Spence, who works here in the Legislative Assembly, and she is also from Iqaluit. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 476

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Welcome to the Assembly. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Item 6, oral questions. Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 476

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions today are for anyone in Cabinet who would like to answer further questions on the extension of the lease and the subsequent sale of the Lahm Ridge Tower. I will leave it open. Mr. Speaker, did the deputy minister...

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Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 476

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mrs. Groenewegen , could you direct your question to the appropriate Minister, please.

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Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 476

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct my questions to the Premier , as Mr. Antoine is the newly appointed Minister responsible for this department. Did the deputy minister of Public Works and Services receive any guidance, input or direction from Cabinet or any Minister of this government relative to the signing of the extension of the leases on the Lahm Ridge Tower? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Premier .

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Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Antoine , as the Minister of DPW, is well informed on this issue and he can handle the question. Thank you.

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Return To Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Mr. Antoine .

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Return To Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No, there was no direction given to the deputy minister when he was negotiating this lease extension. Thank you.

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Return To Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Supplementary To Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Since we already know, through documents made available to the public by this government who the lease is with, how many years it is for, the negotiated conditions of the extension, the cost of the space, the department that it accommodates, will the Minister agree to table in this House, not a standard lease form but the actual lease including the extension addendum? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Mr Antoine.

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Further Return To Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I do not think I could table their agreement. I think it is an agreement between the company and the government. I do not think, at this point in time, I could table such a document. If I do that, I will have to do it for everybody else that has a contract with the government. I do not think I could do that. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Supplementary To Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My third question is, several items related to the renovations and costs were listed as negotiated conditions of the lease extension. Was it for public clarification, Mr. Speaker, also a condition of the lease extensions that the property be sold to the newly incorporated northern-owned company owned by Mr. Mrdjenovich and Mr. Bailey? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Mr. Antoine .

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Further Return To Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

I do not know, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the items that were listed in the chronology of events in regard to the specific improvements in the lease of a better price in renovating the air circulation system and so forth. The ventilation system was part of the lease negotiations that we thought would be good to put into the chronology of events, to try to be as transparent as we can on the types of general discussions and negotiations that took place that makes this lease extension favourable for us and also cost us less than what we had originally and saves money for the government in the long run. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Supplementary To Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not sure I understood the answer to the question but I will proceed. If this was not a condition of the extension to sell the property to Mr. Mrdjenovich and Mr. Bailey, why was a lease extension registered on the same day, almost simultaneously, with the new mortgage and the assignment of the lease to the numbered company owned by Mr. Mrdjenovich and Mr. Bailey, even though the chronology shows that the new owners did not take ownership and receipt of the rent payment until November 1, 1997? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Antoine .

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Further Return To Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am told that during the negotiations of finalizing the lease extension, as well as the assignment from the previous owners to the new owners, that they estimated the turnover time to be October 1st.. However, because of some internal arrangements that were not finalized, the actual turnover did happen on November 1st. There were some internal problems that were not taken into consideration at the time. The actual first payment to the new company was November 1st and that is when it was finalized. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Question 167-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Agreement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Mr. Evaloarjuk .

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Question 168-13(5): Relocation Of Grave Sites

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

Mark Evaloarjuk

Amittuq

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs . Last year, March 5, 1997, I asked a question to the Minister regarding the 30 graves that were relocated to another area. The Minister agreed to work with the community on how this would be paid for. I would like to get an update as to what has happened with this item since I last talked to her . Thank you. (Translation ends)

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Question 168-13(5): Relocation Of Grave Sites

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 477

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Minister responsible for Municipal and Community Affairs , Ms. Thompson .

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Return To Question 168-13(5): Relocation Of Grave Sites

Question 168-13(5): Relocation Of Grave Sites

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

Manitok Thompson

Aivilik

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to apologize to the MLA for not getting back to him right away, but I will talk to my officials and get an update and get back to him later on today. Thank you. (Translation ends)

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Return To Question 168-13(5): Relocation Of Grave Sites

Question 168-13(5): Relocation Of Grave Sites

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Mr. Enuaraq .

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Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

Tommy Enuaraq

Baffin Central

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Health and Social Services , Mr. Ng . Mr. Speaker, as I was saying earlier today, during my Member's statement, in the 1950s there were patients that were brought to the south for medical attention. Some of the patients graves have not been brought back or identified. Has the Minister been informed about this issue? Thank you. (Translation ends)

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Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

The Minister of Health and Social Services , Mr. Ng .

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Return To Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am aware that NWT residents were brought down south, in certain circumstances, for their medical treatment up until 1988, prior to this government having responsibility for health and social services. There were unfortunate cases of individuals passing away while they were down south and not being brought back to the Northwest Territories. I am aware of the situations such as that, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

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Return To Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Enuaraq .

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Supplementary To Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

Tommy Enuaraq

Baffin Central

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I also thank the Minister for his response. I have a further question as to what his department has done, or what does his department plan to do regarding the bodies that have been buried in the cemeteries that remain down south? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. (Translation ends)

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Supplementary To Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Ng .

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Further Return To Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have done very little in respect to the issue the honourable Member raised in his opening statement about identifying where individuals may be except, I can say, on a case-by-case basis. If individuals are needing assistance to try to locate a deceased relative, then we will try to identify, certainly where the service was provided, where their medical treatment was provided and try to assist them. There has not been a lot of requests in those kinds of circumstances, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Enuaraq .

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Supplementary To Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

Tommy Enuaraq

Baffin Central

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Also, my thanks to the Minister for his response. I have a further question regarding the relatives and the families of the deceased. The members of the families who may be interested in visiting the cemeteries, would the department provide transportation for the families to visit? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. (Translation ends).

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Supplementary To Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Ng .

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Further Return To Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is not within any programs of the Department of Health and Social Services which we currently fund through the boards, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

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Question 169-13(5): Location Of Tb Victims' Remains

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Mr. Picco .

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Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

Edward Picco

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as for my Member's statement, I would like to follow up on some questions for the Minister of Justice around the area of corrections. Can the Minister inform this House when entering a correctional facility for the first, second or third time or whatever period, are the inmates counselled and given direction and help with rehabilitation programs? Thank you.

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Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. The Minister of Justice , Mr. Arlooktoo .

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Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

Goo Arlooktoo

Baffin South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am informed that the process is that once an offender is admitted to the correctional centre their case is reviewed by a case worker, they are interviewed and assessed and at that point in time it is determined whether a person is eligible or willing to take a program of any sort. Thank you.

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Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 478

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Picco .

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Supplementary To Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

Edward Picco

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, does the department have trained clinical psychologists at the correctional facilities to provide ongoing evaluation, referral and rehabilitation help for the inmates?

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Supplementary To Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Arlooktoo .

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Further Return To Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

Goo Arlooktoo

Baffin South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Department of Justice has three positions for clinical psychologists. There is one for the Baffin Correctional Centre, one for the Yellowknife Correctional Centre and one for the southern Mackenzie.

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Further Return To Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Picco .

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Supplementary To Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

Edward Picco

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, are those clinical psychologist positions staffed at the present time? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Arlooktoo .

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Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

Goo Arlooktoo

Baffin South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. They were all staffed until the end of last week. The clinical psychologist hired for the Baffin Correctional Centre was relieved of her duties last Friday.

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Further Return To Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Final supplementary, Mr. Picco .

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Supplementary To Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

Edward Picco

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, who decides if an inmate is allowed or can continue treatment for addiction or psychological problems? Who decides who gets the treatment or who does not get the treatment? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Arlooktoo .

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Further Return To Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

Goo Arlooktoo

Baffin South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are several possibilities. One is after the assessment, an offender must show willingness to take a program and have the concurrence of the case worker. Once that is done, the case worker will go out, either outside the facility to try to get the inmate into a program or get the inmate to take an in-house program, counselling or otherwise. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Question 170-13(5): Inmate Rehabilitation Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Mr. Ootes

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Question 171-13(5): Breast Cancer Screening Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I spoke earlier about the Minister's statement last week on breast cancer and I wonder if the Minister could answer several questions in that regard for me. He stated that they were doing extensive work and that we are addressing this through a variety of prevention initiatives. I wonder if he could tell us, what are the prevention initiatives that the department is doing? Thank you.

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Question 171-13(5): Breast Cancer Screening Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

The Minister of Health and Social Services , Mr. Ng .

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Question 171-13(5): Breast Cancer Screening Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I do not have the full details on hand. After I had made that statement, I took it out, so I will have to take that question as notice. Thank you.

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Question 171-13(5): Breast Cancer Screening Programs

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. The question is taken as notice. Oral questions. Mr. Miltenberger .

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Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Finance and it is regarding pay equity. Last week in this House, the issue came up and there was some discussion in a general way. The Minister characterized that the difference between the government's position and the union's is something similar to the Grand Canyon. Today the Minister has put a figure on the table for the government, but there is still no clear sense of scale.

Can the Minister indicate, in their opinion or in the opinion of the government, what is the sense of scale, what is the union position that would characterize it as the Grand Canyon to give people a sense of scale as they look at this critical issue?

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Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

The Minister of Finance , Mr. Todd .

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Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Based on the union's position in 1992-93 and our costing of it, it is somewhere in the range of $175 to $200 million.

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Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Miltenberger .

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Supplementary To Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 479

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister quickly summarize what could possibly contribute to such a Grand Canyon-esque gulf between the government's position and the union's? Just to give us once again, a better sense of scale and to the public. Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 480

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Todd .

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Further Return To Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 480

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Well, the government has been using the Hay Plan form of evaluation for the last 20 years. The union is using the old JEPS and WILLIS system. Our position is, we believe it is dependable. Hay and Associates have been working hard with us to determine the new job evaluation, the cost attached to it and have determined that our position is about $25 million in retroactivity, $9 million on ongoing. As I have said, my understanding of it is based on the UNW's position in 1992-93 and their assumption of using another way of calculating pay equity, the dollar value, and I stand to be corrected, is somewhere in the region of $175 to $200 million. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 480

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Miltenberger .

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Supplementary To Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 480

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister elaborate on one of his comments in his prepared statement where he has made the point that one of the goals is to get money into the hands of northerners. Can the Minister give some examples of what that could possibly mean? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 480

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Todd .

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Further Return To Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 480

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In a briefing earlier today to the press, we had indicated some categories of jobs based on our analysis and our best judgment. I believe, for example, a nurse who had been in the system, say ten years, which is somewhere around $18,000 say effective April 1, 1998, counts for retroactivity. I think a data entry clerk would be $6,000 plus. It is significant , Mr. Speaker. I would sincerely hope at the end of the day, that we will be able to reach an appropriate compromise, as I have said consistently, this government can afford to pay and that we can sustain. We believe our position is both defendable, is sustainable and is affordable. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 480

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Final supplementary, Mr. Miltenberger .

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Supplementary To Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 480

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister indicate as well what is the next step. The government has gone public. It had a press conference. It has laid the position on the table. Prior to that the union made a fairly pointed press release dismissing the government's offer. Now we have some numbers. What is the plan now for the government in order to try to move this around or along and ensure in fact, that we reach a settlement that is affordable and does not impact on the needy, the poor, the unemployed and the single mothers and such? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 480

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Todd .

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Further Return To Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 480

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Well, for clarity purposes, what we did do today, for those who missed the press conference, we said that we felt the affordability issue with this government, with some fairly serious looks at our fiscal position, could probably afford an overall $40 million pay equity negotiated settlement. We had indicated in the press conference, $25 million for retroactivity, $9 million for the ongoing costs associated with pay equity, and I think somewhere in the region of $6 million in terms of a framework for negotiating a new collective agreement.

My intent over the next little while, hopefully, is that negotiations will continue between the two parties. I think it is incumbent upon myself, my colleagues to advise the people of the territories, the membership and the community at large, that this is what we think we can fundamentally sustain without any serious downsizing or reduction of services to the public. Ultimately, if we cannot reach an agreement through a negotiated settlement, I would hope that if nothing else that the union and membership would take it to the members through some kind of vote. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 172-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 480

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Mr. Erasmus .

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Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 480

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are also for the Finance Minister in the area of the pay equity issue. First of all, I would like to thank the Minister for putting forward a position and his commitment to try and settle this pay equity issue. The Minister had indicated that they are using the Hay Group to arrive at their position. Could the Minister indicate just who the Hay Group is please?

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Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 480

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

The Minister of Finance , Mr. Todd .

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Return To Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 480

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Hay Group or the Hay Associates are a national and international firm who are known professional experts in the pay equity issues that have unfolded across the country. They are active in a number of provincial jurisdictions. They are also working with business, both small and large. In fact, we have been using the Hay Plan process for the last 20 years in this government and they have worked diligently to try to quantify our belief that what we are putting forward is fair and is affordable. I have the confidence of myself and of my deputy, and as I said, have the credibility across Canada in terms of their professional credentials. Thank you.

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Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Erasmus .

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Supplementary To Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister indicated that several other jurisdictions use their methods. Could the Minister give us some examples of some provinces that perhaps use this?

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Supplementary To Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Todd .

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Further Return To Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Well, as far as I am aware, I think they are very active in Ontario and Manitoba, I believe New Brunswick is certainly one of the Maritime provinces, there may be others. I would be prepared to provide that to my honourable colleague, but I know that they are active in at least three or four provinces in Canada, and of course, both in the small and large private sector. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Erasmus .

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Supplementary To Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yellowknife has been, I would say, the hardest hit with job cuts in the last little while and we know with division looming there will still be more jobs lost. Will this offer, if it is accepted, result in more job losses in the public service?

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Supplementary To Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Todd .

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Further Return To Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think it is important that I be a little cautious in my response. I am fundamentally of the belief that our offer is an affordable one, and one that we can with some serious look at our fiscal framework manage and our offer will not bring about any further downsizing or program cuts to the government. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Final supplementary, Mr. Erasmus .

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Supplementary To Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister had indicated that this government could afford to reallocate without causing severe service disruption and further downsizing with this offer if it is accepted. What types of things, if we had to go further beyond this, can the Minister indicate how it would affect this government?

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Supplementary To Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Todd .

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Further Return To Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think I have been fairly clear and fairly transparent in this whole process. This government cannot afford any other additional expenditures on the pay equity issue at this time, other than the $40 million we have put on the table and even that will be difficult enough to achieve, without any further downsizing or program cuts. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Question 173-13(5): Pay Equity Negotiations

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Mr. O'Brien .

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Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

Kevin O'Brien

Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Division. Mr. Speaker, I posed some questions a while back regarding the layoff of individuals in my community regarding the construction of housing units in Arviat in order to prepare for division and the jobs that are supposed to be transferred to our community. Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding now that the skeleton staff who were left behind are also leaving the job site. My question to the Minister is, at this point in time, there are other sites in Nunavut that have construction projects ongoing, is Arviat the only community that has their staff laid off?

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Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. The Minister responsible for Division, Mr. Todd .

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Return To Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think it is important to point out that this government has no jurisdiction over the infrastructure requirements that are currently built for the Nunavut government. That is an arrangement between the federal government and NTI. However, I did do some investigation because I know it is a concern, an obvious concern to us, my colleague and his constituency. I believe there is, in my understanding in discussions, there are two other projects in Cape Dorset and Spence Bay, I think or Taloyoak. It is important to point out that we have little or no jurisdiction over this issue. Thank you.

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Return To Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. O'Brien .

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Supplementary To Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 481

Kevin O'Brien

Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am sure the Minister realizes how concerned the people are in my communities regarding these layoffs and how important it is that these projects, these housing units and office spaces get finished and completed, so that we can be prepared for 1999.

At this point, who is the contact person? How do we have some input or some contact with the other parties to make sure that we know what is happening, when the construction is going to start again, and if indeed, we are going to be on schedule? The main concern here is, if we do not have the office space and housing units completed, we will not be prepared to house these staff. Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 482

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Two questions. Mr. Todd .

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Further Return To Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 482

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Again, for clarity purposes, it is important that we have no jurisdiction over this and in some ways I wish we had. I will undertake on behalf of my colleague to communicate with Public Works Canada, who have the project management responsibility, and the Nunavut Construction Company and ask them if they are prepared to give us a full detailed briefing as to why these projects have been closed down, when they intend to bring it back on stream and maybe an update on their projected completion on both the housing and the office facilities, not only in Arviat but right across the 11 communities that are designated for the new decentralized government in April 1, 1999. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 482

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Final supplementary, Mr. O'Brien .

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Supplementary To Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 482

Kevin O'Brien

Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, with all do respect to the Minister's reply, this is the same answer I got the last time I brought this question up two months ago. Could the Minister tell this House exactly or at least approximately when we might get a reply as to the situation? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 482

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Todd .

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Further Return To Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 482

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thought I was being fairly straightforward saying it is not within our jurisdiction. I will undertake, I am not obligated to, but I will undertake on behalf of my colleague, to check with Public Works Canada and the Nunavut Construction Company and ask them for a full briefing -- if they are prepared to give it to us -- and an update on when they expect construction to be initiated back in Arviat, Cape Dorset and Pond Inlet. If they can provide me and this government with a revised

schedule as to when the construction will be complete, I will only be too happy to provide that to my honourable colleague in the House. As I have said consistently, I wish I could get the answer myself, but it is not within our jurisdiction. I will do that on his behalf. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Question 174-13(5): Nunavut Government Infrastructure In Arviat

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 482

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Mr. Krutko .

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Question 175-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Arrangement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 482

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Public Works and Services , Honourable Jim Antoine , regarding the Lahm Ridge Tower lease in relation to the $10 million lease which takes effect from December 1, 1995 and expires November 30, 2005. In regard to the circumstances we find ourselves in, especially in Yellowknife where there is over a 100,000 square feet of vacant office space, I find it alarming how someone was able to make such a sweetheart deal.

As we know, the owner made it clear that the government, if they are prepared to exercise an extension option, that he would negotiate terms that would provide some significant cost benefits to this government. It is understood that Public Works knew that the owner was attempting to negotiate the sale of the building at the time. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister is can the Minister explain why the Lahm Ridge Tower lease was renewed by this government at the 1995 rate levels when the office vacancy rate in Yellowknife was low and the rent was high?

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Question 175-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Arrangement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 482

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. The Minister of Public Works and Services , Mr. Antoine .

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Return To Question 175-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Arrangement

Question 175-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Arrangement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 482

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Lahm Ridge Tower lease is not a sweetheart deal. Mr. Speaker, the government holds quite a substantial amount of square footage in Yellowknife with about 441,000 square feet. Since 1995, the beginning of this government, with the amount of amalgamation and downsizing that was occurring in the first two years of this government, we had to put together an office plan. We did not have a real firm hold on exactly how much square footage we needed because just until last spring we were still talking about amalgamating Public Works, Housing and so forth.

That was shelved as well, so starting last year about January, the Department of Public Works started working on and rationalizing office space that is required in Yellowknife once all the downsizing and amalgamation was done. By July, after the two negotiations with all the different deputy ministers, the department had a fairly good look at what was required, what type of long-term lease was required to be held on, what we should do with our existing buildings and what other office spaces that we needed to look at.

By July, it was determined by the departments and deputy ministers that some of the long-term leases will be required even after the office plan had been realized. One of the long-term leases that was desirable at the point in time was the Lahm Ridge Tower, which the Department of Education, Culture and Employment is in and the Department of Transportation. Both departments were satisfied with the building. In timing, the owners of Lahm Ridge Tower Investments contacted our regional superintendent to request a meeting aimed at coming up with an agreement on the extension of their office lease.

The deputy minister then instructed the superintendent that we were in a good bargaining position and we did need Lahm Ridge Tower. Therefore, if you are able to negotiate a reasonable arrangement with the owners, namely reducing the utility costs, dealing with the air ventilation system and making general improvements in the building, if you are able to negotiate these items, then perhaps we could have a deal. The superintendent then met with the owners towards the end of July and were able to come out with a basic deal.

About the beginning of August, August 1st exactly, the superintendent and the owners signed off the proposed extension provisions based on the negotiations. They were able to come out with a better deal than what originally existed. I do not think it is a sweetheart deal. It was done through negotiations and it was around that time that it became clear that the owners wished to obtain the extension in order to make it attractive for a potential buyer. Around that point in time, the superintendent and the deputy ministers were aware of this potential sale and the identity of the potential buyers.

There are a lot of coincidences and a lot work that went into this whole deal. As a result of that, there was an agreement by the deputy ministers to sign a lease extension that was a good business case for the transaction. Based on that, the deputy minister was satisfied that it was a good business deal and, therefore, he agreed to sign the lease. Thank you.

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Return To Question 175-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Arrangement

Question 175-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Arrangement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 483

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko .

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Supplementary To Question 175-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Arrangement

Question 175-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Arrangement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 483

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Anybody that can swing a $10 million lease, has a heck of a deal. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister is regarding the market rent in Yellowknife at the time of the lease, in regard to the occupancy rates in Yellowknife, which was relatively low. It appears that the government could have saved this amount of money by renegotiating the lease or reallocating to another office space. We hear that, presently, the government occupies some 440,000 square feet. The government as the largest tenant in Yellowknife is in the position to negotiate a more cost effective lease.

Can the Minister explain why these other cheaper office spaces that he mentioned were not taken into consideration of the savings to this government besides this lease on its own?

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Supplementary To Question 175-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Arrangement

Question 175-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Arrangement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 483

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Antoine .

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Further Return To Question 175-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Arrangement

Question 175-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Arrangement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 483

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, all that was taken into consideration by the department. It became clear that this Lahm Ridge Tower was needed on an ongoing basis to satisfy the office space that was required by both the Department of Education, Culture and Employment as well as the Department of Transportation. We could have moved them over to a cheaper office space, but the cost to relocate them to another cheaper space would cost money.

It is estimated that it would have cost about $1.4 million and would have meant that there would have been a loss of about $0.5 million in tenant improvements that had already gone into the Lahm Ridge Tower since 1992. Whenever you move into another office space, all you are getting is a floor and then you have to put in the walls, the carpeting and so forth. All this has to be taken into consideration along with the disadvantage of disrupting the programs and services that the Department of Education, Culture and Employment is providing to the public, as well as the Department of Transportation.

These are the two departments who are providing a lot of programs and services to the people in the Northwest Territories and by moving them from one, out of the good existing lease, to another cheaper lease would have caused quite a bit of disruption. So all that has been taken into consideration. Overall it is still the opinion of the department that it was a good business deal and I have been briefed and informed by the deputy minister that we did this basically on a good business deal and I still support this decision. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 175-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Arrangement

Question 175-13(5): Lahm Ridge Tower Lease Arrangement

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 483

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko .