Debates of July 28th, 1999

This is page numbers 661 - 692 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was yellowknife .

Topics

Members Present

Item 1: Prayer

Consultations On Financing For Community Governments

Alberta And Transcanada Pipeline Agreements

Supporting Students Attending Post-secondary Programs

1999 Western Canada Summer Games

Career Development Program For Law Students

Concerns Regarding Yellowknife Correctional Facilities

Comprehensive Approach To Adult Education

Concerns Of Post-secondary Students

Cabinet Decisions To Construct Yellowknife Correctional Facilities

Purchasing Policies Of The GNWT

Support For The Aspirations Of Native People

Return To Oral Question 230-13(7): Yellowknife Correctional Centre

Return To Oral Question 226-13(7): Yellowknife Correctional Facility

Return To Oral Question 231-13(7): GNWT Tendering Process

Return To Oral Question 233-13(7): Consultation Process On Capital Changes

Return To Oral Question 241-13(7): Capital Funding For Correctional Centre

Return To Oral Question 237-13(7): Aboriginal Languages And Cultural Specialists - Aklavik

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Pension Assistance To Former Mlas

Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Support For Post-secondary Students

Correctional Agreement With Nunavut

Impact Of Correctional Capital Spending

Written Question 9-13(7): Update On Education Funding

Written Question 10-13(7): Application Of Bip And Manufacturing Directive

Written Question 11-13(7): Application Of Bip And Manufacturing Directive Re: P3 Projects

Dissolution Of The 13th Legislative Assembly

Bill 25:

An Act To Amend The Workers' Compensation Act

Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

Bill 25:

An Act To Amend The Workers' Compensation Act

Bill 22: Access To Information And Protection Of Privacy Statutes Amendment Act

Bill 24:

An Act To Amend The Access To Information And Protection Of Privacy Act

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Committee Motion: 34-13(7): Development Of A Workplan For A Political Accord With Aboriginal Governments

Supreme Court Legal Preference To Clarify Sections Of The Constitution And Charter Of Rights

Regional Representation On Cabinet (2-2-2 Proposal)

Establishment Of Constitutional And Electoral Reform Commission

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Item 22: Orders Of The Day

Members Present

Honourable Jim Antoine , Honourable Charles Dent , Mr. Erasmus , Honourable Sam Gargan, Mrs. Groenewegen , Mr. Henry , Honourable Stephen Kakfwi , Mr. Krutko , Honourable Michael Miltenberger , Mr. Morin , Mr. Ootes , Mr. Rabesca , Honourable Floyd Roland , Honourable Vince Steen .

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Oh, God, may your spirit and guidance be in us as we work for the benefit of all our people, for peace and justice in our land and for the constant recognition of the dignity and aspirations of those whom we serve. Amen.

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 661

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger . Good afternoon. Orders of the day, item 2, Ministers' statements, Mr. Steen .

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Minister's Statement 76-13(7): Consultations On Financing For Community Governments

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 661

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs is reviewing the way it funds community governments to run basic municipal programs and services. This review has been undertaken in partnership with the NWT Association of Municipalities and has involved elected community councillors and senior staff of a number of communities.

I have shared with Members some of the discussion papers that have been developed as part of the municipal finance review. These documents contain a number of proposals for changes to the way the department funds communities and we are anxious to receive comments on these proposals.

Plans are now being made for visits to communities to discuss these proposals. During August and September consultations will be held with community governments in every community in the Northwest Territories. As I have indicated, schedules for these visits are being arranged at this time.

In keeping with the partnership for reviewing the financing of community governments, MACA has established a number of regional consultation teams. Each regional consultation team will include a member of the NWT Association of Municipalities Board of Directors from that region and a senior administrative officer of one of the communities in the region, as well as senior MACA staff. MACA's regional superintendents are leading these consultation groups and they are contacting communities now to set up meetings with councils and their staff.

Mr. Speaker, consultations are a key part of the process in bringing change to the way we fund community governments. The steering committee for the municipal finance review will make its final recommendations to me as the Minister responsible, based on the input received from the consultation meetings held with communities.

I am informing Members of these plans for consultations, so they may participate in the meetings, which are scheduled in their communities. I look forward to sharing with you the times for these meetings when they are set.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Minister's Statement 76-13(7): Consultations On Financing For Community Governments

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 661

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Ministers' statement. Mr. Kakfwi .

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Minister's Statement 77-13(7): Alberta And Transcanada Pipeline Agreements

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 661

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, yesterday I updated Members on the increased oil and gas development activity in the Northwest Territories, and the government's intention to ensure northerners benefit from it. Today, I am pleased to advise Members that I will be signing two documents which will set the groundwork for gas development in the Northwest Territories.

First, I will sign a memorandum of understanding with the Government of Alberta. This agreement will commit our two governments to work together to realize the development of the Western Canada Sedimentary Basin. I am pleased to welcome the Honourable Mike Cardinal, Alberta Associate Minister of Forestry, to Yellowknife for the signing of this agreement. Mr. Cardinal is signing on behalf of the Honourable Steven West, Alberta Minister of Resource Development. It is our intention that the two governments act in concert for the benefit of all producers in the basin and for the benefit of all residents of Alberta and the Northwest Territories.

I will also be signing, with Mr. Rob Reid of TransCanada Pipelines, a memorandum of understanding committing both parties to work together as industry and government to realize the development of the gas reserves of the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Speaker, these two agreements will help set the tone for the present and future economies of the Northwest Territories. The signing of these agreements will take place today during the break in the Legislative Assembly's media room. Mr. Speaker, I take this opportunity to invite all Members of this House to attend. Thank you.

--Applause

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Minister's Statement 77-13(7): Alberta And Transcanada Pipeline Agreements

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 661

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Ministers' statements. Mr. Miltenberger .

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Minister's Statement 78-13(7): Supporting Students Attending Post-secondary Programs

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 662

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, most NWT residents are aware of how challenging it can be for northern students to attend post-secondary education. Historically, students had to leave the NWT to pursue degrees, diplomas and trades courses. In recent years, we have developed more opportunities through Aurora College for students to either take their complete program in the NWT or to take the first year or two of a degree program. However, even with Aurora College's expanding role, most post-secondary students still leave home, moving within the NWT or to the south to pursue their choice of courses.

The Department of Education, Culture and Employment is trying to make that move easier. Through the Student Financial Assistance Program, Northerners are eligible for one of the most generous grant and loan systems in the country. The cost of attending college and university continues to climb at most campuses so we are looking at options for increasing the level of support available to each student. The department is working on the details and hopes that changes can be made for the 2000 school year. This in addition to the millennium scholarships which I announced earlier this week.

The department is also making a number of changes to improve service to students and streamline the SFA system. These changes include:

- establishing a website to provide the details on SFA that students need along with a chat page so students can contact each other;

- improving access to SFA officers for students;

- simplifying and clarifying the application form so students have a better understanding of what they will receive;

- implementing an improved computer system which will allow better record keeping and timely access to student information;

- increased information to students about the funding, including timing of cheques and what is included in each cheque; and,

- providing options for students who prefer to have a slight delay in their January payment in order to receive funds in the new tax year.

Mr. Speaker, early this summer, a group of post-secondary students gathered together to talk about their experiences with the SFA Program. They shared their issues and ideas with the department and we are trying to address their concerns. While we may not be able to address everything immediately, this type of constructive feedback from students on the program is very helpful in improving our services. I would like to thank the organizers of this group for their efforts to make the system better for all students.

Some of the concerns raised by the students were a lack of information about SFA and having no effective way for students to connect with other NWT residents at the same college or university. In an attempt to address some of those difficulties, the department is sponsoring a series of pilot events for post-secondary students over the next three weeks. In cooperation with local MLAs and community representatives, the department will be holding SFA information barbecues in Yellowknife, Inuvik, Hay River, Fort Smith and Fort Simpson.

At each of these events, department staff will be on hand to answer specific questions about the Student Financial Assistance Program. This will include information about the millennium scholarships. We are also inviting students who are entering their final year to share their career interests and resumes with career development officers who will be available as a first step towards finding employment in the NWT after graduation. As well, there will be opportunities for students to connect with other students who are also attending the same college or university. This is particularly helpful for first year students who may have questions that only a seasoned student can help answer.

We hope many NWT students will take advantage of this chance to get ready for school and get the additional information they might need. In closing, Mr. Speaker, I would like to wish each of our NWT post-secondary students good luck with the coming year's studies. Leaving your home, families and friends is not easy but the end result in terms of career choices will make it all worthwhile. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Minister's Statement 78-13(7): Supporting Students Attending Post-secondary Programs

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 662

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Ministers' statements, Mr. Steen .

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Minister's Statement 79-13(7): 1999 Western Canada Summer Games

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 662

Vince Steen

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to speak about the 1999 Western Canada Summer Games which were recently held in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan. Our team included 131 NWT residents from 18 communities. They joined almost 2000 other competitors from Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia and the Yukon.

Mr. Speaker, there are many special stories about Team NWT that I would like to share with you. First, I would like to congratulate all the team members for their performance. Our athletes were excellent ambassadors of our northern spirit.

Team NWT took home three medals. Jonathan Kurszewski of Fort Smith won a gold medal in the javelin by throwing his personal best distance.

--Applause

In wrestling, Peter Houweling and Aziz Ahmed, both of Yellowknife, won silver and bronze medals.

--Applause

Mr. Speaker, there are two other stories about Team NWT that I would like to share. Our first ever wheelchair athlete, Vital Manuel from Fort Good Hope, competed in tennis. He represents a movement to include persons with disabilities in mainstream sports. Dawn Tremblay, of Yellowknife, competed in wrestling. She represents the successful promotion of female athletes in non-traditional sports.

--Applause

Mr. Speaker, I again would like to congratulate all members of Team NWT for their fine performance. I am sure that the Members would join me in saying that we are proud of them and wish them the very best as they progress in their chosen sports. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Minister's Statement 79-13(7): 1999 Western Canada Summer Games

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 663

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Ministers' statements. Mr. Kakfwi .

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Minister's Statement 80-13(7): Career Development Program For Law Students

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 663

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am proud to announce that the Department of Justice has created a bursary program for qualified NWT aboriginal law students. It is called the Department of Justice Career Development Program and will be available to resident aboriginal students who have been accepted or conditionally accepted in a Bachelor of Laws program at a recognized Canadian University Faculty of Law. The program will offer $10,000 bursaries for a maximum of four law students.

These law students will also have the benefit of a summer job with the Department of Justice, and mentoring from department lawyers throughout the summer and school year. The department will assist each bursary student in an effort to get an articling position. At least one student each year will have the opportunity to

article in the department's legal division. If more than one bursary recipient graduates in the same year, the students will be provided the opportunity to compete for the articling position.

The Deputy Minister of Justice will appoint a selection committee to screen and select the successful students. The committee will include department officials from legal division, legislation division, personnel services and the directorate.

These $10,000 bursaries will be awarded each year and must be used in the year awarded. A student wishing to obtain a bursary for a second or third year will have to reapply before the start of the next school year and must have successfully completed each year of study and had a satisfactory performance appraisal. The committee will develop criteria which it will use to evaluate applications for the bursary, but priority will be given to students who wish to practice law with the Government of the Northwest Territories.

This program demonstrates our commitment to encourage aboriginal students to pursue careers as lawyers in the Northwest Territories and to one day assume professional and senior management positions within the Department of Justice. Anyone wanting to learn more about this opportunity or to submit an application for the 1999-2000 school year can contact the manager of personnel services at the Department of Justice. Thank you.

--Applause

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Minister's Statement 80-13(7): Career Development Program For Law Students

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 663

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Ministers' statements. Item 3, members' statements. Mr. Krutko .

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Member's Statement 187-13(7): Concerns Regarding Yellowknife Correctional Facilities

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 663

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my statement today falls in line with the questions that have been raised in this House about an increase in developing a brand new correction facility here in Yellowknife at a cost of over $30 million. Mr. Speaker, I find it awfully offensive at this time, after going through the cuts we made in this House in regard to having to cut alcohol and drug programs, closure of the Tl'oondih Healing Centre in my riding, Delta House in Inuvik, cuts to alcohol and drug specialists in our different communities, and also cuts to the youth initiatives that we have taken in this House.

In regard to where we are going with this idea, it floors me. We talk about developing our youth, developing our communities, community justice, community wellness. We talk about community empowerment, taking care of problems in the communities at home in the communities. But here we are again, developing a major institutional structure to institutionalize the people of the Northwest Territories in bigger jail facilities, bigger young offender facilities.

Basically the people in the North have been institutionalized since they were born. Either through the hostel systems or the school systems, they were taken away from the communities. We had to go away to go to school. We are doing the same thing again with the youth of this territory by putting them in a facility, a joint facility at that, with criminals who are adults.

That I question on the basis, is it constitutionally right for this government to be taking such an action knowing that there is the possibility of legal parameters that we may have to follow to realize that these individuals, these youth, have to be protected against other criminals? This government decides to go ahead and put two institutions into one, have the youth on the one side of the building and have the basically hard-core criminals on the other side.

I just cannot get at where this government is coming from when they tell us, we are trying to help the communities take on more responsibilities and take on more control of what happens in your communities. You deal with your problems in your communities. We give you the resources. But what do we do? We take the resources away from the communities. We build more correction facilities and institutions, and then that is the answer for the people in our communities. Is it this government's way of running the government by taking everything away from the communities? Thank you.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 187-13(7): Concerns Regarding Yellowknife Correctional Facilities

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 663

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Members' statements. Mr. Ootes .

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Member's Statement 188-13(7): Comprehensive Approach To Adult Education

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 663

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On another subject, I along with the Minister of Education , Mr. Miltenberger , and the other Yellowknife MLAs, attended a meeting with Yellowknife

adult educators. This group included representatives from eight organizations, such as Aurora College, the Yellowknife Association for Community Living, Tree of Peace, and the FOCUS Program of the YWCA to name just a couple of them. Many concerns were raised including the lack of federal and territorial government funding for education and training programs for income support recipients, policy changes within the federal Ministry of Human Resources Development Canada, which now provides no training support for individuals who face employment barriers, and inconsistent and non-standardized program delivery in communities.

Overall, this translates into significantly reduced training and support services for individuals with limited literacy skills. It also points to a lack of overall vision and comprehensive approach to adult education here in the territories. The Minister recently was able, and I commend him for this, to fund community literacy projects through the Yellowknife Association for Community Living, the YWCA, and the Neshda Child Care Centre. But funding commitments like that are badly needed, and we also need to address some fundamental issues.

The adult educators have asked the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment to evaluate the department's strategic approach to adult education, to review and implement core funding to appropriately support its vision on adult education, to make multi-year funding available for adult education programs and services, and to work collaboratively with community-based organizations which have experience in adult education service delivery.

Mr. Speaker, investment in adult education and literacy upgrading will pay off many times down the road, with savings in such areas as justice and income support. We need to work and continue to refine a vision and a plan for a comprehensive approach to adult education here in the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 188-13(7): Comprehensive Approach To Adult Education

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 664

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Members' statements. Mr. Erasmus .

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Member's Statement 189-13(7): Concerns Of Post-secondary Students

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 664

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to speak today about students as well, so I was very pleased to hear the two Ministers making some good news statements about bursaries and support for students. Mr. Speaker, I just finished a meeting with a couple of very, very frustrated students. They had a complete list of problems that they with other students have identified.

This includes inadequate funding, late arrival of funding, issues concerning approval for funding, funding being revoked without notification and/or explanation, no funding for third semesters and the summer sessions, no explanation for funds given or confirmation of deposits. The spirit of the transition allowance is inconsistent, in fact with funds for 1999 arriving in 1998. There is no funding for books, lack of funding for graduate studies, and accountability issues. There are clerical errors. There is no way to change a student officer if you are having a problem. There is lack of flexibility with travel.

You are locked right into whatever you get. There is no emergency loans process, no money management support. There are poor appeal mechanisms. When they are phoning in, they are getting voice mail. There is insufficient contact information. Student officers are going on vacation in August and, worse, in September.

There is a whole list of things here, Mr. Speaker, so I was very pleased to hear the Minister indicate that they are going to be making a number of changes to improve service to students and streamline the student financial assistance. I would like to congratulate him on making these changes, but, Mr. Speaker, where is the major change that is needed to address the student financial assistance, the insufficient amount of funding that our students are getting? Right now they are getting about half of what is required for tuition. Student allowances are low, the whole works. Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

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Member's Statement 189-13(7): Concerns Of Post-secondary Students

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 664

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

The Member for Yellowknife North is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his statement. Do we have any nays? There are no nays. Mr. Erasmus , you have unanimous consent.

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Member's Statement 189-13(7): Concerns Of Post-secondary Students

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 664

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I was saying, the biggest problem is the insufficient amount of student financial assistance. This government has been sitting on a plan for two years now that was going to be put forward and passed so that students could get funding this year. Where is it? The other thing is that students need some type of association, a students' union, and this government should help them to achieve that, in fact provide some funding so that there is consistency. We know that students come and go as soon as they have their degrees. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to thank everybody for allowing me to conclude my statement, and I will be having some questions for the Minister of Education later. Thank you.

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Member's Statement 189-13(7): Concerns Of Post-secondary Students

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 664

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Members' statements. Mr. Morin .

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Member's Statement 190-13(7): Cabinet Decisions To Construct Yellowknife Correctional Facilities

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 664

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I talk about the Yellowknife Correctional Centre once again. It is with a heavy heart that I heard about this decision, Mr. Speaker, by the Minister of Justice . Ultimately it was the Minister of Justice that sent this proposal forward to Cabinet and his Cabinet colleagues. They in their wisdom decided to build a new facility in Yellowknife, not to renovate an old facility but to build a new facility in Yellowknife. It is also public knowledge that the majority of the dollars are going into Yellowknife at this time.

Everything announced recently coming out of this government has been Yellowknife, Yellowknife, Yellowknife. Yellowknife's economy is bad, so they have to shore it up with a housing program. Yellowknife's gold mines are being threatened, so we have to help them out. Yellowknife's diamond polishing needs help, so we help that out. Now we take the government money and we spend it in our great city of Yellowknife again. I wonder whatever happened to places like Inuvik, Hay River, Fort Smith, Fort Resolution. Maybe they do not exist anymore.

Maybe because they are outside the boundaries of the city of Yellowknife, they are not qualified anymore to put in proposals to this government. This government has shut the door on other regional centres to even bring forward a proposal to build a new correctional centre for the Northwest Territories. They have shut that door. They never even had the door open. The Minister in

his wisdom felt no one else was qualified. It is here. We will keep it here.

They even carried on further, Mr. Speaker. Before the money for that budget was approved in this Legislative Assembly, they put an ad in the Globe and Mail. That was a week ago today, an ad in the Globe and Mail. I tabled that in this House. I checked through all the newspapers in the Northwest Territories. Now they are shutting the door to northern businesses because they have not even put an ad in a northern newspaper. They have given southern businesses a hand-up against northern businesses. Maybe there are no northern businesses qualified. Maybe they have made that decision already. I do not know.

But what I do know is that the government of the day and especially the Minister of Justice has forgotten that anything exists outside this Legislative Assembly and Yellowknife. They are a government for Yellowknife, not the people of the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 190-13(7): Cabinet Decisions To Construct Yellowknife Correctional Facilities

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 665

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Members' statements. Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Member's Statement 191-13(7): Purchasing Policies Of The GNWT

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 665

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am going to speak again today about something that I have brought up in this House before, and that is the purchasing policies of this government. Purchasing policies have been developed and implemented by the GNWT to provide incentive for the establishment and sustainability of northern businesses. With the advent of community empowerment, there was a shift to devolving responsibility to communities, band councils, local development corporations, et cetera, for the delivery of programs, services and capital projects.

In this shift, my concern is with what happened to government policies such as the Business Incentive Policy and the Manufacturing Directive Policy. Has the enforcement or implementation of these policies been lost in this shuffle?

Northern businesses have made investments on the basis of these policies and now rely on happenstance to learn the projects and who is delivering them. I have said before in this House and I will say it again, every project funded directly and delivered on behalf of this government by various departments, local or regional governments, should be made known through a central information source such as a government Web site. Mr. Henry has spoken about the need to make Nunavut aware of what we have to offer by northern contractors, suppliers, and manufacturers, and I think this is a good idea.

But before we run off to Nunavut, I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that we need to make more efforts to make our own western communities, development corporation, government departments, and agencies aware of what we have to offer here in the North. Then we need to make sure that contracts funded by this government adhere to our own purchasing policies in order to realize maximum benefits from our limited government expenditures to northern businesses, and these northern businesses in turn employ northerners.

Hay River has a largely self-reliant manufacturing sector but yet, over and over again, I hear of government contracts going out specifying southern suppliers. Just today, I got another fax from another manufacturer in Hay River where it is not even left open. A southern supplier of a product which is manufactured here in the North is actually specified in a government contract. A call had to be made again to the deputy minister, to the regional people, and now this has been corrected. But the business only heard about this just by circumstance. This is not satisfactory.

We do have a limited number of capital dollars, and if we cannot take and make maximum benefit of these to the benefit of Northerners, well then we are not doing our job. I do not know how we can look further afield when we cannot even take care of making this information known and enforced right here in our own territory. Later on, I will have questions again for the Minister of Public Works and Services regarding this. Thank you.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 191-13(7): Purchasing Policies Of The GNWT

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 665

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Members' statements, Mr. Rabesca .

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Member's Statement 192-13(7): Support For The Aspirations Of Native People

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 665

James Rabesca

North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to make a comment about how, over the last few years, this government and the federal government both have changed their thinking in relation to the needs and aspirations of our native population. As many of you may remember, it was not long ago that our native population were not elected and totally forgotten. Many various concerns were being raised over the years. Many concerns have been addressed and others are still being worked on.

This is the point that I am saying, today we have land claims set in only three areas of our territory and one more in the final stages. Recently, on the federal level, many more claims are being worked on and many have finalized agreements. This, I believe, is a complete change in thinking than it was only a few years ago. I would also like to say this is the way of the future, and all departments should see this positive move as one of the opportunity for a strong partnership, investment, and strong human resources.

The native population needs the support of the federal government and the territorial government for the initiative to ensure our voice is heard and our aspirations for self government are made a reality. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 192-13(7): Support For The Aspirations Of Native People

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 665

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Kakfwi .

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Return To Oral Question 230-13(7): Yellowknife Correctional Centre

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 665

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two returns to oral questions, first in response to Mr. Krutko who asked a question on July 26th in regard to the Yellowknife Correctional Centre.

The Financial Management Board reviewed and approved the Department of Justice's proposal to reprofile the Yellowknife Correctional Centre capital project from enhancement and renovation project to a replacement project on June 4th, 1999.

Ferguson, Simek and Clark, a Yellowknife engineering and architectural company had been retained earlier in the year to complete the functional plan for the proposed enhancement and renovations project. They concluded that it would be cheaper and more efficient to build a completely new facility over a shorter period of time. It was also concluded that further savings could be achieved by sharing plant and services between the Yellowknife Correctional Facility and new male young offenders facility. Savings were estimated at $1.34 million in capital costs and $262,000 annually in on-going operations and maintenance.

The department accepted the consultant's conclusions and proceeded to the Financial Management Board with a recommendation to revise the capital project. According to agreed procedures by advising MLAs and the Standing Committee on Government Operations on capital project changes, the government was obligated to forward information on this Financial Management Board decision of June 4th, 1999. Information was forwarded on July 14th, 1999. An apology has been forwarded to the chair of the Standing Committee on Government Operations for the delay.

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Return To Oral Question 226-13(7): Yellowknife Correctional Facility

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 665

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I have also a return to oral question asked by Mr. Morin on July 26th, also in regard to the Yellowknife Correctional Facility.

The Member from Tu Nedhe asked when the decision was made to reprofile the Yellowknife Correctional Facility capital project from a renovation to a replacement project. This decision was approved by the Financial Management Board on June 4th, 1999. The Standing Committee on Government Operations was provided a draft of the supplementary appropriation bill on June 14th, and the Minister of Finance appeared before the committee on July 16th to discuss this matter. Thank you.

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Return To Oral Question 226-13(7): Yellowknife Correctional Facility

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 666

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Returns to oral questions, Mr. Antoine .

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Return To Oral Question 231-13(7): GNWT Tendering Process

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 666

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I have three returns to oral questions, the first one here was asked by Mr. Morin and is in regard to the GNWT tendering process.

The Member from Tu Nedhe asked about the expression of interest advertisement that appeared in the Globe and Mail on July 21st, 1999. This ad was designed specifically to solicit interest from registered architectural firms who possess extensive experience in designing podular direct correctional institutions. It was placed after consultation with the NWT Architectural Society.

For clarification, I can inform the Member that subsequent to a thorough evaluation process, the Government of the Northwest Territories will provide the northern consultant community with a registry of qualified sub-consultants with a proven background in the complexities of such a program specific facility. In his question, the Member inquired about the tender that was placed in the Globe and Mail. It is important to note that an expression of interest process is different from a tender and does not commit the Government of the Northwest Territories to any contractual obligation whatsoever.

With respect to the sequence of events leading to the placement of the advertisement, I note that the Standing Committee on Government Operations was provided a draft of the supplementary appropriation bill on July 14th, and Minister Dent appeared before the committee to discuss this matter on July 16th, and the ad appeared on July 21st. The Minister of Finance , the Minister of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development and myself have all noted that the committee should have been notified of the change in this project a few weeks earlier and have apologized for this inadvertent mistake. We intend to do better in this regard in the future.

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Return To Oral Question 233-13(7): Consultation Process On Capital Changes

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 666

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

The second return is to an oral question, Mr. Speaker, asked by Mr. Krutko regarding the consultation process on capital changes.

The Member from the MacKenzie Delta inquired about the process for informing Members of major changes to the capital plan.

Section 4.3 (

b) of the Financial Administration Manual states that the respective Minister will advise the appropriate MLA and standing committee when a department makes any adjustment to a capital project that significantly affects the scope, for example, $100,000 or 20 percent of the project budget, whichever is greater or timing, for example, a year or more delay, and no time period is specified. While no time period is specified, normal practice is that letters are sent out within two weeks of such a change.

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Return To Oral Question 241-13(7): Capital Funding For Correctional Centre

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 666

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Mr. Speaker, my final return, to oral questions asked by Mrs. Groenewegen on July 27th. It is in regards to capital funding for the correctional centre.

All cash outlays to fund government operations and infrastructures are financed from a combination of existing working capital, future revenues, borrowing through short-term credit lines, issuing long-term debt instruments, or financing arrangements such as leases. Except for specific facility leases, financing arrangements are normally based on overall government cash requirements as opposed to borrowing for specific activities or projects.

The $30 million cost of the YCC replacement project will require a cash outlay over the four year project. During this same period, we expect revenues from the exchange of service agreement with Nunavut to be about $18 million. The $12 million difference will have to be temporarily funded from a combination of working capital, other revenues, and short-term debt. Revenues received under the exchange of service agreement after the four year construction period, will replace these financing sources. The interest cost to accelerate the cash flow for this project will be more than offset by the savings that will be realized through the facility replacement approach.

This is why FMB approved the change. The change to the project will not be detrimental to other capital needs. As the Evan's Report clearly established, the YCC project is critical and urgent. It is a significant infrastructure investment that would have to be a priority whether or not offsetting revenues are available. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

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Return To Oral Question 241-13(7): Capital Funding For Correctional Centre

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 667

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Returns to oral question. Mr. Miltenberger .

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Return To Oral Question 237-13(7): Aboriginal Languages And Cultural Specialists - Aklavik

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 667

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Krutko , and it is in regards to aboriginal language and cultural specialists in Aklavik.

In addition to teachers, there are three categories of staff who may be employed in schools to work with students. First, there are aboriginal language and cultural specialists who are covered by the Northwest Territories Teachers' Association collective agreement. Specialists must be certified at the time of hire and are required to take ongoing training. These employees are considered teachers under the Education Act and are certified to provide an education program in an aboriginal language.

Second, there are classroom assistants who are covered by the Union of Northern Workers Collective Agreement. Under the Education Act these employees must work under the direction of a teacher.

Third, the district education authority can hire people to instruct local programs as allowed for under

section 118 (k.1) of the Education Act. These people are hired on short-term arrangements through the DEA and are not covered by the NWTTA or the UNW contract. The type of compensation available to any staff members depends on which category they were hired under and the type of work they are doing.

The Department of Education, Culture and Employment contacted the Beaufort Delta Divisional Education Council in May about the situation in Aklavik. This is an issue to be resolved between the Divisional Education Council and the District Education Authority. The department commits to raising the issue with the Divisional Education Council and ensuring it is resolved before the beginning of the school year. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Return To Oral Question 237-13(7): Aboriginal Languages And Cultural Specialists - Aklavik

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 667

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Returns to oral questions. Item 5, recognitions of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Kakfwi .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 667

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to recognize the visitors we have from TransCanada Pipeline Executive as well as the Minister from the Government of Alberta. First the Honourable Mike Cardinal, the Associate Minister of Forestry.

--Applause

Also, from TransCanada Pipeline Executive, Bob Reid, the senior vice-president of Northern Development; Ton Turner, the senior vice-president and president international; Jake Epp, the senior vice-president of Government and External Affairs; Brian Mcnulty, the associate general counsel for Energy Transmission and Robert Day, the vice- president for the public sector relations. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 667

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Welcome to the Assembly. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Krutko .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 667

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize a former Member of this House, Mr. Pete Fraser of Yellowknife.

--Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 667

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Welcome to the Assembly. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Ootes .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 667

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to take the opportunity to recognize our Pages and to thank them for the excellent work they are doing here with us this particular week. First of all I would like to introduce Lindsay McIvor, Gwendolyn Birch, Kyla Schauerte, Kyla Wright, Leann Bussell, Richard Walsh, Brian Sosiak and Erin Olovson-Cleveland. I would also like to recognize the Sergeant-at-Arms, Mr. Joseph Oullette, for the good work he is doing with the Pages. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 667

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. I do have a problem with the Pages being recognized in the Chamber, it is not recognizing visitors in the gallery, so just to remind the Members that these types of statements could have been better served by doing it in a Member's statement as opposed to recognizing them on the Chamber floor. I would like to remind the Members of that.

Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Morin .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 667

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to recognize Mrs. Esther Braden who is the chairperson for the NWT Seniors' Society. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 667

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Welcome to the Assembly. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. I would like to recognize the rest of the people in the gallery, welcome to the Assembly. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Morin .

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Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 667

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question will be to the Minister of Justice . In previous sittings of this Legislative Assembly as well as when we all came here a little over three years ago, Mr. Speaker, we had agreed on a process, we had agreed on a consultation process of developing policies,

developing programs, any major changes. I believe our government in the past have been censured for changes to the capital budget before but what I am wondering, Mr. Minister is, when did you meet with the social programs committee to consult with the social programs committee on change of renovation to the Yellowknife Correctional Centre compared to a brand new building? Thank You.

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Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 668

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

The Minister of Justice , Mr. Kakfwi .

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Return To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 668

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think it is important to recognize that the decision to locate the young offenders facility was made last year under the previous Premier . The decision was made by Cabinet and FMB to locate a young offenders facility here in Yellowknife, this brand new facility. That decision was made here at that time. I think it is important for the public to know that the decision to do major renovations to the adult facility was also made in the previous Premier 's tenure in the amount of $30 million, no different than what we are talking about today. So we should be clear about that.

As a new Minister of Justice since April, I have taken the time to revisit the decision by the Cabinet made last year to locate the young offenders facility here. I visited some of the facilities down south. I have revisited all the arguments made as to why it should be made here. And I have decided that it is not in the interest of the inmates or the staff of this government or the public for me to ask Cabinet to revisit that issue.

On the adult facility, the adult facility is located here. Again, last year, Cabinet decided to spent $30 million renovating this particular facility. It was such in scope that you could say we were trying to build a brand new car piece by piece, and it got to the point where after the decision was made, budgeting this project at $30 million, we contracted a firm to do more detailed costing of what it would cost this government to build such a facility, and it actually came in. This was done after the decision was made.

Over the course of the winter, the consultants came back and said, in fact, it would cost you $35 million to do major renovations such as you are proposing. It is, in fact, cheaper to build a brand new facility over four years at $30 million. Thank you.

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Return To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 668

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Morin .

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Supplementary To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 668

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister, in his long-winded speech passing the buck and taking no responsibility for decisions he makes, it is completely amazing to watch. But the question was, and I will try to keep it simple so he can understand it, the question is very clear, when did you meet with the social programs committee to consult with the major change of a renovation to a new capital project? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 668

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Kakfwi .

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Further Return To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 668

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, perhaps the catcall is preventing me from finishing my response, but it does get rather winded because there need to be corrections all the time to some of the rhetoric from the other side. Let me make the point. The idea to locate a new facility here in Yellowknife was made last year. It was made last year. The idea to piece by piece replace the existing adult facility, the Yellowknife Correctional Facility, was also made last year.

As a new Minister, I felt my job was to revisit those decisions to make sure that they were made in the best interest not only of the MLAs and their little constituencies but also the government, the inmates, many of whom are our own people, coming from our own communities, who have a right, I believe, to have adequate facilities provided to them during their incarceration, who have and we have an obligation to provide adequate services and support to them.

All things considered, these decisions made during Mr. Morin 's time as a Premier , I think are good decisions. As to why he is saying they are bad decisions is beyond me. There is no need in making the point. There is really no need for me to consult on decisions that have been made over a year ago to these committees, but still we are building these facilities within the financial commitments made by this Legislature, this $30 million spread out over seven years, plus over $6 million committed through a PY financing scenario to build a young offenders facility. We can do both within that scope.

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Further Return To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 668

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Morin , your point of order.

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Further Return To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 668

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

I thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday yourself, Mr. Speaker, laid the rules down in this Legislative Assembly very clear. Ministers are to answer their questions directly. We, when we ask our questions, are supposed to use our questions in the proper way. We have done that. I have listened to this Minister grandstand and pass the buck for the last five to ten minutes. I would like him to answer the question and follow your ruling to be direct and answer the question. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 668

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Morin , I did not make any rulings except to remind the Members regarding their questions and their

preambles and also requesting the Ministers to be as brief in their response as possible. Also, if there is a clarification that is required, then we have to allow the Ministers to make those clarifications and also allow the Members, if they wish, to clarify, then allow that to happen too. But there is no point of order. The time is still on. Mr. Kakfwi , to the question.

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Further Return To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 668

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have indicated, through the statement from the Premier and myself that as soon as possible after the June 4th decision, to reprofile the major renovation to a replacement project that we had undertaken to advise the Standing Committee on Government Operations of this, but the decision, as I said, was made in June, 1998, and September, 1998, to locate the male young offenders facility here in Yellowknife and the adult male correctional facility that is presently located here was never intended to be moved, there has never been any discussion or consideration to move it. We simply decided to renovate it. An interesting point is, why

it never occurred to the previous Ministers or the Cabinet of last year, why the price tag of $30 million, who did not consider the time just to build a whole new project, but that is afterthought. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 669

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Morin .

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Supplementary To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 669

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As one of the MLAs that represent one of those little constituencies, as the Minister said, I do have a concern about the Minister's approach saying not necessary to consult because we are doing the same as previous decisions of previous governments. Well, he should stand on his own two feet and take possession of the decisions he makes, but he lacks that political will or backbone. As far as the consultation process goes, the Minister said in this House previously, he made the decision that this building could not be built in any other community.

He made that decision, so maybe now he can tell this House how he came about to make that decision. What process did the Minister use to consult with other regional centres or other communities of what they would put forward to this government, of what they would offer to this government in order to get this facility in their communities that would help them out economically? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 669

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Kakfwi

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Further Return To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 669

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I have said, the Cabinet, in June, 1998, and September, 1998, I suppose, on the Financial Management Board Meeting, decided and made certain decisions and made certain financial commitments which were approved in the Main Estimates this year. It is not my prerogative to unilaterally revisit every decision made by Cabinet under my portfolio, but I have the prerogative to review decisions periodically to ensure they are current, that they take into account the circumstances in which we find ourselves sometimes six months or a year after a decision and, and I have done that.

That is what resulted in my going back to Cabinet and FMB asking to reprofile this project from a renovations project to a replacement project. I must say that I did take time to look at the young offenders facility and asked why did the previous Minister of Justice and the Cabinet at that time, what basis on which did they make a decision to locate the young offenders facility in Yellowknife. I had extensive discussions and debate with my officials about it.

I have decided, in the end, that there are not sufficient arguments to be made that would enable me to ask Cabinet to reconsider this decision. It was never in my prerogative to ask Cabinet to consider relocating the male adult facility from Yellowknife to another one, but the Member asked and so I can say that there are many compelling arguments that can be made which will be supported by many of his constituents and mine as well.

All of these people who are incarcerated require support programs and services, medical services, services which are available here in Yellowknife and most of which are not available in other places. The courts are located here. This is the central transportation hub for most of our communities. Inmates want that it be easy for friends, families, and relatives to visit them. They want to ensure that there is good program space and facilities for the young offenders and for adult male offenders as well.

I know they are getting impatient but, Mr. Speaker, the question was asked, what compelling reasons that we have to ensure that the facilities are located in Yellowknife. It was not I who raised the debate here. We could have a more extensive and relaxed conversation if it comes up in the standing committee.

I can shorten by simply saying I have reviewed the arguments and the reasons, and in the interests of the inmates, the young offenders, the benefits that would flow to them that would not flow to them if this was located elsewhere and also the time constraints that we have by order of the fire marshal, our agreement to provide services to Nunavut that we proceed on the basis that FMB and Cabinet have approved recently. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 669

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Thank you. I again would like to remind the Members and the Ministers, a question must not seek information about matters which are secret such as decisions or proceedings of Cabinet but to remind Cabinet that when they respond on the proceedings of Cabinet which could be considered secret, then they have opened themselves to Cabinet process in which they must not respond to. I know the Members cannot seek it, but if Cabinet opens that opportunity, then they must respond to it. Oral questions. Final supplementary, Mr. Morin .

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Supplementary To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 669

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It was interesting to listen to that long-winded speech with very little substance. The Minister said and the question was very clear, it was never answered in his little speech, but it was interesting what he said. Medical services, in Hay River, for example, are not good enough for YCC correctional people. I wonder if they are good enough for the people of Tu Nedhe. Are they good enough for the people of Hay River? I would think so.

But the question was, and God forbid, if you ever had to have hardship on people in YCC or the staff of this government, that they would have to draw on the services applied south of the lake and move down there. But the question is, was there any process, within the Minister's review, of changing this from a renovation to a capital project, was there any process available for any community in the Northwest Territories, other than Yellowknife, to submit what they had to offer to attract that to their region or their community? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 669

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Kakfwi .

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Further Return To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 669

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I disown whatever the Member had credited to me for having said it. I did not say those things, that is just what he twisted out of the good words that I provided to him as a Member of this House. But in response to his question, the answer is, there was no process. The decisions that were made by Cabinet were not for the Minister to change unilaterally, so I only enhanced them and

carried out the decisions made by Cabinet and FMB last year within the scope and the financial commitments made by this government and this Legislature. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Question 243-13(7): Consultation On Correctional Facility Change

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 670

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Mr. Ootes .

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Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 670

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to get on to another subject which is very important to our community, and that is in the area of adult education. I spoke earlier today about this area. We had a meeting with the Minister, Yellowknife MLAs and a group of adult educators who are providing services through various organizations. They are concerned about a number of areas, and I have referred to those. They would like to see the government have a strategic approach to adult education.

They want to see the implementation of core funding to properly support the vision in adult education and to make multi-year funding available. Could the Minister provide us with an update, since that meeting, what he and the department have in plans to address these particular issues? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 670

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

The Minister of Education, Culture and Employment , Mr. Miltenberger .

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Return To Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 670

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to commend my colleague for his continued interest in adult basic education and literacy and such. He is right that he and three of his colleagues from Yellowknife, and I did meet with the folks in Yellowknife on May 14th. There was a subsequent meeting on June 25th to follow up to the commitment made. Out of that particular meeting came the plan to coordinate a workshop that is being looked after by the North Slave Career Centre for August, at which time they are going to map out the plan for Yellowknife and where they go from here in terms of partnerships and better coordinating their resources.

On the broader issue of adult basic education there is, in fact, as we speak, a review being done and a plan being pulled together to lay out the priorities and direction and review where we have been, where we are, where we should be going as a government and a territory and how do we work with the colleges and the communities and the non-government organizations. That is being worked on. It is a working group made up of government people as well as people from non-government organizations. Thank you.

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Return To Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 670

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Ootes .

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Supplementary To Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 670

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

I want to thank the Minister for following up on that action. He is well aware it is an important issue for a lot of people here in Yellowknife. There are a lot of people from the communities and our community, so it directly affects all of us here because they are our community people from throughout the North. My question, Mr. Speaker, is with regard to the multi-year funding which not only applies here but in other areas, not just in the adult education area. I wonder if the Minister can address that for me, in general terms, if the government will look at multi-year funding for specifically the adult education groups that may extend further and is that under discussion? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 670

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Miltenberger .

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Further Return To Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 670

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The issue of multi-year funding is being reviewed with schools, with all projects that are yearly funded, Healthy Children's Initiative and such, as well as adult basic education. I would like to point out to the Member that the majority or the bulk of funding for adult basic education at this juncture is funnelled through and delivered through the colleges and the learning centres in the communities and the campuses in the larger centres. The issue of non-government organizations is one that is still unresolved, but it is something that there is discussion and review on as well.

It is a fundamental issue and how can we provide greater certainty to these organizations so that, in fact, they can plan more than six months or a year at a time. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 670

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Ootes .

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Supplementary To Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 670

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the course of the Minister initiating action by his officials and to look at this within concert with other organizations, does he have a time frame that he has set for his officials to provide a report or certainly to address this issue? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 670

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Miltenberger .

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Further Return To Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 670

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In fact, the work that has been done is well along, and I would suggest that within the next two months we should be complete and we should be able to show progress.

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Further Return To Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 670

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Final supplementary, Mr. Ootes .

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Supplementary To Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 670

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There seems to be an urgent need to address this issue and I appreciate that it will take that time. I guess my concern lies with the next step of the process. Will the Minister be then in a position to make some recommendations for the future budget for the year 2000-2001? No doubt multi-year funding and so forth will have to be taken into consideration, but possible increased funding as well. Can the Minister tell me if he will be able to initiate some action regarding the funding? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 670

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Miltenberger .

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Further Return To Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 671

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Very clearly the department will be paying very careful attention to the recommendations coming out of this work. In those recommendations, along with others in other areas, like the strategic plan in the Minister's forum. We will be attempting to incorporate the recommendations where we can and to the best of our ability for the upcoming budget and business planning process.

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Further Return To Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Question 244-13(7): Update On Adult Education Initiatives

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 671

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Mr. Krutko .

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Question 245-13(7): Pension Assistance To Former Mlas

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 671

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance . It is in regard to former Members of this House who are finding themselves in financial difficulties because of their age or medical conditions and also not having the ability to generate an income. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance what is he doing to try and find a workable solution for former Members of this House to be able to retain their pension either by a buyout or being able to assist them because of the financial difficulties that they find themselves in now because of not being employed or not having the financial ability to be able to take care of themselves?

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Question 245-13(7): Pension Assistance To Former Mlas

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 671

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Krutko , I am going to rule the question out of order because it is not within the Minister of Finance's responsibility. The question is ruled out of order. Oral questions. Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 671

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct my questions to the Minister responsible for Corrections with respect to the anticipated and planned new facilities for Yellowknife here. In his comment the Minister has said that there were compelling arguments and these arguments were reviewed. In fairness, I have to say that I do not believe that when we are talking about delivery of programs and services to Northerners that political considerations should overshadow what makes good sense in terms of serving the clients.

In this case the inmates and the young offenders, but I am curious when we keep hearing that this was cheaper and there were compelling arguments, were these arguments only put forward and were these prices only put forward? We know that prices put forward by departments on capital projects can be very subjective. When you get out there and you actually go to tender, sometimes it can be substantially different. It sounds like this is the basis.

It sounds like it was price, availability of services, it seems like the young offenders facility we are putting that in with the adult facility has helped to shore up the whole viability of the new construction. Are the arguments that came forward only arguments that were presented by senior bureaucrats within the Department of Justice? Thank you.

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Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 671

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

The Minister of Justice , Mr. Kakfwi .

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Return To Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 671

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The decision, as I have said earlier, to locate the young offenders facility for young males, for that facility to be located in Yellowknife was made a year ago by this government, by this Cabinet and approved by the Financial Management Board. That, in my view, is a decision that I as a Minister am compelled to support and try to implement. A decision to do major renovations to the tune of $30 million over seven years to the adult correctional male facility was also made 11 months ago or ten months ago, September of 1998, by Cabinet and FMB.

Again, as a Minister, I am compelled to carry out the decisions of Cabinet and the Financial Management Board and this is what I have done.

I have also, as a new Minister of Justice , met with my deputy minister a week after I was assigned this portfolio and the very first thing I asked him were questions about the plans to do major renovations to the adult facility here, the reasons why decisions were made to locate the young female offenders facility in Inuvik and why a young male offenders facility was going to be located in Yellowknife. As a Minister, I took the opportunity to revisit those decisions, why the decisions were made in the first place, when they were made and the reasons on which the Cabinet and the Financial Management Board of the day made their decision.

I took into account that we have also been served notice that we have shrinking financial resources as a government. We have a fire marshal order that must be met within two years. We have a service agreement with Nunavut that must be honoured and complied with. We also have a desire to increase the number of federal inmates, most of whom are aboriginal from our constituencies, who we would like to have the flexibility to take into our correctional facilities.

Right now that number is capped at 20, it means of all federal inmates who are sent down south, a maximum of only 20 can be taken by our correctional facility. We are seeking to lift that so that we can, in fact, take more of northern federal inmates back into our correctional facilities.

Those are the reasons in general terms as to why I have chosen as a Minister, not to have the audacity to ask Cabinet to make decisions that could unravel a whole range of other capital projects just so I would have the satisfaction of presenting my arguments. Thank you.

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Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 671

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Supplementary To Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 671

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am hearing somewhat of a contradiction here because the Minister does not believe that he would have the audacity to suggest that a bad decision be changed. The renovation decision, obviously, was a bad decision because now we are going with a capital project. It was an incorrect decision made by a previous government right? But maybe the decision to locate the young offenders facility in Yellowknife instead of Hay River was also a bad decision. How do get input into that? To be honest, I agree with the Minister, the decision was made

by the previous government and a previous Minister and I took exception to the fact that a Nunavut Minister was making decisions on such major long reaching, we were going to live with these decisions for years to come. I was not in a good position to appeal to that Minister and, if it had been a bad decision, I had hoped that it could be revisited with all the compelling arguments.

We are hearing about, again, services available, cost, how it complements the other facility, those arguments can be made for other communities as well. I am hearing somewhat of a contradiction here because a bad decision was changed but the location on the young offenders could not be changed. What I am asking the Minister now is, was there, and I know this sounds repetitive as Mr. Morin may have asked this too, but was there an opportunity for anyone outside of Cabinet and the bureaucracy to make those compelling arguments which would have made good sense? Thirty million dollars is a savings, savings to what? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 672

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Kakfwi .

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Further Return To Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 672

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. One of the things I like about the idea of combining the two facilities is that the young offenders not only get the gymnasium, because under the original plan there was no gymnasium made available to the young offenders. The decision to combine the two also will deliver the two projects within a four year period instead of seven and within the financial commitment made by Cabinet and this Legislature.

As you know, there was a commitment of about $28 million made by this government to be expended over seven years for the adult facility and a little over $6 million was committed for the construction of the young adult facility. We know now that by combining it can be done within the financial commitments made by this government.

I know that there is no time to ask and consult MLAs and communities about where else we could possibly locate this one facility let alone two facilities. We are under a commitment to construct facilities that are urgently required by our young male offenders. We have an order by the fire marshal and we are compelled to provide good, decent, adequate accommodations and facilities for our adult male offenders who are now housed in substandard, inadequate, overcrowded facilities.

Members have taken the time to see for themselves and that it is urgent to do it and I would say that the general public is in support of keeping those facilities here because it makes many things much more possible for the people who are going to be incarcerated in those facilities. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 672

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Supplementary To Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 672

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Minister says that he likes the location of Yellowknife because they can have a gymnasium. There is no law against building gymnasiums in other communities. As a matter of fact, land costs and construction costs, the cost of building a gymnasium is substantially less in Hay River than it is in Yellowknife. But, leave the adult facility here, okay, and I agree it is urgent now to build this facility. It should have been urgent a long time ago, I have seen that facility, it is bad, I have been there. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, I had a person from Yellowknife call me as an MLA asking me how they could get their relative into the Hay River Correctional Facility because they did not want them going into this one here because it was so bad. They were going to have to travel to Hay River to visit this relative, had no problem with that.

Anyway, my question to the Minister is leave the adult facility here, why cannot the issue of where the young offenders facility be revisited and perhaps look at attaching it with a gymnasium to a minimum security facility as opposed to a medium facility such as you have here in Yellowknife? I cannot see any reason why this facility has to go in Yellowknife. Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 672

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Kakfwi .

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Further Return To Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 672

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have asked Cabinet if they were prepared to revisit these decisions and whether or not they were still in support of the original decisions made by Cabinet and FMB last year, and the answer is yes, the Cabinet supports the decisions and the direction that I have taken as a Minister and the decisions that we have made on June 4. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 672

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Supplementary To Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 672

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For clarification then, Mr. Speaker, what the Minister is saying is that the Cabinet is willing to revisit the bad decision made about the renovation and replace it with a new capital project but they are not willing to revisit the bad decision made to locate the young offenders facility here in Yellowknife as opposed to Hay River where it was supposed to be. They are not willing to revisit that regardless of any good and compelling arguments, cost-saving services, all those things which would be good for the inmates, good for the children which are going to be in this facility.

What they are trying to say and what the Minister is confirming to me is that they are absolutely not interested in hearing any of the arguments, that it is a political decision. It is going in Yellowknife. Is that what the Minister is saying? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 672

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Kakfwi .

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Further Return To Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 672

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. What I am saying is that I have looked at the decisions made, and I feel that I support the Cabinet decisions and the decisions by FMB and the decisions made by this Legislature to go ahead with the construction of these facilities together. We have to do it now.

We cannot keep revisiting every decision that is made, because everything else ties to it. For instance, there was a decision made to build a young female offenders facility in Inuvik. Do you want to revisit that too? I have not heard anybody say that yet. Are some things sacrosanct and others are not? Is there a level playing field here?

I come from a small community, much smaller than most of yours, so I take great interest in knowing why decisions are made the way they are, especially in capital projects. But I do know that there is no way that Fort Good Hope could ever rationally ask for a facility like this to be built, because there are no services there, because of the cost, because of the kind of support that inmates would require. In the interests of the inmates themselves, it has to be located in a place like this where it is accessible, where there is access to programs. Also, we need to build these things now.

We cannot keep revisiting it. As I said, I have taken the personal liberty as a Minister to review these decisions, and I have taken a lot of time to do it. I have made a point to travel to Lethbridge, to Calgary, to Red Deer to visit facilities, to see what arguments could be made to support those that were being made by my officials. Very reluctantly, in the latter part of May, I conceded that these were good points that were made. The time to revisit decisions is long gone. We are compelled by government to act and to be decisive about it, and that is exactly what we are doing. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Question 246-13(7): Rationale For Correctional Centre Decision

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 673

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Mr. Erasmus .

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Question 247-13(7): Support For Post-secondary Students

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 673

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are for the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment . It is in relation to his statement today about supporting students attending post-secondary programs. Mr. Speaker, I notice that in the area of increasing the level of support available to each student of student financial assistance dollar wise, the department is working on the details and hopes that changes can be made for the 2000 school year. Mr.

Speaker, I was at a conference in the Metis Nation annual assembly of September of last year where the then Minister of Education talked about a master plan that he had which was basically finalized. They just had to draft the legislation, and we would have had more money in the hands of students for this year. I would like to know what has happened. Why has this not come forward, the increases to student financial assistance? Why has that not come forward for this year? Thank you.

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Question 247-13(7): Support For Post-secondary Students

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 673

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

The Minister of Education, Culture and Employment , Mr. Miltenberger .

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Return To Question 247-13(7): Support For Post-secondary Students

Question 247-13(7): Support For Post-secondary Students

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 673

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the issue and the proposal that the Member talks about is once again being reviewed and some adjustments being made to it and will be brought back to Cabinet, hopefully by the August Cabinet meeting. It is fundamentally the same master plan that the former Minister of Education, Culture and Employment referred to. It is my hope that at that time, upon Cabinet review in August, we will be able to come to a consensus or an agreement on how to move forward. Thank you.

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Return To Question 247-13(7): Support For Post-secondary Students

Question 247-13(7): Support For Post-secondary Students

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 673

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Erasmus .

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Supplementary To Question 247-13(7): Support For Post-secondary Students

Question 247-13(7): Support For Post-secondary Students

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 673

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I could not quite hear what the Minister said. There was a side conversation here. But I think he said he hopes they come to their senses and approve the plan. Does that mean that legislation will be introduced in the next session if we have one in September? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 247-13(7): Support For Post-secondary Students

Question 247-13(7): Support For Post-secondary Students

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 673

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Mr. Miltenberger .

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Further Return To Question 247-13(7): Support For Post-secondary Students

Question 247-13(7): Support For Post-secondary Students

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 673

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I know the issue of census was brought up for accurate numbers with Bill 15 , looking at the number of seats. However, in regard to Cabinet and our senses, we tend, I have discovered, to have our wits about us just about all the time. The hope is that I will be able to report back to this House in September should we have a session, as the Member indicated, with a clear plan of action finally as to what the steps are going to be in regard to student financial assistance. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 247-13(7): Support For Post-secondary Students

Question 247-13(7): Support For Post-secondary Students

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 673

The Speaker

Samuel Gargan

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Erasmus .

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Supplementary To Question 247-13(7): Support For Post-secondary Students

Question 247-13(7): Support For Post-secondary Students

Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 673

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Further along in the Minister's statement he indicates that they are going to establish a Web site to improve details on student financial assistance that students need along with a chat page so students can contact each other. Mr. Speaker, when I was a student, we had a very difficult time getting information on other students from the department. We formed a students union, and we could not even get the names of other students in the same city because of privacy regulations and so forth. I underst