Debates of April 5th, 1994

This is page numbers 993 - 1026 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was chairman .

Topics

Members Present

Item 1: Prayer

Minister Absent From The House

Shortage Of Garbage Cans In Legislative Assembly Building

Proposed Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Visit Of High Commissioner Of India To Yellowknife

Changes To Water And Sewage Subsidy Policy

Proposed Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Proposed Changes To Water And Sewage Subsidy Policy

Assorted Preparation Of Northern Food

Consultation Process For Changes To Water And Sewer Subsidy Policy

Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Department Of Health Review

Return To Written Question 20-12(5): Provisions Of The Mechanics Lien Act As It Pertains To Leased Land

Written Question 24-12(5): Hiv/aids Related Expenditures For Fiscal Years 1993-94 And 1994-95

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Water And Sewage Services Subsidy PolicyTabled Document 65-12(5): Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy Amendments

To Defer Implementation Of The Amendments To The Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Bill 19:

An Act To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act

To Amend Clause 5 Of Bill 19

To Amend Amendment To Clause 5 Of Bill 19

To Amend Clause 6 Of Bill 19

Session Business

Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Bill 19:

An Act To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act

Assent To Bills

Members Present

Mr. Allooloo , Mr. Antoine , Hon. Silas Arngna'naaq , Mr. Arvaluk , Mr. Ballantyne , Hon. Nellie Cournoyea , Mr. Dent , Mr. Gargan , Mr. Koe , Mr. Lewis , Hon. Jeannie Marie-Jewell , Hon. Rebecca Mike , Hon. Don Morin , Hon. Richard Nerysoo , Mr. Ng , Mr. Ningark , Mr. Patterson , Hon. John Pollard , Mr. Pudlat , Mr. Pudluk , Mr. Whitford , Mr. Zoe

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---Prayer

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 993

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Good afternoon. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Member for Hay River , Mr. Pollard .

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Minister's Statement 64-12(5): Minister Absent From The House

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 993

John Pollard

Hay River

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Good afternoon. Madam Speaker, I wish to advise Members that the Honourable Stephen Kakfwi is ill and will be absent from the House today. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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Minister's Statement 64-12(5): Minister Absent From The House

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 993

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for High Arctic , Mr. Pudluk .

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Shortage Of Garbage Cans In Legislative Assembly Building

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 993

Ludy Pudluk

High Arctic

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Today I would like to make a very simple statement. It cost $25 million to build this Legislative Assembly building. Somehow, we were tight for money and the government put in only $10 million. We had to buy chairs, telephones and a lot of equipment for this building. Also, about 200 garbage cans had to be put into this building. Instead of 200 cans, there are only 199. That is all the government can afford. Today we are short one garbage can. Since we've been here, my neighbour here hasn't had a garbage can.

---Laughter

And we have to share one garbage can. Every time he throws paper into my garbage can, he always touches my knee!

---Laughter

A lot of times, he misses the garbage can and there is a pile of papers under my desk. I went to the dump yesterday and I found a bucket.

---Laughter

So, I would like to give it to him.

---Laughter

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

---Applause

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Shortage Of Garbage Cans In Legislative Assembly Building

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 993

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Kitikmeot , Mr. Ng .

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Proposed Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 993

Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

Thank you. I would like to thank the honourable Member for the garbage can.

---Laughter

Madam Speaker, I will be speaking today on the policy change for the water and sewage services subsidy program. The honourable Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs advised this House in a statement last Wednesday that the changes to the policy are a result of an issue raised by the NWT Association of Municipalities, the town of Hay River, the village of Fort Simpson and by our honourable colleague, the Member for Nahendeh , Mr. Antoine . Specifically, the issue is the lack of water and sewage services subsidy coverage for residents in most tax-based municipalities.

The Minister has also advised this House that on February 19, 1993, the Minister of Finance in his budget address announced a plan to adjust the rates for subsidization of commercial users and hamlets. He further advised that his predecessor, the Honourable John Todd , on November 24, 1993 again advised the House that amendments had been approved, subject to a final review by FMB, which would extend coverage to all towns and villages.

The Minister has also stated that ongoing consultation by his department has taken place with municipal councils and their administration on the policy. His statement of last Wednesday suggests that municipalities and Members of this House should have expected the amendments to the water and sewage services subsidy policy as a result of these ongoing consultations and previous statements made in this House, one of them which I mentioned was made over a year ago.

Madam Speaker, I wish to point out that I and other Members of this House consider there has been insignificant, if any, consultation with our municipalities, with businesses, with the Association of Municipalities or with Members on the proposed changes to the water and sewage services policy, which will directly affect all our residents, including private home owners and other, non-commercial water users.

In fact, many of us believe the issue would not have been raised during this session by the Minister if it was not for the fact that ordinary Members raised questions on the policy changes. Madam Speaker, I and other Members will be pursuing this issue today to attempt to receive clarification on the many outstanding issues relating to the proposed amendments to the water and sewage policy. If the government has undertaken a proper consultative process, then they should be aware of the issues and concerns respecting the proposed amendments to the water and sewage services subsidy policy and should be able to respond accordingly. Mahsi cho.

---Applause

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Proposed Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 994

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Item 3, Member's statements. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South , Mr. Whitford .

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Visit Of High Commissioner Of India To Yellowknife

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 994

Tony Whitford

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, yesterday evening, my two colleagues from Yellowknife, Mr. Lewis , Mr. Dent , and I, were guests of a family in town to welcome to the Northwest Territories the High Commissioner of India in Canada, Mr. Prem K. Budhwar. We had an opportunity there to meet with some members of the Indian community of Yellowknife and to meet the High Commissioner and his wife and to welcome them to the north. A few moments ago, I also had the pleasure of touring the High Commissioner and his wife around our Legislative Assembly. I showed them as much of the building as I could.

I also had an opportunity yesterday to describe to them the uniqueness of the form of government that we have, our consensus government, and the make up of the Members and the communities that they represent. It is interesting to note -- and I'll get to the good food in a minute -- that the size of the Northwest Territories was quite impressive to the High Commissioner. I think it is roughly the same size as India and, yet, they have hundreds of millions of people

whereas we have 57,000, in the summer anyway.

We also had an opportunity to sample some Indian food, curries and other very delicious dishes, as my two colleagues will attest to. It was an excellent evening and I certainly wanted to extend a welcome to the High Commissioner to the Northwest Territories. He'll be visiting other parts of our city today. Unfortunately, his tour will not be able to take him into the High Arctic at this time, but on behalf of my colleagues, I extended to him a warm welcome and an invitation to come back and see the rest of the territories when time allows. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

---Applause

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Visit Of High Commissioner Of India To Yellowknife

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 994

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for North Slave , Mr. Zoe .

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Changes To Water And Sewage Subsidy Policy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 994

Henry Zoe

North Slave

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I, too, want to raise the issue of the water and sewer services subsidy policy that my colleague for Kitikmeot has raised this afternoon.

Madam Speaker, the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs announced, last week, changes to the water and sewer subsidy policy. These changes, Madam Speaker, decrease the subsidy, in effect increasing the cost to users.

Madam Speaker, the issue of these increases was discussed by the Association of Municipalities last week, when their executive met here in Yellowknife. This topic was discussed and a number of concerns were raised. It's my understanding, Madam Speaker, the Association of Municipalities is currently canvassing all their member municipalities with regard to these policy changes to see what effect it will have on them.

Some of the concerns that were raised, Madam Speaker, was the lack of consultation with affected communities and municipalities on the specific changes being proposed prior to the announcement of these amendments. Madam Speaker, general discussion of the policy is not sufficient consultation when these types of changes are being proposed. It's important to review the actual changes, and ensure all issues and concerns have been identified.

Madam Speaker, due to the timing of the proposed changes there is also concern about the impact of the new rates on municipalities, which are currently in a deficit position in their water and sewage program. I understand, Madam Speaker, there may be as many as ten municipalities in this position.

Another concern that was raised, Madam Speaker, is the budget of the municipal corporation that we have across the territories. They've already set their 1994-95 budget for this coming year. Madam Speaker, in addition to that is the concern raised with regard to the overall effect it's going to have on the users in their communities.

Madam Speaker, I'm not pleased with the lack of consideration given to municipalities by the Minister.

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Changes To Water And Sewage Subsidy Policy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 994

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Excuse me, Mr. Zoe . Your time has lapsed for Members' statements.

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Changes To Water And Sewage Subsidy Policy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 994

Henry Zoe

North Slave

Madam Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude.

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Changes To Water And Sewage Subsidy Policy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 994

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to continue. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Continue.

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Changes To Water And Sewage Subsidy Policy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 994

Henry Zoe

North Slave

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'm not pleased with the lack of consideration given to municipalities by the Minister in developing and implementing these water and sewer subsidy changes. As my colleague has indicated, we will be following up on this issue during question period. Thank you.

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Changes To Water And Sewage Subsidy Policy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 994

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Inuvik , Mr. Koe .

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Proposed Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 995

Fred Koe

Inuvik

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I, too, rise today to express my concerns about the proposed water and sewer services subsidy policy. We were made aware of this proposed policy last week when the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs gave the Ordinary Members' Caucus a briefing on this issue.

Once we received the information, I immediately sent copies to the town of Inuvik's officials and asked for their opinion. Madam Speaker, to my surprise I found out that only on March 23, 1994 a joint letter from the deputy minister of MACA was sent to the mayor of Inuvik, the president of the Northwest Territories Power Corporation and the chairman of the Inuvik Utilities Planning Committee. This letter included a copy of the amended water and sewage services subsidy policy. Madam Speaker, that was only about 13 days ago. Is this proper and timely consultation?

In Inuvik there's an active committee called the Inuvik Utilidor Planning Committee, and their task is to review and plan for the ongoing usage of the utilidor system in the town. As most of you are aware, almost all of the water and sewage services in Inuvik are piped through the utilidor system. Since they just received this correspondence, they have not had sufficient time to review the impact of these amendments.

Madam Speaker, a quick analysis was done on the new policy, and the water and sewage rates in Inuvik will increase dramatically. For example, we believe that rates to residential users will increase from $55 a month to $123.75 a month. This is an increase of over 125 per cent. We also have reason to believe, based on MACA's assumptions, that the costs to commercial users will more than double in three years. In fact, it could even triple.

Madam Speaker, I and my constituents find this totally unacceptable and would like the Minister and Cabinet to review these amendments before implementing a new policy. Mahsi.

---Applause

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Proposed Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 995

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Iqaluit , Mr. Patterson .

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Proposed Changes To Water And Sewage Subsidy Policy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 995

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Madam Speaker, I, too, rise to express concerns about the new proposed water and sewage subsidy policy. Madam Speaker, this is a budget session and it's in its last few days. This is a time for the government to reveal its intentions as far as taxes and its proposed main estimates for the coming year. We received fairly good news in the Finance Minister 's budget speech, that apart from certain classes of corporate taxes there would be no new taxes.

However, in the dying days of the session, after the Municipal and Community Affairs budget had been presented with not, as I recall, a word about this major new policy change being proposed, we received major changes in water and sewer subsidy policies.

Madam Speaker, this is, as I see it, a tax on private home owners and a tax on small business, which is going to hit people in our smallest communities very hard. I do not know why it was dropped on us in the last few days of the session, seeming as an afterthought. I think the timing is rotten, Madam Speaker.

The consultation process was poor, and before I will agree to see this subsidy imposed there is going to have to be a lot more careful examination of this policy, its implications, its financial implications, its economic implications, and I think a lot more time is going to have to be taken to make sure these radical changes are done properly and in a manner that is sensitive to our fragile, developing economy. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

---Applause

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Proposed Changes To Water And Sewage Subsidy Policy

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 995

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statement. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre , Mr. Lewis .

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Assorted Preparation Of Northern Food

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 995

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

Thanks, Madam Speaker. Following up on Mr. Whitford 's comments just a few moments ago, Madam Speaker. About three years ago, one of our local engineers who works for Ferguson Simek Clark organized, in Yellowknife, a wedding for his sister. He brought her over from India. The groom came from New York. And he organized the wedding in Yellowknife. That was my first introduction to the way in which northern food can be prepared in a way that was very exotic as one of the great gourmet meals I've had in the city.

They used muskox and caribou, simply because in their own customs, their own traditions, people ate goat meat, eggs, sheep and so on. They weren't brought up to eat T-bone steaks, good Alberta beef. So people have learned how to do various things with various kinds of meats. Yesterday, in fact, we had a similar kind of experience when Mr. Rambir Manj, as the chef, prepared a huge meal which included not only muskox, but also various kinds of fish which was prepared with a batter made out of chick-pea flour, of all things.

It was an incredible meal and it shows you how northern food can be something which can be of great appeal, not only to local people, but to people from all over the world. Thank you.

---Applause

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Assorted Preparation Of Northern Food

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 995

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for North Slave , Mr. Zoe .

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Question 448-12(5): Consultation Process For Changes To Water And Sewer Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 995

Henry Zoe

North Slave

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question will be directed to the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs. Last week the Minister announced substantial changes to the water and sewer subsidy policy. This has an impact on municipalities and the hamlets across the territories. Can the Minister outline the consultation undertaken by his department with municipalities and the Association of Municipalities in preparing these changes?

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Question 448-12(5): Consultation Process For Changes To Water And Sewer Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 996

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Mr. Zoe , in accordance with our rules, items are listed on the order paper. The Minister's statement indicating the consultation process used was also placed on the order paper for committee of the whole along with the water and sewer service subsidy policy. Both of these items are on the order paper in committee of the whole. Our rules do not allow us to pose questions to Ministers or the government, particularly when the items are on the order paper for discussion in committee of the whole. With that, I would like to ask if you would attempt to rephrase your question or your question would have to be ruled out of order. The honourable Member for North Slave , Mr. Zoe .

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Question 448-12(5): Consultation Process For Changes To Water And Sewer Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 996

Henry Zoe

North Slave

I want to disagree with you, but I will pass.

---Ruled Out of Order

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Question 448-12(5): Consultation Process For Changes To Water And Sewer Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 996

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Iqaluit , Mr. Patterson .

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Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 996

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Madam Speaker, I am going to try it again. My question is not an issue that is discussed in the papers before the committee of the whole. My question to the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs is as follows. Madam Speaker, many Members of this House have past experience working with hamlets and municipalities. They well know the budget cycle, preparing budgets for the coming fiscal year in late fall, January and February. The Minister is also aware that budgets are set long before the end of March. Why did the Minister wait until the final week of March to announce the changes to the water and sewer subsidy after municipal budgets were well developed and in place? Thank you.

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Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 996

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Arngna'naaq .

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Return To Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 996

Silas Arngna'naaq

Kivallivik

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The announcement that I, as Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, made, was made after the decision had been made by Cabinet to amend the policy, which was early on in the month of March. According to the policy, the requirement is that 90 days be given to the municipalities before rate changes are made. I made the announcement after the decision had been made by Cabinet to amend the policy. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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Return To Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 996

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Patterson .

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Supplementary To Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 996

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I understand the announcement was made after the Cabinet decision, but did the Cabinet decision and did his advice not take into account the fact that municipal budgets are now set and fixed? The new fiscal year has started and it would be very disruptive, difficult, inconvenient and time consuming for municipalities to have to re-configure their entire budgets to implement a policy in that same fiscal year. Was that factor not considered in the timing of the implementation of the policy? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 996

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Arngna'naaq .

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Further Return To Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 996

Silas Arngna'naaq

Kivallivik

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I understand the Member's question; however, the amendments to the policy would not necessarily affect the budgets of the municipalities unless they are unable to collect from water and sewage users in their community. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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Further Return To Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 996

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Patterson .

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Further Return To Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 996

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Madam Speaker, the Minister seems to be implying that there is some doubt about whether municipalities could collect from water and sewage users. If there is doubt about that fact, wouldn't the reasonable thing be to announce the proposed changes, provide information to the municipalities and give a much longer lead time for the implementation of that policy so all these questions can be answered and dealt with well in advance of the target date for implementation of the policy? Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 996

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Mr. Patterson , if I heard your question correctly you said, "If there is doubt..." and then proceeded with your question. That appears to be hypothetical. I would like to ask you to rephrase your question to seek the answer you are looking for. The honourable Member for Iqaluit , Mr. Patterson .

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Supplementary To Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 996

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Since the Minister, in his answer to my previous question, has expressed some doubt about whether municipalities will be able to collect from users of water and sewage services, wouldn't it be wiser to take more time to assure that the collection procedures are going to be adequate and to have a longer lead time than announcing the policy at the beginning of the new fiscal year? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 996

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Arngna'naaq .

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Further Return To Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 996

Silas Arngna'naaq

Kivallivik

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to say we probably did not give proper consultation, as the Members would like to have seen, but I stated in my Minister's statement that municipalities are well

aware of the policy. The inferences in the policy are that the base rate used went up about three or four years ago. The Government of the Northwest Territories has not, up until now, reduced the subsidies to municipalities, nor amended the rates for municipalities in that period of time. Over the past three or four years, the municipalities have enjoyed this policy as it now stands. I think that municipalities were aware of the possibility of an amendment to the policy. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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Further Return To Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Final supplementary, Mr. Patterson .

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Supplementary To Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I believe some of the Members of this House are getting instructions from their municipalities that they might have been aware of policy changes, but they certainly weren't prepared for the swiftness with which these changes were announced. I would like to ask the Minister, since he submitted today in the Assembly that the decision was made in early March, why he waited until the last week of March to inform Members of this House and the public? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mr. Arngna'naaq .

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Further Return To Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

Silas Arngna'naaq

Kivallivik

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I should first of all indicate that this decision that was made by Cabinet was a difficult decision. But, I think it is a policy that has not been amended over a number of years. To answer the question the Member has asked, the announcement was not made about the policy amendment due to printing. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Question 449-12(5): Reason For Delay In Announcing Changes To Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake , Mr. Dent .

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Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health . Madam Speaker, on March 31, the Minister said in committee of the whole, in replying to a question that I asked him, that he would receive a review of the Department of Health later that day. I was just wondering if the Minister could advise if he was referring to the functional review of the Department of Health.

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Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Minister of Health , Mr. Pollard .

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Return To Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

John Pollard

Hay River

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, that is the document to which I was referring. Thank you.

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Return To Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Dent .

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Supplementary To Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Supplementary to the same Minister. Could the Minister advise if he did, in fact, receive the report on March 31, as he said he had expected?

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Supplementary To Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Minister of Health , Mr. Pollard .

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Further Return To Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

John Pollard

Hay River

Madam Speaker, I did. I have a copy of the document right here. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Dent .

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Supplementary To Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Supplementary, again to the same Minister, Madam Speaker. The Minister indicates he has a copy with him, so I suspect that means he has reviewed it. Could the Minister advise if the report recommends significant changes to the department structure?

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Supplementary To Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Minister of Health , Mr. Pollard .

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Further Return To Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

John Pollard

Hay River

Madam Speaker, it does recommend changes to the department structure, yes.

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Further Return To Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Final supplementary, Mr. Dent .

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Supplementary To Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Supplementary to the same Minister. Will the Minister be tabling this report in the House today?

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Supplementary To Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Minister of Health , Mr. Pollard .

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Further Return To Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

John Pollard

Hay River

No, Madam Speaker, I will not.

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Further Return To Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Question 450-12(5): Department Of Health Review

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 997

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Item 6, written questions. Item 7, returns to written questions. Mr. Clerk.

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Return To Written Question 20-12(5): Provisions Of The Mechanics Lien Act As It Pertains To Leased Land

Item 7: Returns To Written Questions

Page 997

Clerk Of The House

Mr. David Hamilton

Madam Speaker, Return to Written Question 20-12(5), asked by Mr. Patterson to the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism

concerning the provisions of the Mechanics Lien Act as it pertains to leased land.

The Business Credit Corporation will comply with the provisions and remedies contained in the Mechanics Lien Act as determined by the Court of Law.

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Return To Written Question 20-12(5): Provisions Of The Mechanics Lien Act As It Pertains To Leased Land

Item 7: Returns To Written Questions

Page 998

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake , Mr. Dent .

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Return To Written Question 20-12(5): Provisions Of The Mechanics Lien Act As It Pertains To Leased Land

Item 7: Returns To Written Questions

Page 998

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I seek unanimous consent to return to written questions.

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Return To Written Question 20-12(5): Provisions Of The Mechanics Lien Act As It Pertains To Leased Land

Item 7: Returns To Written Questions

Page 998

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to return to written questions. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Dent .

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Written Question 24-12(5): Hiv/aids Related Expenditures For Fiscal Years 1993-94 And 1994-95

Revert Back To Item 6: Written Questions

Page 998

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, during committee of the whole's consideration of the Department of Health's budget, the Minister made it sound like there had been a drop of about $150,000 from the fiscal year 1993-94 to 1994-95 in the budget for HIV/AIDS related programs. The Minister verbally provided details about how some of the funds were spent in 1993-94, but I would like to see more detail. Therefore, I have two questions for the Minister.

Would the Minister responsible for the Department of Health please provide this House with a detailed outline of HIV/AIDS related expenditures made in fiscal year 1993-94; and,

Would the Minister provide a detailed outline of HIV/AIDS related expenditures planned for the fiscal year 1994-95. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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Written Question 24-12(5): Hiv/aids Related Expenditures For Fiscal Years 1993-94 And 1994-95

Revert Back To Item 6: Written Questions

Page 998

The Speaker

Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Item 6, written questions. Item 7, returns to written questions. Item 8, replies to opening address. Item 9, petitions. Item 10, reports of standing and special committees. Item 11, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 12, tabling of documents. Item 13, notices of motion. Item 14, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 15, motions. Item 16, first reading of bills. Item 17, second reading of bills. Item 18, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: Bill 19,

An Act to Amend the Tobacco Tax Act ; Minister's Statement 5-12(5), Session Business; Minister's Statement 62-12(5), Water and Sewage Services Subsidy Policy; Tabled Document 1-12(5), Towards an NWT Mineral Strategy; Tabled Document 2-12(5), Building and Learning Strategy; and, Tabled Document 65-12(5), Water and Sewage Services Subsidy Policy Amendments. By the authority vested in me, I will place you in committee of the whole until you are ready to report progress, with Mr. Whitford in the chair. Thank you.

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 998

The Chair

Tony Whitford

The committee will now come to order. What is the wish of the committee? The chair recognizes Mr. Dent .

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 998

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to recommend that the committee first of all consider Minister's Statement 62-12(5), along with Tabled Document 65-12(5), and if those two documents are concluded, that we move on to Bill 19 .

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 998

The Chair

Tony Whitford

Does the committee agree?

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 998

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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Minister's Statement 62-12(5): Water And Sewage Services Subsidy PolicyTabled Document 65-12(5): Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy Amendments

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 998

The Chair

Tony Whitford

The committee agrees. Minister's Statement 62-12(5), Water and Sewage Services Subsidy Policy and Tabled Document 65-12(5). These will be dealt with together. Mr. Zoe .

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Minister's Statement 62-12(5): Water And Sewage Services Subsidy PolicyTabled Document 65-12(5): Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy Amendments

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 998

Henry Zoe

North Slave

Mr. Chairman, before I ask a number of questions, I wonder if the Minister is going to make any comments pertaining to his water and sewage service subsidy policy Minister's statement that was tabled. I also wonder if he's going to bring in any witnesses to accompany him.

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Minister's Statement 62-12(5): Water And Sewage Services Subsidy PolicyTabled Document 65-12(5): Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy Amendments

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 998

The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Zoe . Minister Arngna'naaq , are you prepared to deal with this matter? Are you prepared to bring in witnesses to assist you with this matter?

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Minister's Statement 62-12(5): Water And Sewage Services Subsidy PolicyTabled Document 65-12(5): Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy Amendments

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 998

Silas Arngna'naaq

Kivallivik

Mr. Chairman, thank you. Yes, I would like to make some opening remarks. I would also like some time to ask some staff to come in with me for any detailed questions that may arise.

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Minister's Statement 62-12(5): Water And Sewage Services Subsidy PolicyTabled Document 65-12(5): Water And Sewage Services Subsidy Policy Amendments

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The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Minister Arngna'naaq . Are your witnesses here, or do you just need the time to briefly meet with them after you finish making your opening remarks? Is that correct?

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Silas Arngna'naaq

Kivallivik

That's correct, Mr. Chairman. I have opening remarks I would like to make, but the officials who I'm expecting to come in are not here yet.

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The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Arngna'naaq . We'll entertain the Minister's opening remarks first, then if the witnesses are not here we'll take a short break and allow the witnesses to brief the Minister properly, then be escorted to the

witness table. Minister Arngna'naaq , you may commence with your opening remarks.

Introductory Remarks

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Page 999

Silas Arngna'naaq

Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank the Members of the House for this opportunity to appear before the committee of the whole, and to have a full discussion of the water and sewage service policy amendments and subsidy reductions that I announced in my statement to the House on March 30, 1994.

Historically, the water and sewage service subsidies provided by the government have not been consistent across all the communities. As a result, the changes to the subsidy provisions in the water and sewage services subsidy policy appear rather complex.

Mr. Chairman, I will not repeat the text of my previous statement to the House, however I would like to elaborate on some of the background and context surrounding the changes that were announced.

The water and sewage subsidy program is targeted at three groups of users; residential, non-profit and commercial users. There is no subsidy for government or industrial users.

The policy has been designed around four principles. Firstly, that NWT residents should be entitled to basic water and sewage services to safeguard their health. Secondly, that these services should be provided to residents on an equitable and affordable basis. Thirdly, that municipal governments should exercise authority and responsibility for delivery of water and sewage services. Lastly, that these services should be provided as efficiently as possible.

Mr. Chairman, I must stress, however, that the ability of the government to fulfil these principles is limited by the financial resources that are available.

The most difficult element of this policy to deal with is the determination of what is affordable to consumers and what is not. In the absence of a better standard to rely on, this policy refers to the rate charged to residential customers in the city of Yellowknife for piped water and sewage service to be the guide in the determination of what is an affordable rate to all NWT residential consumers. This approach is consistent with other similar utility subsidy programs of this government.

When the water and sewage services subsidy policy was first introduced in April of 1987, the base rate -- the rate based on cost of service in Yellowknife -- was approximately .20 of a cent per litre. This rate was subsequently revised upward to .22 of a cent per litre in April of 1990. Today, Mr. Chairman, the rate has reached approximately .33 of a cent per litre. Accordingly, the recent announcement of the adjustment in the subsidized rate was necessary to keep up with the increase in the rate.

In addition to the change in the base rate there has been a need to modify the policy to make it more consistent throughout all communities.

When the water and sewage services subsidy policy was first introduced, it only applied to the hamlets, charter communities and settlements. The remaining tax-based municipalities continue to receive only the benefit of a trucked water delivery subsidy.

Local circumstances in each of the tax-based municipalities were such that over time the trucked water delivery subsidy provisions had to be applied differently from one community to the next. Ad hoc arrangements prevailed. What was consistent was that trucked sewage pump out and piped water and sewage service received no subsidy at all in the tax-based municipalities.

In some instances, the lack of subsidy for these services meant that some residents were unable to have their sewage pump out tanks regularly emptied. This contributed to local sanitation problems. In other instances, high user rates were imposed upon government and industrial users in order for the municipality to indirectly subsidize the provision of services to local residents and businesses.

Over the period of 1989 to 1991, the water and sewage services subsidy policy was extended to include the towns of Norman Wells and Iqaluit as part of the turnover of the local water/sewer infrastructure to the municipalities. There was one exception in that only 50 per cent of the commercial consumption would be subsidized,

whereas in hamlets, charter communities and settlements, commercial users were subsidized at a rate of .44 of a cent per litre for 100 per cent of consumption.

Mr. Chairman, the amendments to the policy which I announced on March 30, 1994, will now finally extend the subsidy provisions to those remaining municipalities with the exception of the city of Yellowknife which is funded through a separate block funding agreement.

As my colleague, the Honourable John Pollard , indicated in the House one year ago, the subsidized rate to commercial users in hamlets, charter communities and settlements was to be reduced to 50 per cent of consumption from the present level of 100 per cent. This would make the subsidy arrangements for commercial users in hamlets, charter communities and settlements consistent with the subsidy rules applied in the towns of Norman Wells and Iqaluit. It would also make a contribution to the government's effort to address the overall operating deficit that has been projected.

There has been recognition however, that the pursuit of consistency in the design of this subsidy policy may be at odds with the principle of affordability. As a result, the reduction of the commercial subsidy in hamlets, charter communities and settlements is being implemented very carefully. The subsidy is being reduced only to 90 per cent of consumption at this time, not to the 50 per cent level originally indicated.

Mr. Chairman, this will allow the government time to monitor and assess the impact of this 10 per cent subsidy reduction to commercial users before any further reduction is considered. The 10 per cent subsidy reduction also strengthens the local accountability of councils and their administrations for the efficient provision of water and sewage services.

Should the local economic rate for water and sewage service increase, it will now have a direct impact on the non-subsidized 10 per cent of service to commercial users. If commercial users believe that the service is not provided as efficiently as possible, they are likely to raise their concerns with the local municipal government.

Mr. Chairman, this kind of feedback is essential for local councils to be truly responsible and accountable to their residents for the efficient delivery of municipal services.

At this time, Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank Members for their patience in allowing me the time to elaborate more fully on this matter. I and my officials are prepared to respond to any detailed questions Members may have. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Page 1000

The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Minister Arngna'naaq . The chair recognizes the Member for Kitikmeot , Mr. Ng .

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Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before we get into the short break, can I ask that the Minister provide copies of his opening comments to us?

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The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Ng . Copies will be circulated during the break. I think they are being produced, if they're not, I will assure you they will be available. I have a copy. The Clerk will take care of that, momentarily. At this point, we will take a short break and return at the call of the chair.

---SHORT RECESS

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Page 1000

The Chair

Tony Whitford

We've had time to peruse the opening comments over the break. At this time, it would probably be prudent to have the Minister's witnesses, if he agrees and the committee agrees, escorted to the witness table to assist the Minister in any of the questions that may be sent his way. Mr. Minister, are you prepared to bring your witnesses in?

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Silas Arngna'naaq

Kivallivik

Yes, Mr. Chairman. I would like to bring in some departmental staff.

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The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you. Does the committee agree?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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The Chair

Tony Whitford

Sergeant-at-Arms, will you assist the Minister in bringing the witnesses to the witness table? Thank you, Mr. Minister. Would you be so kind as to introduce your witnesses to the committee?

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Page 1000

Silas Arngna'naaq

Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To my right is Mr. Al Menard, deputy minister of Municipal and Community Affairs and to my left is Mr. Vern Christensen, assistant deputy minister of the department.

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Page 1000

The Chair

Tony Whitford

Welcome, gentlemen. On your desk, you should have both tabled documents and the opening remarks of the Minister on the matter at hand, which is the water and sewage services subsidy policy and the amendments to that. General comments. Mr. Zoe .

General Comments

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Page 1000

Henry Zoe

North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, regarding the Minister's statement that was tabled and that we're discussing right now, I agree with the comments from the Minister and the changes he wants to make. But, the concern I have is the timing of these changes. I recall, Mr. Chairman, that, as the Minister indicated in his statement, this issue was raised by the Association of Municipalities a couple of years ago and it has been an ongoing thing. I recall the issue of tax-based municipalities wanting to get into this policy because the current policy extended only to non-tax-based municipalities.

Particularly, the municipality of Fort Simpson really wanted to get into this policy because of the financial difficulties they were having. As the Minister indicated in his statement, I know other municipalities, including Iqaluit and Inuvik, are included in this policy, also.

The changes that are being proposed are a good thing, but the manner in which they are implementing these changes is what I am having concerns with. Mr. Chairman, I have no objections to the changes being proposed by the department. I know they are trying to make this policy equally distributed across the territories, to include tax-based and non-tax-based municipalities, but the timing is definitely wrong.

Another concern I have is with the lack of consultation, although the Minister indicates in his statement that the issue was raised by the Association of Municipalities and a number of municipalities, themselves, about wanting these changes. I agree that they were consulted because they were the ones who initiated this move. But, ongoing consultation didn't occur. If ongoing consultation would have occurred after the decision was made by Cabinet, then I don't think we would have run into this problem. Unfortunately, the consultation hasn't occurred.

I know the Minister indicates that June 1 is the date for implementing the changes to the policy, but I don't think three months is enough time. If the Association of Municipalities would have been consulted on an ongoing basis, I don't think we would have run into this problem. They would have advised their membership accordingly and the municipalities would have been more prepared to accept these changes. This requires changing their by-laws and so forth. The calculations of all the new rates would have to be communicated to the users. The municipalities would have to undertake all this work.

I strongly disagree with the time period being contemplated by the Minister because I think the municipalities require more time to consult with their hamlet council members and with the users at the community level. Each municipality is different and they consult differently. I just wanted to say that I like the changes I see in front of me. They are not drastic changes like I thought they were, Mr. Chairman. Instead of getting a 100 per cent subsidy from the government, it has been changed. They were originally only thinking of 50 per cent, but they changed their mind to a 90 per cent subsidy.

I would live with that, but I think that consultation should have occurred as soon as the decision was made by the Cabinet. Unfortunately, the department hasn't communicated this back to the municipalities or even to the Association of Municipalities.

Those are the concerns I have, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to ask the Minister if he could outline the consultation undertaken by his department with the municipalities. From what I understand from the municipalities in my riding and by talking to the executive members of the Association of Municipalities, there has not been ongoing consultation pertaining to the water and sewage services subsidy policy. Mahsi.

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The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Zoe . Minister Arngna'naaq .

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Silas Arngna'naaq

Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I would like to apologize once again to the Members for the manner in which the Members found out about the amendments to this policy. However, I believe it is an amendment to a policy which was not equitable to the communities across the territories. The amendments that are being made to this policy make it equitable for all communities.

I think a decision like this, to pick the pockets of the residents of the Northwest Territories, is a very difficult decision that was made. Whenever a government such as ours has to make amendments of this type and decisions like this, it is very difficult. The timing of such an amendment is difficult in that there is really no right time. There was to be an announcement made by myself in the form of a Minister's statement. However, the statement didn't come through early enough to be made here in the House. I apologize for that.

That statement was not made earlier in the House, but it still is an amendment that had to be made to make all communities equal in the subsidization for this program.

As for the consultation, it is something that has been mentioned in the annual general meetings of the Association of Municipalities. I think that the department is trying every way to make it smoother for communities to be able to accept this amendment to the policy. The departmental officials in the regions are working with each individual community to try to ease this policy. For the consultation part of it, with the policy having been introduced in 1987, it started out to be a policy which was using Yellowknife as a base rate.

However, they didn't go far enough with the policy to make it equitable amongst all communities in the territories. I understand that communities are aware of this policy and the manner in which it is run.

I have also indicated that the water and sewage rates in the city of Yellowknife, which are used as a base, have increased since the policy was introduced in 1987. I also understand that the policy was amended in 1990, which affected some municipalities. So it has been four years, Mr. Chairman, since this policy has been amended. The amendments being made at this time are making it equal for all municipalities in the Northwest Territories. I think it is a roundabout way of saying there has been consultation, but for any more details on the consultation, I would have to ask Mr. Menard to elaborate. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. The honourable Member for North Slave , Mr. Zoe .

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Henry Zoe

North Slave

Thank you. Mr. Chairman, in my view, there hasn't been ongoing consultation pertaining to this particular policy. It is my understanding that the whole issue surrounding this policy was raised, as you indicated, at the annual general meeting of the Association of Municipalities. They agreed that there should be some changes to incorporate tax-based municipalities in this policy to help out municipalities such as Fort Simpson, et cetera. I know it was communicated in recommendation form to MACA. I know MACA has been working on these changes for the last few years.

I am saying there was no ongoing consultation, particularly with the Association of Municipalities, as to the status of where this policy was at. If there had been proper consultation, then we wouldn't be here discussing your Minister's statement regarding this policy. That is where the policy comes in.

It is my understanding if there was ongoing consultation, we wouldn't have this problem. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. It is my understanding that even the draft recommended policy that went to Cabinet was never discussed with the Association of Municipalities to get their views. Nobody said here is what we are planning to recommend to Cabinet, can we get your views on this before it goes to Cabinet. Then the association would have done their homework and I am sure they would have agreed with it because they initiated this move to make changes in this policy. So I would assume the association would have agreed with the department. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.

That is where I see the problem. It was a breakdown in communication. Even after the decision was made, the policy changes were not communicated to the Association of Municipalities. I brought it to their attention a week ago. I said, are you guys aware of these changes? They weren't aware of them. I was fortunate enough that they just happened to have their executive meeting in Yellowknife last week. I asked them to discuss these changes and they raised many concerns about them, as I indicated in my Member's statement. They said there was no ongoing consultation, although they began this whole initiative.

Secondly, they said, why are they doing this to us after we set our budget and went through that whole process? Of all departments, MACA knows the process that municipalities have to go through. There are some questions now with the municipalities that are in a deficit situation. I recall about ten municipalities that are in a deficit position in their water and sewer program. They have a recovery plan. If we go ahead with these changes, we are no longer giving them a 100 per cent subsidy, we will only be giving them a 90 per cent subsidy. That is going to affect their recovery plan. That is another additional concern they have raised.

I am just saying, Mr. Chairman, that overall I agree with these changes. I am sure the Association of Municipalities and their membership would agree with these changes the Minister is bringing forward. But it is the lack of consultation by the department that is the problem. Now they are saying we want to implement this by June 1. I am trying to suggest, by raising these concerns, that June 1 is not the right date.

I would suggest strongly to move the implementation date to August 1 or September 1, so municipalities can assess the impact on their own communities and how they are going to consult with the users in their communities. The rates in these municipalities are all going to vary, as my colleague from Inuvik pointed out, from $55 to $123. That's over a 50 per cent increase. I'm sure the users aren't going to be too happy in Inuvik. The municipalities, themselves, have to determine the best method to communicate to their community members. That's where the problem is.

I'm strongly suggesting to the Minister, and his colleagues on the other side of the House, that they reconsider the implementation date of this policy.

Mr. Chairman, those are the concerns I have about this policy. From my understanding, this lack of consultation is what is causing the problem, it is not the meat of the policy. As the Minister said, now it is going to be equitably distributed across the territories. I'm sure everyone agrees with it, even the Association of Municipalities agrees with it. But, because we didn't have ongoing consultation, that is where the problem lies. To satisfy the municipalities, Mr. Chairman, I'm suggesting that the Minister and the Cabinet reconsider the implementation date and to move back and give them some breathing room.

All the communities are going to be affected. I wonder if the Minister can comment on the suggestion I'm making? Thank you.

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Page 1002

The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Zoe . At this point time, I would like to draw to your attention to His Worship Harry Aknaviaak from Cambridge Bay, who is in the gallery.

---Applause

You know of whom I speak. Welcome to the Legislative Assembly. Kelvin, you can come back down now.

---Laughter

Thank you, Mr. Zoe . Mr. Minister.

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Silas Arngna'naaq

Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With regard to ongoing consultation, this is something that has been discussed well before my time, so I would have to refer that to Mr. Menard or Mr. Christensen. The policy, which has been in existence since 1987, gives a 90 day time period to inform municipalities, which I understand is sufficient time for municipalities to change their by-laws to come in line with any amendments that may be made to the policy.

With regard to the municipality of Inuvik, I understand that is an anomaly and it is being dealt with, I believe, in a manner in which the residents of Inuvik should be able to handle. Over the period of time that this policy has existed, the community has enjoyed the rates they have been paying for water and sewage services. To the suggestion the Member is making, I would have to bring that to Cabinet for their consideration.

I would like to ask Mr. Menard to respond to concerns about ongoing consultation.

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The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Menard.

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Menard

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Even though the executive of the Association of Municipalities indicated to the Member that there was no ongoing consultation, we have been dealing with some municipalities on a daily basis for two years now. We have been making them aware of the changes that are coming about. Some of them have been happy to receive the news and some of them have not been so happy. It depends who they are. I think I spent more time talking to the mayor and the administrator in Fort Simpson than I have ever talked to anyone in my life. I have talked to them every day, and they are anxious to get in line with the policy.

The only thing we could not consult with them about was the rate change, itself, because we didn't know what Cabinet was going to approve. So, that was not done. As far as the association, the executive director works right in our building and I talk to her on a daily basis. She has been well-aware, not officially in writing, but on a verbal basis, of exactly where we have been with the policy.

Regarding hamlets, I've personally dealt with the mayor of Rae-Edzo, the mayor in Rankin Inlet, a lot of mayors. They've been waiting for the policy changes and are aware of them. They just don't know what the rate is. We only got official approval towards the end of March. In fact, I broke protocol by advising some municipalities of it because they were anxious to hear about it, even before the Minister had a chance to announce it. That wasn't the right thing for me to do, of course, but I did it to try to help them out so we could review the impact of the policy amendments on their municipalities.

We know we need at least 90 days before we can implement the policy, to give the users a chance to adjust to the rates, to rationalize them and to ensure they watch any hardship cases that might arise. We don't know all the impacts this will have because every tax-based municipality is different. Some hamlets are different too. We are hoping during the next few months that we will be consulting with them on a detailed basis, knowing what the rates are.

We have been consulting on an ongoing basis for the last two years, not in writing or anything like that, but unofficially. As we see each other -- and we see each other often -- the superintendents have been preparing the communities for changes, the same way as they advise us when they have to change their rates. We consult, sometimes, a year in advance. Some of the reasons some of them are in deficit situations is because they have to change their rates. There have been ongoing discussions about that.

It sometimes seems to be easier for them to change their rates when they have to increase them than when they have to decrease them because they are collecting too much revenue and they have too large a surplus.

As far as timing, we'll have to go back to Cabinet to get permission because we are running out of time for the 90 days, as required. We probably are going to have to ask permission to push the date back because we need the time for consultation about the effects in each community.

As far as the deficits in each community, we have dealt with some of the ten communities that are in a deficit position. They know what they have to do about it and the by-laws have already been changed. The consultation did take place. I might also add that we did consult with some MLAs as well. In fact, Mr. Antoine was in touch with us a few times and we kept him advised of how things were coming along, but, again, we didn't know about the exact rates. If we delayed it too much across the board, then it might cause some hardship for some municipalities like Fort Simpson, because they want to get on it as soon as possible, and the same thing with Hay River.

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Page 1003

The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Menard. The chair continues to recognize Mr. Zoe .

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Henry Zoe

North Slave

Mr. Chairman, that's the point I'm trying to make. If there was ongoing consultation, if the association was aware about the recommendation that you brought forward to the Executive, if they had known about it ahead of time, they would have had ample time to consult their membership. They could have said here are the ball park rate changes the department is looking at, but they required Cabinet approval and this is what we are going to recommend. If the department would have done that, then we wouldn't have this problem now with consultation.

Right now, because there was nothing official, and all of the sudden it was approved, there is a problem. That is what I mean by ongoing consultation. If they were aware of the proposed rates that the department was recommending to Cabinet, they could have done their homework. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. That is why we are running into this problem. Now everyone is scrambling to see what kind of effect it will have on them.

The deputy minister indicated that he advised the tax-based municipalities -- two or three of them -- of the initiative of this policy, but the non-tax-based municipalities haven't been advised yet. They are anxious to see what impact it will have on them. I am saying because there was a lack of consultation, the time frame of 90 days is not long enough. I think we require a longer period. I am suggesting to the Minister and to his Cabinet colleagues that maybe we should implement this policy in August or September 1. That much time is definitely required.

Some of the municipalities are eager to get into this policy. They have been waiting for a long time. I know MACA has been working with them on a special case basis on their water and sewer, So I don't think it will have a drastic impact on them by not implementing the policy on June 1. I am sure they can wait for another three months. Thank you.

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The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Zoe . Minister Arngna'naaq .

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Silas Arngna'naaq

Kivallivik

Mr. Chairman, I would ask Mr. Menard to respond to this.

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The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you. Mr. Menard.

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Menard

In consultation, the Member is right. We have not yet advised the hamlets, other than the fact that they know something is coming. We are just getting the letters ready this week for the Minister to sign. We waited for discussions in the House before we did that. Out of protocol, I advised the tax-based municipalities. We have been dealing with the Association of Municipalities, at least at the bureaucratic level, on an ongoing basis. We have been dealing with Inuvik for two years with the joint committee on the turnover of the utilidor, which affected the rate and whether they should have metering or not.

We know there will be different swings in Inuvik. We are anxious to sit down with them and look at these things to see if some of them are too onerous on people or not. It depends on use. The more they use, the more they will have to pay. We hope to encourage conservation and everyone will take the responsibility for paying for the services. I feel there was adequate consultation, from the department's point of view. At least as much as we could, without knowing

what the final decision would be on the rates. That is my feeling. Thank you.

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Page 1003

The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Menard. General comments. The chair recognizes Mr. Ningark and Mr. Patterson .

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Page 1003

John Ningark

Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, according to the information I have, there are about 13 municipalities that are experiencing accumulated deficit with water and sewage delivery. For the fiscal year ending March, 1999, if the initiative goes ahead, more burden will be placed on these communities. I understand Mr. Menard indicated just now that we have to conserve water. I think it is the understanding of each and every Member of the House, perhaps the population of the NWT, that we have more water in this land than anywhere else in the world.

In fact, every year the snow falls and subsequently melts in the spring. Sometimes it is very hard not to get your feet wet when you are walking around your community or on the land that we so love, Mr. Chairman. Given what I have said, can the Minister identify communities in all parts of the NWT where the water supply is such an issue and concern that conservation is crucial? Thank you.

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The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Ningark . Minister Arngna'naaq .

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Silas Arngna'naaq

Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think there has been much discussion in this Legislative Assembly about the transferring of various programs to communities. I think with the transfer of these programs comes accountability and responsibility, which I believe this government has been working with since its inception. The program being transferred to communities makes the municipalities more accountable for the way in which they are delivering the water and sewage program.

They will begin to realize what the department has been indicating to them for a period of time, which is to say that they should be delivering a water and sewage program in an efficient manner. Part of the reason the program is considered a closed program is so that users of this program do not pay more to subsidize other programs that other municipalities may have.

With regard to the particular question the Member is asking, I would again have to defer to Mr. Menard because I don't know if there are any communities that have conservation difficulties.

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The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Arngna'naaq . Mr. Menard.

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Menard

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't think the availability of water is the issue. There is no place in the Northwest Territories that doesn't have water available to it in any amount. It is the producing and delivering of it that is costly. That is where conservation comes in. If people conserve a bit, they pay less. Right now, it is the government that is taking the burden of the cost. Other than Nahanni Butte, I think every community in the north has an ample supply of water. It is just the varying cost of delivering it and making it available to home owners.

That's the area we are looking at for conservation because there is quite a bit of wastage, particularly when people don't pay very much for it. We are trying to grapple with that issue as well. That's why I

mentioned conservation. It's the cost of delivering it that's the issue, not the availability of it.

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1004

The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you. The honourable Member for Natilikmiot , Mr. Ningark .

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Page 1004

John Ningark

Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, one of the problems we've often talked about in this particular jurisdiction is overcrowding in social housing. One of the reasons some tenants tend to consume more water than expected by the municipality is because of overcrowding. I wonder if the honourable Minister has considered the overcrowding problem when they introduced these changes to the water and sewage services subsidy policy? Thank you.

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The Chair

Tony Whitford

Mr. Minister.

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Silas Arngna'naaq

Kivallivik

Mr. Chairman, I don't believe this policy will affect residents who are in social housing. It is only those who are in private residential houses that this policy would affect.

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The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Ningark . That's it? Then, I'll refer to Mr. Patterson , Member for Iqaluit .

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Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, on page five of the Minister's remarks today, he refers to the policy changes making a contribution to the government's effort to address the overall operating deficit. I would like to ask what is the projected net financial effect of this policy for the coming fiscal year? Thank you.

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The Chair

Tony Whitford

Thank you, Member for Iqaluit . Minister Arngna'naaq .

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Silas Arngna'naaq

Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With the way the present policy is being amended, for June 1, 1994, I believe the impact to the government will be in the neighbourhood of about $201,000.

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Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Patterson .

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Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, I take it that with 9 months at $201,000, with 12 months, it would be a little bit more. Does the Minister have a breakdown of the source of these additional revenues that would accrue to the Government of the Northwest Territories, by community? Thank you.

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Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Patterson . Mr. Arngna'naaq .

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