Debates of March 24th, 2010

This is page numbers 4719 - 4756 of the Hansard for the 16th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was project .

Topics

Oral Questions

Members Present

Prayer

Minister’s Statement 16-16(5): Supplementary Health Benefits

2010 Arctic Winter Games

Deh Cho Bridge Project

Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Escort Eligibility Under The GNWT Medical Travel Policy

Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Beaufort-Delta Spring Carnivals

5th Annual Aboriginal Hand Game Tournament

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Community Recreational Trail System Development

Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Reconstruction And Resurfacing Of Highway No. 1

Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Territorial Bridge Infrastructure Requirements

Escort Eligibility Under The GNWT Medical Travel Policy

Reconstruction And Resurfacing Of Dempster Highway

Roadside Erosion Near Enterprise

NWT Power Corporation Billing And Disconnection Policies

Wait Times To See Medical Specialists In The NWT

NWT Power Corporation Billing And Disconnection Policies

Evaluation Of Sites For Construction Of New Hospital In Hay River

Pellet Mill In Hay River

Return To Written Question 3-16(5): Addiction Treatment Options Available In The NWT

Tabled Document 12-16(5): Letter From Imperial Oil To The National Energy Board On The Mackenzie Gas Project Hearing, March 15, 2010 Tabled Document 13-16(5): Letter From Lawson Lundell To The National Energy Board On The Mackenzie Gas Project Hearing, March 22, 2010

Tabled Document 14-16(5): Letter From Hay River Seniors’ Society To Minister Lee On Supplementary Health Benefits, March 19, 2010

Tabled Document 15-16(5):

Summary Of Members’ Absences For The Period February 27, 2010 To March 22, 2010

Bill 6: Supplementary Appropriation Act (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 2, 2010-2011

Request For Special Audit By The Auditor General Of Canada On The Deh Cho Bridge Project

Recorded Vote

Bill 6: Supplementary Appropriation Act (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 2, 2010-2011

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Report of Committee of the Whole

Orders of the Day

The House met at 1:37 p.m.

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---Prayer

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Prayer

Prayer

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Good afternoon, colleagues. Welcome back to the Chamber. Item 2, Ministers’ statements. The honourable Minister of Health and Social Services , Ms. Lee .

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Minister’s Statement 16-16(5): Supplementary Health Benefits

Ministers’ Statements

Range Lake

Sandy Lee

Minister of Health and Social Services

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as we begin our public meetings on supplementary health benefits, I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate the substance of the changes being proposed.

Mr. Speaker, we want to improve “ACCESS” to the program. Our proposed changes will expand access to a group of people in our population who are currently shut out or have limited access. This will ensure that access to supplementary health benefits is no longer determined by a specific condition or by age but by income level. This is the accepted practice across the country. The change will also mean that high income earners, people who can afford to contribute, will be asked to pay a percentage of the cost of the benefits.

Mr. Speaker, depending on the final determination of the income threshold, supplementary health benefits could be provided to between 1,700 and 2,300 people, primarily children, who currently have limited or no access. This would also mean we will no longer have to tolerate a situation where a single parent making $50,000 a year, with no employer benefits, has to go without dental benefits for their children while a single person, with no dependents, making $190,000 a year with third-party insurance, still get their dental coverage under this program. The existing program is exclusive, unfair and inequitable and it is time that we rectify this situation.

Mr. Speaker, the response to our public discussion paper has been highly productive. Our residents generally support the direction of this proposal but they would like to know how the changes would

impact them personally. Therefore, we will include in our public discussions going forward two options. The starting thresholds of $30,000 net income or $50,000 net income as defined by line 236 on the federal income tax form.

The number of people who will be covered at 100 percent and those who would have to pay a co-payment varies depending on net income and number of dependents. Moreover, unlike the previous proposal, benefits will not be eliminated when the income threshold is reached. Instead, residents will be asked to contribute a co-payment to their supplementary health benefit coverage. The co-payment will start at 20 percent and increase in 5 percent increments every 20,000 as net income increases.

This means a single person or couples who make $190,000 net income would still have access to the benefits, albeit with a co-payment, making this program one of the most robust in the country. In fact, Mr. Speaker, under the proposed changes, 55 to 75 percent of our non-aboriginal population will have 100 percent coverage in Supplementary Health Benefits Program. The remaining 25 to 45 percent of the population would pay a co-payment depending on their income level.

Mr. Speaker, this is not about reducing the basket of benefits. The program will continue to cover prescribed vision care, dental benefits and prescription drugs and supplies.

During last session, Members of this House passed a unanimous motion calling on the government to come up with an anti-poverty strategy. The changes being proposed under supplementary health benefits are a step forward in poverty reduction and addressing the cost of living issue in our Territory.

Mr. Speaker, the Supplementary Health Benefits Program has been reviewed for over 10 years because so many of our residents do not have full access to it. Let me be clear: doing nothing is not an option nor is it in the public interest. Expanding access without rectifying the inequity and unfairness in the program may be a quick fix and perhaps the easiest action to take, but it is not a good public policy. The changes proposed are going in the right direction in the most inclusive, fair and equitable manner.

Mr. Speaker, I urge everyone to seek out the information they need from reliable sources and to use the formal channels that have been provided for feedback. I would also urge everyone to attend public meetings on the proposed changes, which started yesterday in Fort Simpson and which will continue on to Hay River, Fort Smith, Norman Wells, Inuvik and Yellowknife.

Mr. Speaker, it is imperative that we make these changes so that those who need this program will have access to them as soon as possible and not have to wait another 10 years of studying, reviewing and talking about them.

Mr. Speaker, with constructive and productive public discussion, this process will be able to conclude this spring. In coming weeks I look forward to continue our work with all Members of this House and the standing committee to implement the changes necessary to ensure this program is available to those who need it the most, regardless of specific conditions or age. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Minister’s Statement 16-16(5): Supplementary Health Benefits

Ministers’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Lee . Item 3, Members’ statements. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , Mr. Krutko .

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2010 Arctic Winter Games

Members’ Statements

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Arctic Winter Games were held in Grande Prairie, Alberta, March 6th to the 14th , in

which many athletes took part. I would like to mention the athletes in the Mackenzie Delta riding who came home with a record number of ulus.

The representation of the games from my region was 39 individuals who represent the region. Mr. Speaker, they took

part in dog mushing, snowshoeing, snowshoe biathlon, Dene games, female hockey, cultural events, volleyball, indoor soccer and cross-country skiing. I would like to congratulate each and every one of these athletes and all the athletes in the Northwest Territories that took

part in the Arctic Winter Games. They demonstrate their commitment and also fair play.

Mr. Speaker, the Arctic Winter Games gives our athletes in small communities an opportunity to participate at the regional, territorial and national level and represent the Territory. The success that is given to our athletes and, more importantly, our communities, is not only the success of the individual but the communities they come from. With the commitment, dedication, community volunteers, family members and the many hours of volunteers it takes to assist our athletes to get to these games, I would like to thank each and every one of the individuals who took the time to support

our athletes and the residents of the communities who assisted to ensure our athletes were able to take

part in these games.

Mr. Speaker, at this time I would like to congratulate all of the athletes from the Mackenzie Delta who came home with gold, silver and bronze ulus and wish them well as they move into their future years of competition. Mahsi.

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2010 Arctic Winter Games

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . The honourable Member for Sahtu , Mr. Yakeleya .

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Deh Cho Bridge Project

Members’ Statements

Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. People in the Northwest Territories have been dreaming about building a bridge over the Mackenzie River for the last 50 years. A bridge will provide year-round, reliable access to the North Slave and eventually down the Mackenzie Valley. Toll fees will provide revenues.

Every week, all year round, Buffalo Airways flies loads of freight, fresh food and mail up to the communities in the Sahtu from the Yellowknife Airport. All of that will cross the new bridge, so I know the new bridge will be good for the Sahtu.

In a year and a half we have fulfilled the dream of having a bridge. However, this is a bridge over troubled waters. The bridge has been delayed due to the need for a redesign of a portion of the bridge’s superstructure. The original construction contractor pulled out. The project management team was removed. Delays cost money and to cover the costs we are forced to pass a supplementary appropriation bill of $15 million. Given the delay, the lenders called the loan provided to the Deh Cho Bridge Corporation. The list goes on.

What have we learned from this experience? Have we learned that there must be caution when undertaking a public/private partnership? It seems that when things go sideways, always the GNWT alone is left accountable. Have we learned that it may not be wise to go forward with an innovative superstructure when a more economical, tested and true design exists? The project management team and engineering firm should be selected by a competitive process rather than sole sourced.

We must improve policies and practices to ensure that we do better in the future. In order to learn from this experience, I will be supporting a motion to have the Auditor General of Canada review the Deh Cho Bridge Project. What we learn should be reflected in the revision to the government’s financial and procurement policies or a new P3 policy.

All said and done, the Deh Cho Bridge is going to be a great achievement. It will be a bridge over troubled waters right now, but we will sort this out.

This generation and future generations will benefit from this bridge. It will open up the Mackenzie Valley to reduce the cost of living and to allow for responsible development.

We need to get going. Let’s get on with it and let’s build this bridge.

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Deh Cho Bridge Project

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya . The honourable Member for Great Slave , Mr. Abernethy .

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday I made a Member’s statement with respect to the Taltson expansion and the importance of making decisions on a territorial resource that is in or for the public good. I followed that statement up with questions to the Premier and encouraged him to put the interests of the people of the Northwest Territories at the forefront of Cabinet decision-making on this project.

I strongly encouraged the Premier to work with Deze in the best interest of the people and, as a stakeholder, encourage them to consider alternate routes where long-term benefits are greater for the people. The Premier ’s response, as presented in yesterday’s unedited Hansard, was, “alternate routes have been looked at by the Hydro Corporation and the Power Corporation.” He went further and indicated that, based on those reviews, “this project will not work. We will not be able to sell energy to the mines for an acceptable rate.

They will not sign power purchase agreements for a cost higher than they’re able to develop it for in today’s environment.” This is a rather defeatist attitude and suggests that the only opportunity we have to make this work is to rely on the existing diamond mines.

I suggest that there are other opportunities. There are other mining development possibilities, and with access to local and reasonably priced power in the North Slave Geological Province we may find greater amounts of exploration and development, which is good for the entire Northwest Territories.

Further, the Premier must not fail to consider the advantages of linking existing systems by way of grids; grids which would open the possibility for exploration and development in areas which could access power from resources such as Snare Hydro where their current capacity is completely consumed by Yellowknife. This project has huge potential for all of the Northwest Territories. It must not be given away for short-term gain.

Related, I was concerned that the Premier discussed only one alternate route. Specifically, he said, according to yesterday’s Hansard, “Adding approximately $100 million-plus to the project by going around the west side of the lake would put that project in a place where it is uneconomical and

we have no project.” There are other alternatives. Yes, the western route is the most expensive, but other routes like the trans-island route, which has a projected cost of base plus $40 million, are not that much more and put power within reach of Yellowknife, the diamond mines, and other mining opportunities such as Avalon’s rare earth metal project north of Great Slave Lake. This cannot be ignored.

Regardless, once we have signed supp No. 2 later this week, the GNWT will have no room in its borrowing limit and this whole thing can’t go ahead unless a reasonable and responsible third-party partner is found. I encourage the Premier to refocus this project to find a third-party partner who, in addition to understanding the value of making a profit, understands the social importance.

I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

---Unanimous consent granted.

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

I encourage the Premier to refocus this project and find a third-party partner who, in addition to understanding the value of making a profit, understands the social importance of this project and that the people of the Northwest Territories who are stakeholders and owners of the Northwest Territories Power Corporation and the NWT Hydro Corporation, and that their desires and wishes must be heard and addressed as the Taltson expansion moves forward.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Later today I will be asking the Premier some questions based on my Member’s statement. Thank you.

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy . The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe , Mr. Beaulieu .

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Mr. Speaker, today I weigh in on the proposed Deze project. I realize we are just in the process of approving the Deh Cho Bridge costs by taking over the debt as the GNWT. Furthermore, the revenues that flow from the Deh Cho Bridge are largely predicated on the fuel haul to the diamond mines. Meanwhile, we are contemplating the Deze proposal, which will reduce the need for that fuel in those same mines. In addition to that, Mr. Speaker, I understand the route favoured by Deze is not acceptable to the Lutselk'e First Nations.

Mr. Speaker, I support the expansion of Taltson in order to provide more efficient clean energy to the diamond industry. However, Mr. Speaker, we need to look beyond just the diamond industry. Deze needs to look at an alternative route and they must look at the route that takes long-term users into

consideration. Mr. Speaker, a route that considers Avalon and the city of Yellowknife could allow the supply of hydro power through the Snare Hydro to the diamond mines by tying the Taltson into the Snare River grid.

Mr. Speaker, I’m no expert in this area, but I feel that Deze must give up on the route that goes through the Lutselk'e territory and look at alternatives as soon as possible. I firmly believe that the extra costs of the alternative route that I speak of will have a greater cost recovery potential in the long term. I believe that rare earths and the city of Yellowknife will be around long after the diamond industry runs their course.

Meanwhile, Mr. Speaker, when considering this proposal we must need to ensure that we act responsibly and act with due diligence and strive to take into account properly all of the various interests of all parties affected by this project and only move forward in a fair, open and transparent process. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu . The honourable Member for Weledeh , Mr. Bromley .

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, earlier this month I made a statement on the Deze Corporation’s Taltson Hydro development and transmission routing to the diamond mines, suggesting that we might get far greater benefits from our $13-plus million investment by giving straightforward consideration to the public good.

Environmentally and socially sound economic development remains a priority of this government, and I believe this project needs a critical look to ensure that our public and our regional economies are well served by the work. I would like to see us sharpen our pencils and come up with new estimates of alternative routings to the current Reliance proposal, estimates that should be developed as if we really mean it.

Along with these estimates we need an analysis of what the broader range of benefits are that can accrue from the alternative routings. What is the value of finally having the Taltson and Snare grids linked into one system that runs through mineral rich territory, that serve larger communities currently depending to some degree on diesel power and which would allow the diamond mines to be serviced from Snare Hydro? What is the value to project proponents of adding very long-term customers at current or competitive rates?

In the NWT Hydro Strategy our first strategic goals are promoting economic development and diversification and aboriginal partnerships that serve communities and regional economic benefits. To my mind, linking our hydro systems into one

grid, a grid that focuses on communities and their environs is best served by routing of the Taltson transmission line that achieves that linkage. This is not to say that the system would not serve the diamond mines, but rather that it must also serve our larger goals and thus strive for long-term public benefits rather than just large and immediate profits for our private partners.

In our Hydro Strategy we state that our first underlying socio-economic goal for residents is to stabilize and reduce over time the energy component of the high cost of living. Focusing on alternative routing that actually links existing grids and complements community energy systems will directly serve this goal.

Mr. Speaker, on March 3rd , in response to my

questions, the Premier said, from unedited Hansard, “If we want to, as a government, go alternate routes, then let’s take a look at that.”

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take the Premier up on his offer and go forward with him to take a critical look at the cost and benefits of alternative routing to the Taltson transmission line.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

---Unanimous consent granted.

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

I would like to take the Premier up on that offer and just to be clear, because the Premier suggested earlier that I do not put enough weight and bearing on our aboriginal partners, perhaps as we have with the Deh Cho Bridge project, I insist that we include our aboriginal partners on this as we go forward, they ensuring financial return and we ensuring pubic benefit. Mahsi.

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bromley . The honourable Member for Kam Lake , Mr. Ramsay .

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I would like to join in on voicing my concern over how the government is handling the Taltson Hydroelectric Expansion Project. Mr. Speaker, this government is currently in the middle of dealing with the $181 million Deh Cho Bridge saga. I would like to think that somewhere along the line Cabinet has learned some valuable lessons when it comes to letting others do our bidding for us we end up holding the bag.

Mr. Speaker, it is little doubt that our participation in the bridge project was ill conceived and it will go down in history as being one of the biggest government blunders of all time.

Mr. Speaker, that leads me back to the Taltson Hydroelectric Expansion Project. I have always supported the expansion of the Taltson River Hydro

Project since becoming a Member of this Assembly in 2003 and today I still support the expansion. What I want to take issue with today is our government’s involvement in the expansion project and the lack of any clear progress being made on routing and power purchase agreements with the existing mines in the Slave Geological Province.

I agree with what some of my colleagues are saying about the routing. Whose interest are we serving when the proposed route goes directly to the diamond mines? Only the shareholders. It will not be in the public’s best interest to pursue this route. My belief is the routing should be or should try to achieve a social component. It should take a route most beneficial to our residents, not just to the shareholders. As a government, we cannot continue to overlook the future infrastructure needs of our residents.

Mr. Speaker, decisions were made in haste on the Deh Cho Bridge. We had a government that committed to a $165 million deal just days before the last election. My fear is, Mr. Speaker, that we have not learned from this mistake.

Like I said yesterday, if we are going to do something, we have to make sure that we are going to do it right. I believe we need to take a look at all of our options in the routing. I am left wondering why all of the focus of Deze and the Hydro Corporation seems to be on the existing mines. Should they not be doing everything in their power to accommodate potential other mineral projects like Avalon’s Nechalacho project that has the potential of being in place for well over 100 years? We have to base decision-making on concrete cost-risk-benefit analysis.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

---Unanimous consent granted.

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Unlike the Deh Cho Bridge, we have to base decision-making on concrete cost-benefit analysis that will completely take into account all of the environmental, social and economic factors not only for the shareholders but for everyone who lives here in the Northwest Territories. I will have questions for the Premier at the appropriate time. Thank you.

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay . The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre , Mr. Hawkins .

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Like my colleagues today, I would like to chime into the Deze Taltson expansion issue. Mr. Speaker, I feel very strongly that any hydro expansion needs to be based on environmental and economic opportunities. I believe strongly, as well, that this

shouldn’t continue to be a direct initiative pursued by our Legislature.

Mr. Speaker, the risk at this time is solely on the shoulders of the GNWT. As I understand it, the cash to date has only come from the GNWT pockets. This Legislature has found ways to waive the PUB review process and with our one-third partnership, I often wonder what’s left for the other two-thirds partnerships to contribute other than to wait for their own dividends.

The question of public accountability continues to be made about who Deze is truly accountable to. With a one-third partnership of Northerners being represented through this House, do we really have accountability? This raises the issue of the lack of accountability for public interests, because it is certainly not seen there.

The business case has been based solely on the fact that the diamond mines will be there to support this project. To date it is my understanding that there is still no power purchasing agreement to be signed. Great rhetoric would hail the fact that if this was such a wonderful opportunity, these diamond mines would be dragging us to the table to sign this deal. I have yet to see their enthusiasm and I keep continuing to hear that they don’t want it and they continue to stall it as long as possible.

We will hear that the east side of the lake route seems to be the best one according to Deze. Let us remind the Members and the public that this is through a national park that only represents the business case of the Deze Corporation.

It is my view that we have never fully and fairly considered the alternative routes that we’re all familiar with: the ones over the Simpson Islands or underneath the water. That may add an additional $20 million to $50 million, but Deze believes, as I understand it, that this is either too much of a cost and the rate of return will either be way too slow or way too low. These routes could provide significant public benefit for everyone.

If those costs are true and are being given fair evaluation, we could use that as an opportunity to take a business case to the federal government to say with your assistance we could help to continue lowering the price of power throughout the Northwest Territories, providing assistance to lowering the cost of living throughout the Northwest Territories.

In closing, the hydro dam is a public resource. We need to ensure that the public is seen as a partnership in this resource. I will have questions later today for the Premier .

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins . The honourable Member for Nahendeh , Mr. Menicoche .

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Escort Eligibility Under The GNWT Medical Travel Policy

Members’ Statements

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I would like to talk about the concerns of constituents regarding the lack of escorts for people who must be sent to hospital on medevac flights.

A constituent told me that at Christmas her husband was rushed to Yellowknife by plane in critical condition. He was in distress and not able to think or speak clearly. She was very worried and concerned about her husband, so she drove to Yellowknife as soon as possible. She reached the hospital some eight hours later. The doctor in charge was very relieved to see her as there had been no one to answer questions on her husband’s behalf. The doctor thought she should have been with her husband. As well, medical staff members were looking for her to sign required forms.

Recently there was a similar circumstance with another constituent from Fort Simpson who was sent to Edmonton without his spouse as an escort. It is concerning to me that spouses who are very ill and disoriented are being medevaced without their spouses to assist in providing necessary information to doctors and to understand medical forms that need signing. The patient is isolated, may be medicated, and cannot understand guidelines and medical procedures necessary for their treatment.

The other factor is that costs for spouses that travel after their partners are out-of-pocket expenses because they have not been assigned or designated as an escort. Their first thought is to be with their spouse and the second is to recover costs, which are often for a lengthy stay.

I raise these concerns because I am getting frequent occurrences. I urge the Minister of Health and Social Services to ensure that when spouses are in severe need of support from a spouse or close family member, that our medical staff designate them as an escort as needed.

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Escort Eligibility Under The GNWT Medical Travel Policy

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche . The honourable Member for Hay River South , Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to join my colleagues today who have very eloquently spoken to the issue of the Deze Energy Corporation. This corporation actually had its origins in a previous government and it does have similarities to the Deh Cho Bridge Corporation.

This was the idea and brainchild of a government and of people who are not any longer sitting at this table. Yet we here as a government... Oh, well, some of them are still here.

---Laughter

The idea of the structure and ownership of this corporation has merit in the fact that I think recognition should be given to the First Nations people on whose land this project will either be transmitted or even those who have an interest in the Taltson. However, to give so much of it away that this government then does no longer have control over what happens makes a mockery of what we’re trying to do here as a government. We have to look out for the public interest; the Deze Energy Corporation does not. We’re here for all the people of the Northwest Territories.

I have to tell you, we talk and boast of our huge hydro potential and all of our resources here in the Northwest Territories, but every time a reasonable project comes up that could benefit in ways that we haven’t even quantified -- employment, training, business, economic opportunities -- what’s the first thing we say is the biggest deterrent? Can’t afford the power. It doesn’t matter if it’s a pellet mill at Patterson’s in Hay River. It doesn’t matter if it’s a processing plant for Avalon at Pine Point. It doesn’t matter what kind of a manufacturing project it is.

Every time it comes down to the same common denominator: we can’t afford to do these things in the North because we can’t afford the power bill. Yet here we are with all of this potential for hydro and we have to ensure that this route of transmission of power from the Taltson, once the Taltson dam is expanded, goes on a path and route that picks up the most opportunity possible, serves the most communities, the most people and the most potential for economic development.

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen . The honourable Member for Frame Lake , Ms. Bisaro .

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As we consider the difficulties encountered by the Deh Cho Bridge Project and the resulting financial implications for this government, my mind cannot help but jump to another large project that this government is involved in. Of course, I speak of the Taltson Hydro Expansion Project. I, too, will weigh in on this subject today.

We MLAs have had quite a few briefings and updates on the Taltson project over the last two years that I’ve been here. As I cleaned up my office last week I found a few of those update documents. Interesting reading, they were. As mentioned by Mr. Abernethy yesterday, a prominent component of

the project, according to the information we’ve been given, is to examine an interconnected electricity grid. Yesterday the Premier advised the House that an electricity grid is a long-term objective in the government’s Energy Strategy. Fair enough; achieving that objective will certainly take time.

Since 2002 this government has pumped some $13 million into the Taltson project and there’s little sign of any let-up on our giveaways that I can see. What are we getting for the money that we’ve spent? If, as we continually hear, this project is a business enterprise, will the GNWT be paid back for the millions we’ve invested? If we will not, what control do we have over these financial investments? How is that money spent?

A one-third interest in Deze Energy Corporation does not give us much control, from what I can see. The Taltson project is looking more and more like the bridge scenario and I find that very scary. Are we heading down the same path with the Taltson Expansion Project that we followed for the Deh Cho Bridge Project? Will the GNWT once again be left holding the bag of debt for a megaproject, our finance perched precariously on a ledge just waiting for a strong breeze to blow us off into disaster?

In February of last year during a presentation from the Premier on the Taltson Expansion Project one of the bullets stated, “Project needs GNWT backstop for construction.” That sounds way too similar to the parameters of our recently collapsed P3 bridge project. Are we guaranteeing the Taltson project’s debt? What financial safeguards exist for this government in regard to the project and how much are we on the hook for? I will have these and other questions for the Premier at the appropriate time.

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Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro . The honourable Member for Nunakput , Mr. Jacobson .

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Beaufort-Delta Spring Carnivals

Members’ Statements

Jackie Jacobson

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This afternoon my Member’s statement is on the carnivals that are starting to happen in the Beaufort-Delta this coming weekend.

We have the Muskrat Jamboree coming up this weekend. I look forward to seeing the dog races, the Isaac Simon 20-mile dog race, the snowmobile races, games on the river, and starting to dance. I see Mr. McLeod’s ready to go dancing soon. We’re looking forward to it and I hope everybody has a safe weekend in Inuvik and has a good time, sees some family and friends.

After that, next week is the Aklavik 100th Anniversary Carnival. Really looking forward to that. The dog races as well, the skidoo races. The best thing about that is you get to see some family that you never see all winter. The sun is back as well.

It’s a lot warmer. I wish everybody to have a good weekend in Inuvik again.

Tuk’s carnival, Beluga Jamboree, is on April 19th this year. I’m really looking forward to that, so anybody in the Leg., if you’re there, drop by for a coffee and I’ll cook you breakfast.

Other than that, I just wish everybody a good carnival season, a safe one, and I look forward to seeing everybody out there.

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Beaufort-Delta Spring Carnivals

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Jacobson . The honourable Member for Monfwi , Mr. Lafferty .

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5th Annual Aboriginal Hand Game Tournament

Members’ Statements

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I’ll also throw in a twist to my Member’s statement on the hand games tournament.

...as far as northern Alberta. The community was full of excitement, fully energized. You can hear the drum beat. We as the Dene people call it the heartbeat. You can hear it from miles away.

The event brought families together, friends united, and new acquaintances. It was time to share, time to laugh, time to connect with old friends, time to respect, time to heal and, most importantly, a time to carry on a tradition of our way of life.

First place was Wekweeti; second Tulita; third was Wrigley; then Deline, Behchoko and Fort Simpson.

I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

---Unanimous consent granted.

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5th Annual Aboriginal Hand Game Tournament

Members’ Statements

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mr. Speaker, I’d just like to highlight the results that there’s been a sixth place finishing, as I highlighted. I’d just like to congratulate all the teams and the community of Behchoko for having a most successful hand games tournament... [Microphone turned off.]

...from across the Northwest Territories to this community. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

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5th Annual Aboriginal Hand Game Tournament

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, recognitions of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre , Mr. Hawkins .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, colleagues. It’s with appreciation I recognize Paige Elkin here in our Assembly.

[Microphone turned off.]

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Item 6, acknowledgements. Item 7, oral questions. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , Mr. Krutko .

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Question 65-16(5): Community Recreational Trail System Development

Oral Questions

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

…or even allowing for those out there to achieve high results and be able to perform even at the national level, from what we’ve seen at the Arctic Winter Games, because of something I think that we can build on. We have shown that these people can compete, so I’d like to ask the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs , are there any programs out there to develop capacity in the communities so that these athletes can continue their participation in the sport that they represent.

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Question 65-16(5): Community Recreational Trail System Development

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . The honourable Minister responsible for Municipal and Community Affairs , Mr. Robert McLeod .

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Question 65-16(5): Community Recreational Trail System Development

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are very proud of the fact that during these past Arctic Winter Games, 27 of the 33 communities across the Northwest Territories were represented, and it’s our goal to get the other five communities in so when we go to Whitehorse in 2012 that we will have all 33 communities represented.

We have started the After School Program to try and encourage kids to get into the sport. Some of the money was able to be used for purchasing of equipment. As well, there was the federal money that we had allocated to some of the communities, the recreation infrastructure funding that some of the communities had applied for. We’re continuing to search for alternative funding out there that we could pass on to the communities, because we would like to see the day come when we have more and more athletes from the NWT competing at a national level. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 65-16(5): Community Recreational Trail System Development

Oral Questions

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, I’d like to ask the Minister, I know there was a previous program called the Community Trails Program, and I think it was a joint program between the Government of the Northwest Territories and the federal government. So I’d like to ask the Minister, does that program exist and if it does, how much resources are in that program.

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Question 65-16(5): Community Recreational Trail System Development

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Mr. Speaker, I’d have to follow up on that. To my knowledge, I don’t know if the program exists anymore, but I will follow up

and get that information and pass it on to the Member. Thank you.

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Question 65-16(5): Community Recreational Trail System Development

Oral Questions

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, I believe that these types of programs do develop community capacity, but more importantly, it allows our athletes to be able to train similar to other athletes in the larger centres but train on facilities that are designed for their activity, regardless if it’s cross-country skiing or snowshoeing or even the ability to be able to use that facility for community usage. So I’d just like to ask the Minister, can his department consider looking at some sort of an initiative that allows communities to work on a program that develops Community Trails so that it can be used for recreational purposes.

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Question 65-16(5): Community Recreational Trail System Development

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Mr. Speaker, there is the money that we do pass on to the communities through the gas tax and the community infrastructure money that they’d be able to use for developing trails, if that was one of their priorities. I think we’re starting to see the results of a lot of the money that has been expended towards recreational facilities towards the development of our athletes, and I think the fact that we had 27 communities represented in the Arctic Winter Games goes a long way in showing that the money is being invested and is being used wisely by the communities. Thank you.

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Question 65-16(5): Community Recreational Trail System Development

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Your final supplementary, Mr. Krutko .

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Question 65-16(5): Community Recreational Trail System Development

Oral Questions

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, I believe there’s a need in our communities also for firebreaks, and I think that’s probably a perfect opportunity for the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, working with the Department of the Environment, to use those dollars that are going to be expended to develop firebreaks around communities as, basically, fire protection.

So I’d like to ask the Minister, will he consider talking with his colleague from the Department of Environment if there’s such an opportunity for communities to use those dollars to not only develop firebreaks but also use them to develop multi-use trails which could be used as a firebreak and also that can be used for trails and used for ski trails or, basically, snowshoe trails around our communities. Thank you.

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Question 65-16(5): Community Recreational Trail System Development

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Mr. Speaker, there are also some communities that have some trail programs and there are a lot of ski trails from the old TEST Program that they’re starting to groom again. But for the communities that have put together trail programs, I’d commit to the Member that I’ll follow up on some of his requests and get some information as to how they went about doing it and pass that on to the Member. I’ll also have a discussion with any other departments. We look for any opportunity we can to improve the infrastructure in the communities. Thank you.

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Question 65-16(5): Community Recreational Trail System Development

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Frame Lake , Ms. Bisaro .

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Question 66-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions are addressed to the Minister responsible for the Power Corp. I spoke in my Member’s statement about the fact that we continually hear that the Taltson Expansion Project, Deze Energy Corporation, is a business, and that the enterprise and the expansion is itself a business, but the GNWT, as I mentioned, has put quite a few millions into this particular project. I’d like to ask the Premier whether or not the GNWT will be paid back for the millions that we have invested in this project. Thank you.

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Question 66-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro . The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Power Corporation , Mr. Roland .

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Question 66-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Floyd Roland

Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the project is indeed based on the business model of a partnership. The partnership of Deze Corporation is made up of our NWT Energy Corporation No. 3, the Akaitcho Energy Corporation and the Metis Energy Company that make up the one-third partners on this project. We have, as the GNWT, over a number of years invested, through the Power Corporation, in the neighbourhood of $13 million, I believe it is, up to this year in getting ready for the environmental phase that we’re in the closing of and that business modelling that was prepared and getting the expertise to help us with that business model.

If the project is to proceed, the dividends that would be received from that project after the initial investment was paid back, we would start to see that return to the Government of the Northwest Territories long term, yes.

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Question 66-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Thanks to the Minister for that explanation. It doesn’t really help me much. It’s going to be an awfully long time before we get any money back, but I guess I have to assume that eventually we will get back our $13 million.

I mentioned in my statement that one of the bullets on a presentation that we received some time last year was that there needs to be the GNWT to backstop this project for construction. I’d like to ask the Minister to explain what that means. Are we providing a financial guarantee to the Taltson Expansion Project? Thank you.

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Question 66-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Floyd Roland

Inuvik Boot Lake

Mr. Speaker, the business case that was put forward, the modelling, the request for support from federal funds, as well as this total project being based on the power purchase agreements that are to be signed with the mines. Without those power purchase agreements, there is no project. The issue of the construction

phase is until the construction is done and the delivery of power happens, the revenue source isn’t there yet, so that’s the construction phase that they are seeking to have some commitment from the Government of the Northwest Territories or the federal government to deal with that construction piece.

As the GNWT, as the Minister of Finance has stated, we are unable to guarantee that level of debt to the Power Corporation. Hence the discussions of finding partners beyond ourselves to help carry this project through. Thank you.

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Question 66-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Mr. Speaker, I guess if we are and we have already input some $13 million into this project, we are going to get paid back through dividends, if I understood the Minister correctly, but I would think that if we are one-third partners and there is a dividend of, say, $30, we are only going to get one-third of that $30 dividend. We are only going to get $10. My understanding is that the other partners in the Deze Corporation have put in minimal money compared to our $13 million.

In getting paid back through dividends, are we going to get an equal share of any dividend or are we going to get a larger share because we will have put in far more money at the outset than any of the other two partners? Thank you.

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Question 66-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Floyd Roland

Inuvik Boot Lake

Mr. Speaker, the partnership agreement that is to be signed will spell out all of that detail. We are in the final… There are a couple of months that the Cabinet has requested to review that initial document that has been put together by the partners. We have yet to sign an agreement that would see this go forward, but we have supported the groups coming onside. We fully realize that the investment we have to make up front is from the Government of the Northwest Territories or the Power Corporation to help move it along, because the partners themselves at this present time without a power purchase agreement are unable to find those resources.

As earlier, a number of Members were speaking in Members’ statements about capacity in the North and seeing a broader partnership and a revenues build coming to the aboriginal governments and organizations, this is a way of doing that, is to provide them the support up front and have them build on a capacity as this project is built. Thank you.

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Question 66-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Mr. Speaker, thanks to the Minister. I understand that things are being negotiated and so on, but I guess I am concerned, as I mentioned in my statement, that we are entering into this project. We are, at this point, backstopping the project without any sort of financial safeguards. I think the Premier mentioned yesterday, in response to a question from Mr. Abernethy , that some part of this project is coming up to this government for

approval in the near future. Could I get an explanation of what he meant by that? Thank you.

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Question 66-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Floyd Roland

Inuvik Boot Lake

Mr. Speaker, as this project is moving along, the work on the partnership agreement as well as the power purchase agreements have been going parallel with the environmental review process. We are, as a Cabinet, having to look at that partnership agreement and decide if we can sign that or not or if we would tell the remaining partnership that they would have to go seek outside partners to help bring this project along. Thank you.

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Question 66-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland . The honourable Member for Great Slave , Mr. Abernethy .

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Question 67-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are in follow-up to my Member’s statement. On March 3rd , in responding to questions

from my colleague Mr. Bromley , the Premier said, according to the unedited Hansard, “We have looked at this project and this project has been built on a clear case of a business model.

If we want to establish more to it, then we can do that.” Later, in response to another question, he indicated, according to unedited Hansard once again, “So if this project goes, and it will go only by the fact that it’s a business case model, if we add more to it, then we lose the business case and there is no project.” I was wondering if the Premier can help me understand the contradiction in those two statements and help me understand whether or not there is an opportunity for us to actually change this project and go with alternate routes that actually have greater benefits to the people of the Northwest Territories over the long term.

Are we stuck to this eastern route or nothing? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 67-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy . The honourable Premier , Mr. Roland .

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Question 67-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There is no contradiction. There is, in fact, if the Government of the Northwest Territories wants or this Assembly wants to see alternate routes, this Assembly would have to come up with money to afford that, because, as I had stated, this project has been built on the business case, not offsets from the Government of the Northwest Territories, no subsidies, purely on a business case of the ratepayer being, in this case, the diamond mines. If they don’t sign onto this and make it feasible, then there is no project.

The developer’s assessment report that’s been filed through the environmental review process has been moved forward. We’ve updated Members on that of that process and recently it’s gone through its final

extension that was put in place for public input and we’ve heard some concerns in that area and are looking at adjusting. Deze is looking at adjusting the routing to deal with the issues raised by those around the original routing and Lutselk’e itself. We’ve done work based on that. The initial review that was done and the original information was requested along routing lines. That work was done and provided through the environmental review process. Thank you.

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Question 67-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

With respect to routing lines, there are several different options and there has been some costing suggested, but the costing was actually provided by Deze themselves and the NWT Hydro Corporation, both obviously proponents of a particular route. I was wondering if there was any opportunity or could the Premier facilitate the acquisition of costing that wasn’t done by the two organizations that want to go a particular direction.

I think it would be interesting to get an independent assessment that would cross the islands, the island route or outside the sub-islands or even the western route would be from somebody who wasn’t 100 percent convinced that the only route doable was the East Arm route. Thank you.

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Question 67-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

The Power Corporation contracted out much of the expertise that’s required in doing some of these assessments and pulling some of the costs together. The Member has talked about a number of routes: submarine that would be under the lake or at the bottom of the lake; the trans-island route, as discussed; and the western route. We’re talking of the base case plus, for example, the submarine. The estimates were about $50 million more; trans-island was about $40 million more; the western route was looking at $200 million or more.

Again, the partnership has looked at this purely on the business case. We have to be able to say if we are going to make this work, be able to sell power to the industry, in this case the mines, for a lower cost than what they can produce right now and that is diesel generation and hauling the fuel up to their sites, otherwise they have no interest because they have already invested in the infrastructure.

The one case scenario is Gahcho Kue where they have yet to make a decision if they are going to go to a mine development. They are looking to see if we, as a government, are going to provide the hydro side or will they have to provide for their own power initially and that could affect their decision about go or no-go.

So we’ve had to fully base this on the ability to provide power at or better than they can develop right now and that’s been driving the business model we’re into.

Now, Members would like to see this additional information. I will see and provide again an update to Members on who put this information together for

us and provide that to Members and see where that goes. Right now, the Member asked earlier, this business call, the developer’s assessment report that went on is based on the routing that was laid out, that has gone through the hearing and we’ve got some feedback there. Deze is looking at doing some rerouting to adjust for the concerns of the band and others in the area. Thank you.

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Question 67-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

I get a business case, I understand it. Quite frankly, it makes sense to me. If you want to make a lot of money, the eastern route is the best thing. If I was a businessman or a member of Deze, that’s what I would want as well. But I’m not. I’m a territorial politician and so is the Premier and what we need to be doing is we need to be working in the best interest of the people of the Northwest Territories.

I’m not convinced that is the best route. I am happy the Premier is willing to meet with us and give us some additional information, but what I want to ask the Premier is if it’s too late to change gears on this project and bring it back into the interest of the public.

The people are speaking. The people are telling us they want to see grids, they want to see opportunities going to other places, other routes considered. Is it too late to resist something that we could still do in the best interest of the people of the Northwest Territories, remembering that I’m not a businessperson with Deze, I’m a politician for the Northwest Territories and so are you.

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Question 67-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

The development assessment report that went in for environmental review is the business case to model we have used. They have asked for alternate routes. That information was provided. There has been an acceptance that that is the area that makes the best-case scenario for us. The adjustments that are being looked at are the result of the recent hearings that were held.

If Members want to see this change, then we would have to pull it back. There would be a full additional review done. That would delay anything there. That would run out of additional years of mine life. In some cases some of our older mines have limited life. That could potentially affect the go or no-go of a new mine.

Let’s talk about the best-case scenario for the people of the Northwest Territories. The diamond mines have brought to the Government of the Northwest Territories $1.1 billion in GDP. In a time when the economy was starting to severely wane because of the gold mines in shutdown mode and slowing down and the oil and gas was stagnant, it was purely on GNWT and transfers from Ottawa. Through the mining industry and the diamond mines in particular we have been able to shore that up and bring it up so that we’re one of the fastest growing jurisdictions in GDP across Canada.

With that in mind, our interest at this point, knowing that they are the game in town, in a sense, we need to ensure that we can supply them power, that they can extend their mine life so that GDP can continue to remain or grow instead of shrink.

Let’s talk about the power to the Slave Geological Province. We’re talking the potential to grow our northern economy in the area of 700 jobs. When you look at the construction of this facility, long-term revenues would accrue to the aboriginal governments and public sector shareholders, that being ourselves, in extending the mine life that grows our economy long term. Yes, we have to look at other areas. If we run the line around to the other sides and hook our communities up, then that falls into the PUB and the rate base. Those customers cannot afford that extension.

It would have to be purely a government contribution outside of that PUB process. Then we’d be asking for the $100 million-plus if we go around the western side, for example.

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Question 67-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland . Final supplementary, Mr. Abernethy .

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Question 67-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thanks to the Premier once again for all that information. I couldn’t agree more. That’s all good information and that’s where the Taltson expansion could benefit us regardless of the route. If they go around the east, we get the same result as if we go across the islands. It’s a little bit more money. We hit the diamond mines, we hit Avalon, we open up the North Slave Geological Province; everything that he just said happens regardless of whether we take either one of those routes.

The difference is with the across-the-islands route someday we’re going to be close enough to Yellowknife that we can grid in easily. There are social benefits to that route. If we grid in, then we can use that power from Snare. My question is, why are we so set on this East Arm route when the same advantages that the people of the Northwest Territories expect and want, plus many, many more, exist from an alternate route across the islands? It may be a bit more expensive, but the long-term benefits far outweigh the benefits of going around the East Arm route.

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Question 67-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

This is one of the difficulties we face, is when the government-of-the-day puts the business model and gets behind a project. The government-of-the-day, and even this government, realizes we have limited capacity in subsidizing any projects of this nature. So this has purely been on a business case. That is the kilowatt-hour sale that could make this project go that could then deliver revenues to the partnership, that could then grow capacity, that could fuel further development potentials in the area. So we have looked at those options, as I stated earlier, through the environmental review process. The additional

cost deemed it unaffordable based on the business model.

Yes, we see the long-term objective as a government of connecting a grid in the Northwest Territories through all our hydro and up the valley when you look at our 11,000 megawatt potential that we have and the sale to southern Canada through that potential. Those are long-term goals and projects beyond our capacity. We’d have to find partners for that. The partnership would have to be sure that they could sell this at a profit and not require subsidy from governments.

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Question 67-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland . The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre , Mr. Hawkins .

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Question 68-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Like my colleagues, through Members’ statements and questions, I will continue the issue of the Taltson expansion and the Deze partnership.

We have to be very clear, the GNWT represents the social interests of all residents of the Territories. To be crystal clear, the Deze interest is a group of partners that are represented strictly on economic interests, not public and social interests.

The challenge I see here is who represents the public interest in this partnership. That’s the question to the Premier right now, is how will the public be plugged into this partnership through accountability and in the context of public interest in this deal.

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Question 68-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins . The honourable Premier , Mr. Roland .

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Question 68-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The public interest is represented by the Government of the Northwest Territories as a shareholder through the Power Corporation or through the Hydro Corporation itself. The public interest being served by the fact that there would be revenues accrued from that. The public interest would be in supporting aboriginal governments and building capacity and having long-term revenue sources going into them so that they can build on their capacity. The public interest would be reducing 100 million litres of fuel. The public interest would be 280 kilo-tonnes of CO

reduced

annually. That’s where our public interest is. That’s where the big picture is.

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Question 68-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

The Premier did not talk about how the public interest has a position in this. The public interest was not discussed in his answer about how the public interest gets represented. If we represent a one-third interest in a corporation outside of the territorial government, that’s way beyond arm’s length, then the public interest is lacking. What is stopping the Premier from

evaluating fairly and strategically with all the proper information about the route that we’ve discussed in this House, which is either over the Simpson Islands or under the water? What is stopping this department of NWT power from evaluating that fairly and weighing and balancing the social interest and social benefits of this opportunity?

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Question 68-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

The interests are being represented, one, to help growth of the Northwest Territories through an economically viable project. Members have already said on a number of occasions that we do not want a repeat of where we are guaranteeing or backstopping and having to put additional dollars at risk. This model is based purely on the business-case scenario.

What I think I’m starting to hear is that, well, as a government maybe we should step in and put more involvement from the government side. That is a different scenario altogether. It’s been based on a business case. It’s been built on building capacity with our aboriginal partnership in the Northwest Territories. It’s built on a business case of extending mine life which would keep growth and revenue coming overall to people working, companies keeping their jobs and the Government of the Northwest Territories keeping its corporate taxes going.

The additional routing through the environmental phase has been done. That information has been provided. Again, if it’s the government’s will that we do this, then we have to accept that we’re going to stop the process where it’s at. We’re going to potentially add to the uncertainty of our economic climate at a time when that’s not the best solution.

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Question 68-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

Earlier in a response to Mr. Abernethy the Premier was touting the GDP growth because of this opportunity. To be honest, GDP growth in the Northwest Territories is all either theoretical or useless, because the piper being paid is Ottawa over the Northwest Territories. Yes, people are working, but those who are getting the money from the resources and those revenues go straight to Ottawa.

The Premier says this is all based on a business case. I’d like to hear the Premier explain to this House where the money will be coming from for this potential project as we all well know this is worth way more than any money that this territorial government could ever raise even at a one-third partnership. Where is the money?

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Question 68-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

The partnership that has been put together that has built this business case, this model is based on the fact that the power purchase agreements make this project viable. That is why the most economical routing has been put forward. If we decide as a government to socially engineer this, as some of the wording that has been used, then the Government of the Northwest Territories needs to find some of its own-source

revenues to offset that cost, otherwise it gets passed on to the rate base. Who in the communities along that side can stand an increase in power generation and the cost of power generation from their existing areas of power generation?

The other part of the Member’s question leading up to that is, yes, the federal government gets the royalties from those mines. But let’s not forget that we just passed a budget that had over $800 million of transfer back to this government from the federal government.

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Question 68-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

The Premier raised the issue of power purchase agreements. Those are all well and good. But to date I have yet to see these power purchase agreements. As I said in my Member’s statement, if they are such a great deal for the diamond mines company, they would drag us to the table kicking and screaming and make us sign them with them. The point being, Avalon wants to sign a deal, Fortune mines is interested, the City of Yellowknife has a life of in perpetuity that we could be hooking up. Don’t forget about Dettah, Ndilo, Behchoko, Whati, and many other customers that we could create a grid with.

The point being, the power purchase agreements are here today in living proof, not short-term mine life. Where are the power purchase agreements that they keep waving that are the key to this deal?

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Question 68-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

The city of Yellowknife and the surrounding area served by it, hydro facilities up to the city of Yellowknife over 70 percent is served by hydro. We have to run the diesels from time to time to offset some of the outages and the high demand times. The fact is if we were to build this project purely on the existing rate base, it is unaffordable. We could not pass that extra cost on to the individuals.

The Member spoke about Avalon. We would like to see that development occur. The issue is, at six cents per kilowatt hour we’re unable to develop any new extension of our facilities at that cost. We don’t have the customer base for that. Those are some of the areas that we’re looking at new customers to pay for this. That right now would be the mines.

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Question 68-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland . Final supplementary, Mr. Hawkins .

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Question 68-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Where are the power purchase agreements? That really is the question. Where are the diamond mines who are willing to sign on the dotted line and say they are willing to buy power at ‘X’ rate? Where is the proof that they are behind this project? That could settle a lot of uncertainty today.

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Question 68-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

There have been ongoing negotiations for quite some time with the mines. In fact, there will be a meeting held in the very next...probably within the next week with the

key folks from the mines. That will tell us if in fact we’re going to put any more effort into this. It is based on power purchase agreements that have to be signed off. But before we can get there, much like the Mackenzie Gas Pipeline, much work needs to be done to build the business model to go through the environmental phase, then a final decision on should the project go or not. We’re faced with the same scenario in the Taltson system.

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Question 68-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland . The honourable Member for Weledeh , Mr. Beaulieu .

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Question 69-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I, too, will talk about the Taltson expansion. I’ll try to ask some questions that are different than the questions that the Minister responsible for the Power Corp has already answered. My first question is: what is the GNWT’s overall management role in the Taltson Hydro expansion? Who has the lead management role in this expansion? Thank you.

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Question 69-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu . The honourable Premier , Mr. Roland .

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Question 69-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the GNWT, through the Hydro Corporation and more specifically the NWT Energy Corporation No. 3, that is a partner at the discussions and the Deze partnership. It is through that involvement that we’re involved and, again, our relationship through the Minister responsible to the Hydro Corp exists through that avenue. Thank you.

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Question 69-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Mr. Speaker, another question I have for the Minister: what is the GNWT’s long-term financial plan insofar as the Taltson Hydro expansion goes, including any corporation owned by the GNWT aside from and including the diamond industry? Thank you.

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Question 69-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

That would be difficult to provide an answer at this point. The long-term fiscal plan, again, of the partnership is, one, the partnership will have a board of governors, a governance council set up to make these business decisions. The business model that’s been put in place sees this project being viable because of the power purchase agreements and the return on investment through those after paying down the initial portion that would grow, of course, would grow faster if we were to do the full expansion up to I believe it’s 56 megawatts. Thank you.

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Question 69-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Mr. Speaker, considering the difficulties, I believe that this expansion or the partners in this expansion are going to have to go through the area, the eastern route, to negotiate anything with the Lutselk'e First Nations. I can’t see any of that being settled ahead of the land claim, and I can’t see that being settled after the land

claim because of the position as taken and the value that Lutselk'e First Nation considers on the land. I would like to ask the Minister what examination has occurred for other potential users insofar as in relation to where the transmission line runs, actually, to try to get them to see if he’s examined other routes due to potential users or so on. I’m trying to say that. Thank you.

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Question 69-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

Mr. Speaker, as a result of the environmental review process, additional routing is being looked at, and that’s to incorporate the concerns raised by the Lutselk'e band when it comes to especially the area of the Lockhart River and the importance that river is held in by that band. So there is alternate routing looked at in that area still along the East Arm to try and deal with that and still get power through the process.

Right now, if we were to talk in today’s business case, there are no other potential customers except existing customers. There are future potential customers that could be looked at, but we don’t even know if, until they get through a regulatory phase, there will be a mine and how it will be done. We’ve got a long journey on that side to go. We see that as a potential future customer, yes, and we will have to look at how we go forward on that basis. But right now this business case is built on existing customers that we could bring on to our grid system. Thank you.

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Question 69-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland . Your final supplementary, Mr. Beaulieu .

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Question 69-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister tell me if the Taltson Hydro expansion has potentially viable partners? Thank you.

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Question 69-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

Mr. Speaker, the partnership that’s been formed, the partnership agreement that’s been started and worked on and has been initialled by the other partners, we, as the GNWT, as the sole shareholder of the Hydro Corporation and down through to, well, it would be the NWT Energy Corporation, have yet to sign that. We have to review that to see if, in fact, that is the best business case model that we could support of this project, and we’ve asked for some additional time to review that document. We don’t want to get into a situation where we’ve not protected our full interests, as Members have been laying out. Thank you.

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Question 69-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland . The honourable Member for Kam Lake , Mr. Ramsay .

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Question 70-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I’d like to join my colleagues in asking the Premier some questions on the Taltson Hydroelectric Expansion Project and the government’s involvement with Deze Energy Corp.

First of all, I think the question that I’d like to ask the Premier , and I know a number of folks across the Northwest Territories watch the proceedings of the House, I’d like to ask the Premier if he could explain to the public and to the Members of this House exactly how the $700 million or the estimated cost of the expansion and the transmission line is going to be paid for. Thank you.

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Question 70-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay . Mr. Roland .

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Question 70-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Floyd Roland

Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the project will be paid for by the power purchase agreements, the sale of energy to the mines. That’s how it’s going to be paid for. Thank you.

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Question 70-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Mr. Speaker, I thank the Premier for that. I was thinking more of the upfront cost, the initial capital investment of upwards of $700 million. How will that be arrived at? Thank you.

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Question 70-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Floyd Roland

Inuvik Boot Lake

Mr. Speaker, once the power purchase agreements are signed, then those are bankable in the sense of being able to go out and go to the financing market so that they can then get the money to build this facility. The issue, as was laid out to Members and was raised earlier, was during the construction phase, until the power can flow there needs to be a backstop. There were initial requests made in the previous government to have a request made to the federal government to give an exemption around this project. The last government, the response wasn’t favourable to that request.

The work has continued and the idea…and there’s been some discussion lately about finding a private sector partner to step in and carry that and see that part of the project started. Thank you.

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Question 70-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

There certainly are some parallels here between the government’s participation with the Deh Cho Bridge Corporation and Deze Energy Corporation. We backstopped the Deh Cho Bridge Corporation in the early stages, to the tune of almost $10 million. I’d like to ask the Premier how much investment the Government of the Northwest Territories, through the Power Corporation and the Hydro Corporation, have invested in Deze Energy. Thank you.

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Question 70-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Floyd Roland

Inuvik Boot Lake

Since the start of this, the concept of this has been put together. It’s been, I believe, and I’ll have to double check the information, but I believe it’s in the neighbourhood of $13 million of investment since the previous government into the life of this government. Thank you.

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Question 70-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland . Your final supplementary, Mr. Ramsay .

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Question 70-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, considering we have a substantial investment of public funds in Deze, I’m just wondering how we account or how we provide

oversight as a government to the work of Deze Energy. I’ve been a Member here since 2003 and we’ve talked about power purchase agreements in this House for years and there still aren’t any bankable power purchase agreements that the corporation, the Hydro Corporation, the Power Corp and Deze have entered into with any mine. I’m just wondering, again, when can we expect any movement on power purchase agreements, because it is taking an inordinate amount of time for these guys to work out a deal with the existing mines. Thank you.

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Question 70-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Floyd Roland

Inuvik Boot Lake

Mr. Speaker, to be fair, the previous governments that initially got this concept together put the pieces together, presented to Members the idea on how to move forward through this partnership. At that point there is no number to be able to say through, for example, the environmental review process could add additional dollars much like by the environmental review process looked at it, adjusting the line through the East Arm, that could add some dollars to this project.

We could not sign power purchase agreements until we get through the environmental phase, because we need to know the final numbers and cost of construction. That could be then calculated to the kilowatt hour sale of energy. We are expecting in the very near future to be able to come forward on that, because, again, there is no project without these power purchase agreements. Thank you.

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Question 70-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland . The honourable Member for Nahendeh , Mr. Menicoche .

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Question 71-16(5): Reconstruction And Resurfacing Of Highway No. 1

Oral Questions

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I won’t be asking the Premier any questions. Mr. Speaker, my questions are actually for the Minister of Transportation just with regard to the commitment to get the

section of Fort Providence junction towards Fort Simpson, I believe is Axe Handle, chipsealed in this coming fiscal year. I would just like to ask how much work has begun on the process of awarding the work or getting the work underway early in this spring. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 71-16(5): Reconstruction And Resurfacing Of Highway No. 1

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche . The honourable Minister of Transportation , Mr. Michael McLeod .

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Question 71-16(5): Reconstruction And Resurfacing Of Highway No. 1

Oral Questions

Deh Cho

Michael McLeod

Minister of Transportation

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am trying to remember if the Member asked this once or twice before. Mr. Speaker, I could actually go to our staff and get some firm dates of when we are anticipating the contract to start. The contract went out for tender last year, I believe. We have a contractor that was awarded the contract, except timing of the season and

weather do not permit or was not favourable to move that forward, so we expect that would happen as soon as the weather warms up and the conditions are favourable; early in the summer season or late spring I would anticipate. Thank you.

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Question 71-16(5): Reconstruction And Resurfacing Of Highway No. 1

Oral Questions

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Mr. Speaker, constituents want assurance that work will be completed with all the talk of the Deh Cho Bridge and debt wall, et cetera. I think the Premier did indicate in yesterday’s Minister’s statement that this coming fiscal year there will be no impact. I would just like to get the Minister’s assurance as well. There are several other Transportation contracts for the Nahendeh riding that work will proceed this coming year. Once again, I urge to get these contracts out of the gate as early as possible. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 71-16(5): Reconstruction And Resurfacing Of Highway No. 1

Oral Questions

Deh Cho

Michael McLeod

Minister of Transportation

Mr. Speaker, so the Member could sleep at night, we will assure him that all the projects are moving forward as we have projected and as we have reported to the Members with our capital planning over the last year and this year. We don’t anticipate any effect as a result of the Deh Cho Bridge. The projects that were carried over will move forward as soon as possible if conditions are permitting and the other contracts are already being considered for awarding too. I think we are going to see a lot of work happening this summer. We should have a good construction year, again depending on rain and weather. Thank you.

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Question 71-16(5): Reconstruction And Resurfacing Of Highway No. 1

Oral Questions

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to hear those reassurances from the Minister. My constituents will be pleased to hear that. As well, I would like to ask the Minister, come this spring, if he will come to the riding and we will do a bit of a tour to each community and discuss all the other Transportation related important projects. Mahsi cho.

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Question 71-16(5): Reconstruction And Resurfacing Of Highway No. 1

Oral Questions

Deh Cho

Michael McLeod

Minister of Transportation

Mr. Speaker, I would welcome the opportunity to attend a visit to communities in the Member’s riding given that we are investing so heavily in his riding that we have the opportunity to share that information and to also discuss other issues that the Member has been raising over the last while and have a chance to talk to the leadership. So I would certainly accept the invitation and make arrangements to travel with the Member to his riding. Thank you.

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Question 71-16(5): Reconstruction And Resurfacing Of Highway No. 1

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Hay River South , Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Question 72-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think that this dialogue we are having today on the Taltson expansion and the delivery of hydro to the diamond mines is a very good discussion. The

Premier has been doing an excellent job of responding to these questions. I would bet you the people out there in the Northwest Territories listening to this are getting a much better understanding of how this whole thing is working. I have been trying to listen to it through objective ears. I think we are accomplishing that.

Mr. Speaker, we cannot deny that the diamond mines have been a tremendous asset to the economy in the Northwest Territories. They have brought jobs. They have spent money. The expansion of the Taltson and the construction of the new transmission line would also bring tremendous economic benefits to the Northwest Territories during the construction phase. The power to the diamond mines would definitely reduce greenhouse gas emissions. That is also a good thing.

Mr. Speaker, what I hear my colleagues saying, if I can put it in this kind of analogy, is that we have this tremendous hydro resource in the Northwest Territories, but the only people who can afford to access it are entities such as the diamond mines. It is like having a banquet and we own the banquet hall and we are putting on the food, we are doing everything but we can’t afford to buy the ticket to come to the banquet because we don’t have that kind of resources.

The diamond mines have got the money, the power purchase agreement. They have the money, but what we are asking for our people who want us to be involved in businesses that require cheaper power and for our residents who could have their cost of living positively impacted by the hydro is we are asking, other than the 30 percent ownership of the GNWT and the dividends, is there any other way that we can configure this so that we could pick up benefits for our residents and our small businesses along the way. We just want to in some way benefit from this resource. Thank you.

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Question 72-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen . The honourable Premier , Mr. Roland .

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Question 72-16(5): Taltson Hydro Expansion Project

Oral Questions

Inuvik Boot Lake

Floyd Roland

Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think those benefits in a number of ways are felt thr