Debates of Oct. 28th, 2010

This is page numbers 5321 - 5360 of the Hansard for the 16th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was housing .

Topics

Oral Questions

Members Present

Prayer

Minister’s Statement 70-16(5): Devolution Agreement-In-Principle Net Fiscal Benefit

Minister’s Statement 71-16(5): Social Assistance Appeal Committees

Minister’s Statement 72-16(5): Support To Traditional Economy

Maximum Community Rental Rates For Public Housing

Accumulated Public Housing Rental Arrears

Need For Flexibility In The Administration Of Housing Programs

Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing Policy

Diversity Of Challenges Facing Housing Corporation Staff And Clients

Common Sense Approach To The Delivery Of Housing Programs

Affordable And Accessible Housing In Yellowknife

Economic Rent Calculations For Nunakput Communities

Comprehensive Review Of Housing Corporation Activities And Policies

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Regional And Territorial Rental Rates For Public Housing Units

Accumulated Public Housing Rental Arrears

Need For Flexibility In The Administration Of Housing Policy

Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Transfer Of Housing Program Delivery To Community Governments

Yellowknife Housing Challenges

Economic Rent Calculations For Nunakput Communities

Comprehensive Review Of Housing Corporation Activities And Policies

Tabled Document 102-16(5): Annual Report On Official Languages 2009-2010

Tabled Document 103-15(6): GNWT Contracts Over $5,000 Report, Year Ending March 31, 2010

Flexible Transition Period For Rent Adjustments

Reduction Of NWT Housing Corporation Maximum Rental Rate

Recorded Vote

Flexible Transition Period For Rent Adjustments

Recorded Vote

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Concurrence Of Td 66-16(5), NWT Capital Estimates 2011-2012

Report of Committee of the Whole

Orders of the Day

The House met at 1:45 p.m.

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---Prayer

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Prayer

Prayer

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Good afternoon, colleagues, Welcome back to the Chamber, I’d like to welcome our guests in the gallery today. In particular, colleagues, I would like to draw your attention to the presence of a former Member of this House, a former Minister, a former Speaker, a former Commissioner...

---Laughter

...and just when we thought he’d done it all, he has now been given the distinction of an Honourary Canadian Naval Captain. Welcome, Mr. Tony Whitford.

---Applause

Orders of the day, Item 2, Ministers’ statements. The honourable Minister of Finance , Mr. Miltenberger .

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Minister’s Statement 70-16(5): Devolution Agreement-In-Principle Net Fiscal Benefit

Ministers’ Statements

Thebacha

Michael Miltenberger

Minister of Finance

Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a key element of the draft devolution agreement-in-principle: the net fiscal benefit that would accrue to Northwest Territories governments and residents once a final agreement has been reached and implemented.

Once devolution is achieved, 100 percent of the resource royalties that are currently paid to the federal government will stay in the Northwest Territories, However, our government’s transfer payments from Canada under formula financing will be reduced, but not dollar for dollar. The difference represents the net fiscal benefit. The draft devolution agreement-in-principle provides for a net fiscal benefit of 50 percent of resource revenues up to a cap.

This means that for every dollar of resource revenues received by the GNWT, 50 cents would be deducted from our formula financing grant. The cap would come into effect if the net fiscal benefit is

greater than 5 percent of the gross expenditure base set out in our formula financing arrangements, which stands in as an estimate of the GNWT’s spending needs.

The cap would amount to $61 million now, but would increase annually as the gross expenditure base grows, For example, if total royalties amount to $100 million, the net fiscal benefit would be 50 percent of that, or $50 million. If royalties are $200 million, the net fiscal benefit would be equal to the cap. Based on the royalties actually collected by Canada from the NWT over the last 10 years, we would have reached the cap only twice. In all other years, had we finalized a devolution agreement on the terms we have currently negotiated, the NWT would have received its full 50 percent share of resource revenues in addition to regular transfer payments from the federal government.

The arrangements contemplated in the AIP are completely consistent with what the provinces would receive under the Federal-Provincial Equalization Program. Under equalization, 50 percent of the province’s resource revenues are excluded from the equalization calculation and the net fiscal benefit is subject to a cap.

Therefore, no province receiving equalization receives better treatment for their resources than is contemplated in the draft devolution AIP. Newfoundland and Nova Scotia, over the years, have negotiated special time limited arrangements with Canada for revenues from the offshore. The draft devolution agreement applies to the NWT’s onshore resources, which, if they were in a province, would be subject to the equalization cap. Treatment of revenues from the offshore will be negotiated during future discussions with Canada.

The Yukon achieved devolution from Canada in 2003. Their net fiscal benefit provisions are different from those in our draft AIP, but not better. We have compared the results using the Yukon formula to the provisions of our draft AIP, under the number of NWT revenue scenarios, and the arrangements in the AIP always come out ahead.

Some provinces, like Alberta, keep 100 percent of their resource revenues, but this is because Alberta’s revenues are high enough that the province is not entitled to equalization payments and, therefore, there is nothing for the federal

government to claw back. If, sometime in the future, the royalties received by the GNWT are high enough that we don’t qualify for formula financing, we will also get to keep 100 percent of resource revenues.

In the meantime, every year that passes without a devolution agreement means that we forego another year’s net fiscal benefit. Over the last five years, the NWT has lost $208.6 million in potential net fiscal benefit.

Finally, since we cannot know how the world might change in the future, the net fiscal benefit provisions will not be written in stone. The AIP contemplates periodic reviews of the net fiscal benefit. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Minister’s Statement 70-16(5): Devolution Agreement-In-Principle Net Fiscal Benefit

Ministers’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger . The honourable Minister responsible for Education, Culture and Employment , Mr. Lafferty .

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Minister’s Statement 71-16(5): Social Assistance Appeal Committees

Ministers’ Statements

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. The Department of Education, Culture and Employment has successfully established the social assistance appeal committees to serve all Northwest Territories communities. The committees hear appeals for income assistance and child care user subsidy programs. Getting these local appeal committees now ensures that Northerners have access to a fair and impartial appeals process within their home communities.

To date we have appointed 87 committee members to hear appeals. There are still spaces available for more committee members in some communities. I encourage the public and my fellow Members to support residents in applying and participating on the social assistance appeal committees.

This was not a small task. In three short months, staff were able to solicit nominations to appoint and train committee members. This involved the development of a train the trainer appeal committee manual and to travel to communities to deliver the training sessions. I also want to thank the departments of Human Resources and Justice for their assistance with processing the appointments. This ensures that department clients receive local and quick access to a fair and equitable appeals process.

I encourage Members to reassure their constituents that the community appeals process is available to review their claims in their home communities.

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Minister’s Statement 71-16(5): Social Assistance Appeal Committees

Ministers’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . The honourable Minister responsible for Industry, Tourism and Investment , Mr. Bob McLeod .

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Minister’s Statement 72-16(5): Support To Traditional Economy

Ministers’ Statements

Bob McLeod

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In a modern world filled with laptop computers, cell phones and iPods, traditional life skills such as trapping and boat building that have served our people so well in the past are in danger of being lost. But the Government of the Northwest Territories is taking action to ensure this doesn’t happen and that is why I want to take a few moments to talk about the success of our Take a Kid Trapping Program.

The program began in 2002, and from the beginning, it’s been built on one simple premise: learning by doing.

The program is a cooperative effort between the departments of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Municipal and Community Affairs, and Environment and Natural Resources.

It is often delivered through aboriginal organizations in schools, and our elders are an integral part of the program. They teach our young people the skills and knowledge that was passed down to them. In turn, these young people gain something you can’t put a price on. They gain a greater sense of pride in who they are and they learn how traditional life skills can be a useful part of their lives.

The program has clearly struck a chord with our people. Since 2002, almost 6,000 school-aged youth have participated in a variety of Take a Kid Trapping projects. Demands for these types of activities grow every year. In fact, we have now developed a sister program, the Take a Kid Harvesting Program, to help us meet the demand.

An example of some of the successful traditional life skills projects that took place in 2009-2010 include: a traditional moosehide boat project in Tulita and a birch syrup collection project held in the North and South Slave regions.

The work we are doing is also being recognized at the national level. In June, the Fur Institute of Canada announced the recipient of its Jim Bourque Award: Industry, Tourism and Investment’s very own Guy Erasmus. This is the most prestigious national award given in the Canadian trapping industry, and Mr. Erasmus was specifically recognized for his work in the design, development and implementation of the Take a Kid Trapping Program.

---Applause

I’m pleased Mr. Erasmus was able to join us in the visitors gallery today. Guy, you’ve done a great job with this program and so has everyone else who has been involved with it.

On behalf of the Government of the Northwest Territories, I want to thank you for the excellent service you have provided the Canadian trapping

industry and the people of the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Speaker, the Take a Kid Trapping Program is an example of steps this government is taking in building our future, one of the five strategic initiatives of the 16th Legislative Assembly. Our

work in this area is leading to a greater sense of pride among our young people in their culture and their heritage. It is assisting us in achieving our goals of developing healthy, educated people and sustainable, vibrant communities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Minister’s Statement 72-16(5): Support To Traditional Economy

Ministers’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Item 3, Members’ statements. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , Mr. Krutko .

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Maximum Community Rental Rates For Public Housing

Members’ Statements

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The issue that I’d like to speak on today in regard to the area of housing is the area of maximum rent rates in every community in the Northwest Territories. What we’re finding is that in most communities, their rates are different from one community to the other.

I’ll illustrate a situation I have in my riding in regard to the community of Tsiigehtchic. To rent a five-bedroom unit in Tsiigehtchic would cost you $3,700, which is the maximum rate. Yet, half an hour down the road in Fort McPherson, the same five-bedroom unit is rented for $2,500, a difference of $1,300 between two communities, yet they’re only half an hour apart.

Mr. Speaker, there are other situations through the Northwest Territories such as Paulatuk where you pay the maximum rate of $4,600 compared to, say, a rate in Hay River or even Yellowknife, which is around $1,700 or $1,800 for a five-bedroom unit.

Mr. Speaker, I think it’s time that we looked at this situation similar to how we’re dealing with the Northwest Territories power rates, where the power rates were previously based on a community-by-community rate, which was called a community postal rate, but again, through the discussions with Members in this House and the residents of the Northwest Territories, we decided to take that issue head on and consider community rates by way of diesel communities, hydro communities and, again, that is going to benefit everyone.

I think it’s important, Mr. Speaker, that we do the similar arrangement when it comes to rental of housing units in the Northwest Territories, and if that means we have to do it gradually, I suggest that we look at regional-based rates for housing units in the specific regions, either the Beaufort-Delta region, the Sahtu, North Slave, South Slave,

and eventually work our way to a territorial rate throughout the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Speaker, we have some 2,200 units in the Northwest Territories that are operated by the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation and the local housing authorities, but again, we receive a subsidy for those units from CMHC to the tune of $28 million to operate those 2,200 units. So again, Mr. Speaker, I think it’s important enough that we seriously take a look at this issue. I will be asking the Minister questions on this later. Mahsi.

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Maximum Community Rental Rates For Public Housing

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . The honourable Member for Weledeh , Mr. Bromley .

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Accumulated Public Housing Rental Arrears

Members’ Statements

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I want to describe the tragic consequences created by our housing policies by providing the experience in just one family’s life.

Last Thursday a woman at my Dettah constituency meeting explained her situation this way: A mother of five children, aged two to ten, she and her spouse lived in public housing. Based on their combined modest incomes, rent was pegged at $1,200 per month, or 30 percent of gross earnings, equivalent to about 40 percent of take-home pay. Groceries are $1,200 a month for five kids and two adults. Add $1,200 for rent on a household take-home income of $3,200 and that leaves a family of seven with $800 a month for all the other necessities of life. These are the working poor and, not surprisingly, they couldn’t make it on this income.

When the Housing Corporation switched rent collection to what everyone in Dettah calls “the welfare office,” my constituent went every month to Yellowknife to personally deliver her documents. You can’t fax them in. She quit going when she got sick of “being treated like dirt.” That’s when arrears began mounting. She now owes $50,000. She has filed her husband’s last four years’ pay stubs with Housing and has been waiting since June to have the arrears rolled back. In the meantime, she and her spouse are both paying down arrears, taking $200 a month more out of their $800 disposable income. Based on her current deduction, she will clear her arrears in about 25 years.

So how did my constituent get by and provide for the kids? I will tell you. Despite her young children, she started working and moved out of her own home and is now living with a friend so that household income for the rental unit would drop, making her spouse eligible for a greater rent subsidy. The net result, Mr. Speaker, we forced a mother of five children to move out on her young family. We tore a family apart, made them jump

through the only hoops available to keep a roof over their kids’ heads and food on the table.

This is beyond tragic. It is inhumane. I could go down the streets in my riding and find an equally desperate story at almost every public housing doorstep.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement. Mahsi.

---Unanimous consent granted

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Accumulated Public Housing Rental Arrears

Members’ Statements

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

This isn’t about theory or process or policy reform; this is about misery and a broken home this government caused with poorly considered, ultimately destructive operational changes.

I will be asking the Minister questions on how any of us can hold our heads up and what we plan to do about this. I will ask the House to consider a motion later today. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Accumulated Public Housing Rental Arrears

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bromley . The honourable Member for Great Slave , Mr. Abernethy .

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Need For Flexibility In The Administration Of Housing Programs

Members’ Statements

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Following my colleagues, I, too, will be talking about housing.

There has been a lot of talk about arrears and vacant units and rent costs, as well as lack of flexibility within the Housing Corporation itself when it is delivering programs. To the Minister’s credit, I have heard some movement from the Minister. He is committed to getting rid of the vacancies, which I applaud. He is committed to working with the LHOs to find out whose arrears are real and whose arrears may not be real based on the move to Education and back. I applaud the Minister for that.

But one area I haven’t seen a lot of movement on, and I think there is certainly room for movement, is flexibility. I will give you an example of what I’m talking about.

Earlier this month I attended the Prospects North conference. While I was there, I was talking to an economic development officer from one of the smaller communities. He indicated to me that a mining company had been in touch with him. He was looking for 13 labourers to come and work for a three-week period. This mining company was going to pay quite well. The EDO officer went out into the community to find people and there were enough

people to fill those 13 temporary jobs, but he couldn’t find anybody who was willing to take the jobs even though the money was good, because every one of them was concerned that if they took the job, the rent would immediately go up and they would be working for nothing or very little. Five dollars, $10 or even $100 to go and do three weeks of hard labour when you can stay home and watch TV and not be any better, or worse off, lacks common sense.

Our programs have led people to make these types of decisions, which is unfortunate. We need to be working with people to get them back out into the workforce, where appropriate and where possible.

Later today I will be talking more during the motions about flexibility that this government, this Housing Corporation, needs to put in place to ensure that we are providing incentives to people to go back to work, and we are encouraging people to go back to work even if that means we have to not do immediate collections once people start working or tier a payment system back into place. There is room for flexibility here. We need to find it and we need to work with our clients to help them get back into the workforce and get off public housing. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Need For Flexibility In The Administration Of Housing Programs

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy . The honourable Member for Nahendeh , Mr. Menicoche .

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Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Members’ Statements

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. The importance of this day is that we as Regular MLAs will let government know once again of how important housing issues are to our people.

Last week I spoke in the House about how residents are having difficulty being approved for NWT Housing Corporation programming. Many of my constituents are frustrated, because they cannot get assistance due to the eligibility criteria. To be eligible, a person or family cannot make too much money or too little.

This window of core need income threshold guidelines, I feel, is very small. The same problem exists for homeowners who want to apply for the CARE program, the repair program for assistance.

Mr. Speaker, our government made a firm commitment to addressing the housing needs of NWT residents. Studies show that families do better when they are living in suitable housing. That, in turn, strengthens the quality of life in our communities.

I urge the Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation to review the guidelines and procedures of the eligibility. We are turning away people who can afford mortgages and turning away

the hardworking families who just fall short of the eligibility. Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker.

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Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche . The honourable Member for Kam Lake , Mr. Ramsay .

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing Policy

Members’ Statements

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to join my colleagues today in talking about housing.

Having been a Member of this House for the past several years, I must say I’ve been witness to some very bad and costly decisions that governments have made over the years. One of the most ridiculous and bizarre moves came when the last government decided to transfer responsibility for social policy and the $34 million to administer it from the Housing Corporation to ECE. The fact is, Regular Members in the last government told the government not to do it, but it didn’t matter because, Mr. Speaker, a funny thing seems to happen when Ministers travel south to F/P/T meetings.

They come back with some ideas that their provincial counterparts are trying, and they think, wow, I’m going to try this out on the people back home.

The problem is, Mr. Speaker, oftentimes these ideas may work in southern Canada, but applied back here in our reality they are a complete flop. Mr. Speaker, make no mistake about it, this decision was a disaster and its shockwaves are still causing untold damage to many of our residents.

As if the decision wasn’t bad enough, Mr. Speaker, ECE had to hire 12 more people to deliver a program that was already being delivered by the housing authorities, and incurred an additional $1.2 million in operational expense as a result. Yes, it is still hard to believe any government, in their right mind, would have made that call.

Finally, this government has done the right thing and put responsibility for social housing back where it belongs. But, Mr. Speaker, this government has taken its time when it comes to reversing the damage the transfer has caused. The money was not immediately transferred back and I have yet to see an HR plan for dealing with the 12 positions that ECE had to hire to administer the program. This decision has cost this government millions and millions of dollars when it did not have to.

Mr. Speaker, this is consensus government. The last Regular Member’s Caucus told government not to proceed. Motions were passed and ignored.

Mr. Speaker, lessons need to be learned, responsibility has to be taken and in the case of the transfer of the Social Housing Policy, I sure hope Cabinet was taking some good notes. Mr. Speaker, they’ll have to listen to the wishes of the Regular Members because we speak for the people of the

Northwest Territories and those who we represent. Thank you.

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing Policy

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay . The honourable Member for Hay River South , Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Diversity Of Challenges Facing Housing Corporation Staff And Clients

Members’ Statements

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As you can see, we’ve chosen today, as a group of resident Members, to talk about housing, the delivery of housing in the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Speaker, it is a daunting and big challenge to balance the interests of the people who need housing, with our policies, with trying to reward people who are diligent and who are trying their hardest, and those who sometimes are a frustration to the system, and perhaps even may I go as far as to say may abuse the good heartedness and the good policies of this government. It is trying to find that balance of rewarding the people who need housing with housing units and who are responsible and, at the same time, Mr. Speaker, having enough flexibility and enough balance in the system that we are good stewards of these resources as a government.

Mr. Speaker, not only is this a challenging task for the Minister and the folks at the Housing Corporation, but also when you get down to the local housing organizations. I know that people are doing their best, but these are challenging situations. Every tenant is an individual and their situation is individual. It’s very difficult to make across-the-board policies, because sometimes things happen. I’ve stood in this House many times and given examples of people who have moved away, who’ve come back to town, who have to now wait for the six-month waiting period to get into social housing.

There are many, many instances where I believe we need to give someone, whether that is one person or our managers, the discretionary latitude to make judgment calls based on the circumstances before them. It is not all neat and tidy. As diverse as our clients are in housing, so are our communities.

I see the need in small communities where the Housing Corporation is the only landlord in town -- that is one scenario -- to market communities where people do have options and they require housing. But the policies in these two very diverse sets of circumstances in communities are also, in my opinion, not significantly enough taken into consideration with the creation of policy and how we deliver housing in the Northwest Territories.

These are challenging situations. I don’t pretend to have all the answers. I would like to thank the Housing Corporation for the work that they do and

also the LHOs for the good work they do on the front line on our behalf.

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Diversity Of Challenges Facing Housing Corporation Staff And Clients

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen . The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe , Mr. Beaulieu .

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Common Sense Approach To The Delivery Of Housing Programs

Members’ Statements

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

I’d like to start by quoting some people across the NWT:

“Houses are built and sit empty, the system doesn’t work...”

“Housing is beyond frustration for small communities.”

“You are losing money just letting houses sit empty.”

“There seems to be a serious flaw in the approach, if it means housing, communities develop their own policies...that may be the best thing to do.”

“Maybe direct funding for First Nations from the federal government is the way to go.”

Those were quotes from the Dene National Assembly this summer in Fort Good Hope. As you can see, the First Nations are not happy with the way things are run by the NWT Housing Corporation.

There was a lot of talk about communities developing their own programs, and programs that would work in their communities, and programs that would address housing issues at the community level. The communities do not understand why a senior on a fixed income well below $20,000 per year lives in a unit that’s deteriorating every year and the NWT Housing Corporation advises them there is no money, yet they see $300,000 homes the Housing Corporation has built sitting empty for years.

The NWT Housing Corporation must change its mindset and actually develop programs that will help people. The Housing Corporation must not be about spending money to build as many houses as possible. It should be about spending money to help people. The Housing Corporation must not develop policies and programs that do not work and stick with those policies and programs no matter what.

As you can see, the Housing Corporation can paint a house and change the windows even if the roof has blown off the house, because the program says to paint the house and change the window. In other words, the NWT Housing Corporation has removed common sense from their delivery and only follows a set of policies that do not work.

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Common Sense Approach To The Delivery Of Housing Programs

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu . The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre , Mr. Hawkins .

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Affordable And Accessible Housing In Yellowknife

Members’ Statements

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I also want to talk about housing in Yellowknife.

According to the 2009 Housing Needs Survey, there are 6,742 households in Yellowknife. While the city is often overlooked in discussions about housing in the NWT, I note that this is where most of the households are located in the North.

It is true Yellowknife housing is different from the housing issues in other NWT communities. The survey identified that 14 percent of Yellowknife households have affordability issues. That means there are 928 households struggling to come up with that 30 percent or more to help cover the costs of things like mortgage or rent, electricity, water, heating, and even property taxes. You can see that clearly Yellowknife has an affordability issue.

In Yellowknife there are 289 public housing units. I see in the proposed capital plan that housing is proposing to replace one multi-family unit and they’re looking at retrofitting 25 family units. These actions don’t seem to be targeting the affordability issue at all.

Some may wonder why should we care about affordability as an issue compared to other things such as suitability and, certainly, adequacy. However, we know that the lack of affordability in Yellowknife means that when someone was thinking about moving to the NWT -- it’s either for a job or to unite with family -- they can certainly be overwhelmed by the housing challenges and consider changing their plans. We all know that the cost of living is very difficult.

The same is true in small and regional communities. If a family from one regional centre with employment, perhaps maybe even at a mine, thinks about moving to Yellowknife and that becomes impossible because of the high cost, they can easily relocate to Edmonton or Grande Prairie because they can find affordable housing. Affordable housing, I say again.

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Affordable And Accessible Housing In Yellowknife

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins . The honourable Member for Nunakput , Mr. Jacobson .

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Economic Rent Calculations For Nunakput Communities

Members’ Statements

Jackie Jacobson

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Members of this House hear no end of problems with public housing. Every community in my riding hears the same story. What really gets me, though, is when this government discourages people from working. For example, if you live in public housing in Sachs Harbour and you get a job, you’re going to pay what they call economic rent. I don’t know what economic rent is all about, because hardly anybody can afford it. We’re talking about $3,000 a month plus electricity and water for a three-bedroom house in Sachs Harbour, which could add up to $4,000 a month for a four-bedroom unit.

That reward, where you’re lucky enough to get your job, you’ll pay as much as public housing would pay for a $750,000 home in Yellowknife. That’s a shame.

I don’t know how this NWT Housing Corporation comes up with so-called economic rent for Sachs Harbour and the communities, but fairness and affordability don’t seem to have anything to do with it. People get a new job and this kind of rent does not pay. They literally cannot afford to work.

The big problem that results is sky-high rent in public housing more than people who are in arrears with the government, basically putting people in debt with the NWT Housing Corporation as soon as they go to work. We have to do something about this. We’re always preaching about creating jobs in our small communities. If the people want to keep working, we must have a reasonable rent scale.

At the appropriate time I will have questions for the Minister.

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Economic Rent Calculations For Nunakput Communities

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Jacobson . The honourable Member for Frame Lake , Ms. Bisaro .

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Comprehensive Review Of Housing Corporation Activities And Policies

Members’ Statements

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We’ve heard already today from other Members how much housing in the NWT is in difficulty. There are lots of problems: inconsistent application of guidelines, policies which are fine in theory but do not work in reality, people living rent free who have the means to pay, people quitting good jobs so their income stays down and their rent stays at a workable level, people have accumulated huge arrears because their rent assessments are incorrect or unadjusted, people denied public housing when vacant homes exist in the community, people unable to access adequate housing when their apprehended children are ready to be returned to them. The list is endless.

In numerous meetings with NWT Housing Corporation Ministers and staff over my time here --

three short years, but sometimes it feels like three very long years -- I and other Regular Members have consistently asked for flexibility in the Housing Corporation’s approach to the application of their programs and policies. I know that on more than one occasion I have asked the Minister to do an all-inclusive review of the corporation’s activities and policies.

In the 2008 Auditor General’s Report on the NWT Housing Corporation, Ms. Fraser was quite critical of the corporation. The NWT Housing Corporation presented a response to the Auditor General’s findings and I was hopeful that some comprehensive evaluation and review of the corporation’s policies and practices would come to fruition. There has not been any move in that direction and it is desperately needed, even more so since the responsibility for rent assessments was transferred back to the Housing Corporation from Education, Culture and Employment.

I did a search of Hansard and it turned up two commitments made by the Minister for the Housing Corporation made in this House, one from February 11th of this year to review programs, and later a

second from May 20th to review rent scales. Both

are necessary but they’re only part of what is required.

The Minister and the president of the NWT Housing Corporation must acknowledge that a thorough and comprehensive analysis of the programs, policies and procedures is overdue. They need to test the suitability of each of those for our residents. They must determine if they are still relative and appropriate at this stage of the evolution of our Territory. I believe many are not working as they should and if something’s not working, changes must be made until it does work.

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Comprehensive Review Of Housing Corporation Activities And Policies

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro . Item 4, reports of standing and special committees. Item 5, returns to oral questions. Item 6, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes , Mr. Robert McLeod .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to take this opportunity to recognize in the gallery some LHO managers, some tenant relations officers, some assistant managers. I had the opportunity to meet with them yesterday. I’ll tell you one thing, they’re not shy about sharing their views. That was much appreciated and it helps me do my job a lot better.

Joining us in the gallery today are: from Ulukhaktok, Sadie Joss; Elaine Blake, manager in Tsiigehtchic; Jim White from the Yellowknife Housing Authority; Stephan Folker from the Yellowknives Dene First Nation; Agatha Laboucan from Lutselk’e Housing

Authority; Veryl Gruben from the Tuktoyaktuk Housing Association; Elizabeth Ann McKay from the Fort Resolution Housing Authority; Melanie Louie from the Hamlet of Fort Liard Social Housing; Kim Olsen, manager of the Fort Smith Housing Authority; Donna McLean is a manager of the Hay River Housing Authority; Roland Rogers is the manager of the Aklavik Housing Association; Keith Dowling is the manager of the Paulatuk Housing Association; Ms.

Rosemary Vandell is the manager of the Fort Providence Housing Association; Betty Firth is the manager of the Fort McPherson Housing Association; Eleanor Mitchell-Firth, also here from Fort McPherson Housing Association; Rose Dryneck here from Behchoko. We also have with us Angela Grandjambe, manager of Fort Good Hope Housing; and Phebie Kenny, manager of the Deline Housing Association. I would like to welcome you all to the gallery and I hope you’re enjoying the proceedings.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe , Mr. Beaulieu .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

I’d like to recognize Agatha Laboucan and Elizabeth Ann McKay from the local housing organizations in Lutselk’e and Fort Resolution.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

The honourable Member for Monfwi , Mr. Lafferty .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

I would like to recognize the second-year Aurora College social work students coming in for a tour. Recognizing them and welcoming them to the gallery, to the Assembly.

Amanda Anthony from Yellowknife; Stefany Bulmer from Yellowknife; Billi-Rai Driscoll from Yellowknife; Fay Erasmus from Behchoko; Stephanie Hiedl from Yellowknife, and Inuvik, I believe; Christine King from Yellowknife; Bianca Kotchea from Fort Liard; Melissa McDonald from Inuvik; Savanna McKay-Larocque from Hay River; Julia Naedzo from Behchoko; Jaleesa Paulette from Fort Smith; Elizabeth Purchase from Yellowknife; Pamela Weeks-Beaton from Yellowknife and formerly Behchoko; and Bruce Stewart, instructor of social work at Aurora College.

I would also like to recognize one of my constituents, Rose Dryneck from Behchoko.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

The honourable Member for Frame Lake , Ms. Bisaro .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

It’s my pleasure today to recognize Mr. Jim White, who is representing the Yellowknife Housing Authority. We all have housing in our Yellowknife ridings, so I know he works on our behalf. I’d like to thank him for that.

Following up on your welcome of Mr. Whitford, I’d like to say it’s good to see you here again.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

The honourable Member for Deh Cho , Mr. Michael McLeod .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s good to see all the visitors here in the gallery. The Housing Minister indicated I had a constituent here and I was trying to figure out who was Ms. Mary, but I finally figured out it was Rose Vandell from Fort Providence. I’d like to welcome her here. I also want to welcome a former colleague, Tony Whitford, who’s now not a one-man army but a one-man navy…

---Laughter

…and for sure he’s a force to be reckoned with. I’d like to welcome him here today. Thank you.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Nunakput , Mr. Jacobson .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Jackie Jacobson

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to welcome today Ms. Sadie Joss from Ulukhaktok, and Keith Dowling, the housing manager from Ulukhaktok. It’s not very often I have family in the House, too, so it’s good to see my housing manager from Tuk and also my cousin too. Thank you.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Jacobson . The honourable Member for Hay River South , Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to recognize Savanna McKay-Larocque. I am happy to see she’s in the Social Work Program, following in the footsteps of two of her aunties who have been long-time social workers, Terry McPherson and Anne Gill in Hay River. It’s good to see Savanna here today. I also recognize Donna McLean, who is currently the manager of the Hay River Housing Authority but has worked for the Housing Authority for so long I actually can’t remember a time when she didn’t work for them. She is a very long-time employee of the Housing Authority. She was in charge before she was even the manager.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen . The honourable Member for Weledeh , Mr. Bromley .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, would like to welcome Captain Tony Whitford to the House and hope his home renovations are going well. I would also like to recognize Mr. Bruce Stewart, the instructor for the social programs staff -- he’s a constituent of Weledeh -- and also all of his students and the LHO representatives from everywhere. Mahsi.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bromley . The honourable Member for Nahendeh , Mr. Menicoche .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to recognize two Fort Liard residents in the gallery here today. First is Ms. Melanie Louie. Welcome to the gallery. I also recognize that she’s with the Fort Liard District Education Authority. As well, best wishes this year

to Bianca Kotchea in the Social Work Program, who’s in the gallery today. Mahsi cho.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche . The honourable Member for Kam Lake , Mr. Ramsay .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, would like to welcome all the visitors in the gallery today. It’s always nice to have an audience with us. As well, I’d like to recognize a Page from the riding of Kam Lake that we have with us during this sitting of the House: Ms. Sarah Sibbeston. She’s the granddaughter of former Member Nick Sibbeston and a current senator. Welcome, Sarah. Thank you.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay . The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre , Mr. Hawkins .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I was getting ready for the House today, I was walking down and I saw a man dressed in black and at first I thought was that Johnny Cash, but it turned out to be our wonderful Mr. Whitford. Noticing that he was in black, I was wondering if the Clerks Table was afraid he was going to take them up on the Honourary Clerk of the Table role, but he’s dressed finely in his captain’s uniform.

Mr. Speaker, lastly, I’d like to recognize the Mildred Hall Pages who have been serving us quite well here for the last few days. Thank you for their work and I appreciate them here.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins . The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , Mr. Krutko .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, would like to recognize the housing managers and the people who work for our housing authorities in our communities: Elaine Blake, the housing manager from Tsiigehtchic. Welcome, Elaine. Roland Rogers, the manager from Aklavik. Welcome, Roland. Betty Firth, the manager from Fort McPherson, who’s been there for many moons. Eleanor Firth, who’s also with the authority. I’d like to welcome you and welcome all of you who I’ve basically had an opportunity to work with in the past. Mahsi cho.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . If we’ve missed anyone in the gallery today, welcome to the House. I hope you’re enjoying the proceedings. It’s always nice to see a good audience in here.

Item 7, acknowledgements. Item 8, oral questions. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , Mr. Krutko .

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Question 280-16(5): Regional And Territorial Rental Rates For Public Housing Units

Oral Questions

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In regard to my Member’s statement, I touched on the area of maximum unit rents that are charged across the Northwest Territories. It’s a similar issue we addressed in regard to our power rates in the Northwest Territories, in which our rates are different in every community and we have some 28 different power rates in the Northwest Territories and we’re now trying to remedy that situation and looking at three rate zones.

I think that’s something that we should also consider when it comes to rental rates in our communities, especially if we could look at regional rates for the different regions from the Beaufort-Delta to the Sahtu to the North Slave, South Slave. I think we have to realize that there is definitely...(inaudible)...especially when individuals that we’re really talking about are the people paying the maximum rent, are the professions that usually come to our communities, need to be accommodated through social housing, and those are the people that definitely can see the difference.

I used the illustration of Fort McPherson and Tsiigehtchic, which is only half an hour apart, but in regard to the maximum rate in Tsiigehtchic, where basically they’re paying $3,700 and in Fort McPherson where it’s $2,500. So there’s a $1,200 difference in the maximum rate just between those two communities which are half an hour apart.

I’d like to ask the Minister is that something that his department can seriously consider in the line of the deferential differences when we talk about bringing down the cost of living in our communities, but more importantly, accommodating those people in our communities who are paying the highest rent and, more importantly, accommodating the region as a whole. Thank you.

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Question 280-16(5): Regional And Territorial Rental Rates For Public Housing Units

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . The honourable Minister responsible for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, Mr. Robert McLeod .

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Question 280-16(5): Regional And Territorial Rental Rates For Public Housing Units

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With some of the rates that are charged in the communities, obviously, a community that has more units has more units to spread out the cost of operating in that community and the smaller communities with less units, they have less units to spread out the costs. That’s why a lot of the costs are higher in those communities. However, at the NWT Housing Corporation we are considering looking at the idea of regional rents to spread it out throughout the regions. It is something that we are looking at. Thank you.

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Question 280-16(5): Regional And Territorial Rental Rates For Public Housing Units

Oral Questions

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, I’d like to thank the Minister for that, because I think that is how we’re going to have to approach it. We have to do it region by region and try to look at the number of units in the different regions and look at an overall recovery cost across the board.

Like I say, we have some 2,200 units throughout the Northwest Territories and if we can break that down by region and try to have a rate that’s accommodating, I think, at the end of the goal, I’d like to ask, working forward, that we do have a territorial rate at some point going forward. I’d like to ask the Minister if that’s something that we can look forward to. Start off with the regional rates and eventually the goal is to have a territorial rate. Thank you.

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Question 280-16(5): Regional And Territorial Rental Rates For Public Housing Units

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Mr. Speaker, obviously, we’d have to look at the regional rates first and see how they work out. There will be, in some areas, where the rents in some of the communities will be higher to balance off the rental rate. I would suggest we look at the regional model first and see how that works and if there’s an appetite further down the road to look at a territorial-wide model, then that may be something for Housing in the future to consider. Thank you.

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Question 280-16(5): Regional And Territorial Rental Rates For Public Housing Units

Oral Questions

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, again, I think that we also have to look at how we distribute the overall O and M dollars that are distributed to the different local authorities, but more importantly, look at the revenues that we do receive by way of the federal CMHC funding. Again, that’s another area that we have to look at. If we’re going to do this, we also have to look at the allocation of funds to the different LHOs so they are able to operate, but more importantly, look at the overall maintenance costs, the savings that we could basically consolidate…

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Question 280-16(5): Regional And Territorial Rental Rates For Public Housing Units

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Do you have a question, Mr. Krutko ?

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Question 280-16(5): Regional And Territorial Rental Rates For Public Housing Units

Oral Questions

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, I’d like to ask the Minister, can he also look at the overall operational costs that are being provided to the different LHOs and, if possible, bring them in line so that we are able to get a better return on our investment by those dollars? Thank you.

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Question 280-16(5): Regional And Territorial Rental Rates For Public Housing Units

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Mr. Speaker, it is part of our plan to look at the overall delivery of housing across the Northwest Territories and see how we could improve our product, see how we can best support our LHOs with the declining funding. They are facing some challenges in their communities. Also with the rental arrears, that’s also another challenge that they are facing. It is something that looking at the overall picture and doing an overall review are issues that we have to look at. Thank you.

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Question 280-16(5): Regional And Territorial Rental Rates For Public Housing Units

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Krutko .

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Question 280-16(5): Regional And Territorial Rental Rates For Public Housing Units

Oral Questions

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again, I believe we do have to look at this territorial issue. We do have the highest rate, which is Paulatuk, which is $4,600 for a five-bedroom unit, and the lowest rate is Fort Smith at $1,600 for a five-bedroom unit. I believe we do have to look at this as a territorial issue, similar to the approach we are taking with power rates. Thank you.

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Question 280-16(5): Regional And Territorial Rental Rates For Public Housing Units

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . I don’t know if I heard a question there, but I will allow the Minister to respond. Mr. McLeod.

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Question 280-16(5): Regional And Territorial Rental Rates For Public Housing Units

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I did commit that we will, first of all, look at the overall regionalization of rent and further on down the road, if we feel the need arises, then we will look at a territorial-wide system. Thank you.

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Question 280-16(5): Regional And Territorial Rental Rates For Public Housing Units

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Weledeh , Mr. Bromley .

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Question 281-16(5): Accumulated Public Housing Rental Arrears

Oral Questions

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are also for the Minister of the NWT Housing Corporation . Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the Minister’s transfer of the responsibility for public housing rent collections from ECE back to the Housing Corporation. While a modest beginning, the Minister must now act to clean up the wreckage left behind by that failed and destructive policy.

There are now tens of thousands of dollars of debt for most of each family that is now in rental arrears, yet that debt is an illusion resulting from an income documentation process that was unrealistic, unworkable and, in many cases, humiliating. What aggressive action is the Minister taking to roll back that grossly inflated debt? Mahsi.

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Question 281-16(5): Accumulated Public Housing Rental Arrears

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bromley . The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation , Mr. Robert McLeod .

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Question 281-16(5): Accumulated Public Housing Rental Arrears

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There was some concern that, during the transfer over to ECE, there was a lot of arrears accumulated because people had to go to different places, and in some of the smaller communities they had to fax off their income. This is a discussion that I had with the LHO managers yesterday. There is always an opportunity for tenants to come back to the LHO as they are all starting to come back now, because the LHOs are doing their assessment and verify their income for that particular time.

If they verify their income, then adjustments will be made. So we will see a lot of the arrears come down, but then the onus is on the tenants to verify their income and Housing will do what they can to

make the adjustments and take some of the arrears off their books. Thank you.

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Question 281-16(5): Accumulated Public Housing Rental Arrears

Oral Questions

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, I understand the theory. The Minister has given us the theory but, as I said -- and perhaps the Minister didn’t hear in my statement earlier today -- I have constituents that have taken all of their pay stubs months ago into the Housing Corporation at least four months ago. They are sitting there waiting. They are paying $200 per month in rental arrears deductions, taken from the $800 left each month of disposable income. That is after rent and food for a family of seven. My constituent needs relief, Mr. Speaker. That is what we are talking about here.

Can the Minister tell me if he has a rental arrears SWAT team in place now who will actually go after these unreal debts and ease this misery that this failed policy has caused? Thank you.

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Question 281-16(5): Accumulated Public Housing Rental Arrears

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Mr. Speaker, we don’t have a SWAT team in place. The Member said that this has been going on for four months now. Today is actually the first that I have heard of it. If I had some communication with the Member, I may have been able to follow up on it and make sure that the tenants in his riding don’t have to wait so long for an answer.

I make a commitment to the Member. If we can discuss this afterwards, I will forward the information on to the proper people and see if we can have this dealt with as quickly as possible. Thank you.

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Question 281-16(5): Accumulated Public Housing Rental Arrears

Oral Questions

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments from the Minister. Mr. Speaker, I am profiling one example here. I am looking for a systemic response. I am sure the Minister understands that I appreciate his offer to help this family.

The situation of rental arrears is obviously urgent and stressful for both individuals and for the local housing offices. Each housing office’s total rental arrears have exploded, again because of this situation. The Housing Corporation reacts by reducing LHOs’ subsequent funding according to the amount of uncollected rents. As a result, one housing association has come close to declaring bankruptcy and handing public policy responsibility back to the department. Is the Minister ready to take over housing delivery from bankrupt associations all over the NWT? What is he doing now to prevent this? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 281-16(5): Accumulated Public Housing Rental Arrears

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Mr. Speaker, we will have no bankrupt authorities across the Northwest Territories. Ones that have faced some challenges because of the funding and the way it was flowing, we are working with them to try and get the situation resolved.

We have a stabilization fund that we are hoping to work with some of the authorities on to get them up

and operating. We are quite confident that, with the transfer back to the LHO and a more, as far as the funding goes, if a more stable source of funding to the LHOs I think we are going to see huge improvements, but we don’t anticipate any authorities across the Northwest Territories going bankrupt. Thank you.

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Question 281-16(5): Accumulated Public Housing Rental Arrears

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. A short, final supplementary, Mr. Bromley .

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Question 281-16(5): Accumulated Public Housing Rental Arrears

Oral Questions

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was going to ask about the 30 percent of gross income being unrealistic and crushing, but I think I will hold off on that and just ask the Minister in respect to these rental arrears.

It is stressful. It is urgent. What sort of time frame are we talking about for these people that are living under these crushing debts of tens of thousands of dollars with very modest incomes? They need relief. When will it happen? Thank you.

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Question 281-16(5): Accumulated Public Housing Rental Arrears

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Mr. Speaker, speaking territorial-wide, obviously we have heard of the situation with the one constituent which four months is an awful long time to wait or hear an answer on providing all the information that we have asked them to provide. Looking at it territorial-wide, obviously it is going to be a challenge.

With all the folks coming back to the LHOs now, getting their assessments done, there is a lot more of that face to face. They will have an opportunity to bring in some verification of income. That will be taken care of. The adjustments will be made. We will do our part as the Housing Corporation and LHOs. We will do our

part in sharing that.

A lot of the arrears are written down, but we are asking tenants to do their

part in verifying income. I think, with them coming into the LHOs, we are going to see a lot of the arrears.

We all realize that there was a $4 million increase in the amount of public housing arrears during the transition period. We are hoping to get the numbers stabilized and actually have a true arrears number. Thank you.

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Question 281-16(5): Accumulated Public Housing Rental Arrears

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Great Slave , Mr. Abernethy .

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Question 282-16(5): Need For Flexibility In The Administration Of Housing Policy

Oral Questions

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are for the Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation as well.

I talked in my Member’s statement about flexibility of programs. The lack of flexibility is, I think, a problem across the government as a whole, not just the Housing Corporation. But there are certainly

certain areas within the Housing Corporation where the programming lacks flexibility.

I highlighted in my Member’s statement one example where the programs are set up in such a way that it doesn’t encourage tenants to go back to work or take advantage of short-term employment opportunities or even, in some cases, longer term employment opportunities, because they feel that they get penalized almost immediately. As soon as they start collecting money, the rents pop up to maximum rents, or lowered, depending on the amount of money they are bringing in. Regardless, often it is better for them to not work and maintain a stable life than to work and have to get hit with so much financial expense immediately.

Has the Housing Corporation done any research into the program, especially this particular program, about rent collections to ensure that they have some flexibility that will allow them to assess each situation on its own merit and work with the clients that have arrears, that don’t have arrears, so that they can maximize work opportunities and not fall behind but get ahead for a change? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 282-16(5): Need For Flexibility In The Administration Of Housing Policy

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy . The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation , Mr. McLeod.

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Question 282-16(5): Need For Flexibility In The Administration Of Housing Policy

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is an argument that we’ve heard a lot of across the Northwest Territories and all my visits to the communities saying that the rent is a disincentive to work. We hear stories where folks have been paying $32 a month, they get a seasonal job, their rents increase for the time they’re working and that is a policy that the LHOs are following.

I’ve had some discussions with senior officials, but we have to understand, though, that for the amount of time they’re not working and they’re paying $32 a month, we’re subsidizing them a huge amount and during the time that their working is their opportunity to pay back some of the subsidy that they’ve received. Because once they lose their seasonal job, they’ll be down to $32 a month again, and again Housing will be subsidizing them. So it is an argument that we’ve heard a lot of across the Northwest Territories and one that we recognize is a bit of a challenge.

Obviously, hearing it so many times, it’s one that we have to look at quite seriously. Thank you.

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Question 282-16(5): Need For Flexibility In The Administration Of Housing Policy

Oral Questions

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

I hear the Minister and I understand what the Minister is saying, but at the same time individuals who aren’t receiving subsidies, their salaries may change over the year, there may be peak months, there may be depressed months, bills may change, but when I have a month where I happen to make some extra money, I get to put that money where I want. I get to put it towards debts if I choose or I get to buy myself a new guitar if I choose.

Whereas these

individuals -- and I’m not talking necessarily seasonal, I’m talking really short-term employment opportunities -- when these individuals have an opportunity to get a little bit of money, they can’t get ahead because we take it from them and put it towards their rent right away. I fully understand, fully understand the importance of collecting from people, but it’s important that we give these people an opportunity as well.

So can I get the Minister to commit to researching this situation, to investigating this situation and come to us with alternatives? It may not be the same for everybody. It needs to be flexible. So will the Minister do that for us? Thank you.

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Question 282-16(5): Need For Flexibility In The Administration Of Housing Policy

Oral Questions

An Hon. Member

Great question.

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Question 282-16(5): Need For Flexibility In The Administration Of Housing Policy

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

As part of the rent scale review, I mean, this is one of the things that we were hoping to have a look at, is exactly what the Member and a bunch of other Members, and not just Members, it’s actually people across the Northwest Territories. So it’s a message that we’ve heard and it’s one that obviously we’re going to have to have a look at and see if this is something that we should consider doing. Thank you.

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Question 282-16(5): Need For Flexibility In The Administration Of Housing Policy

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Your final supplementary, Mr. Abernethy .

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Question 282-16(5): Need For Flexibility In The Administration Of Housing Policy

Oral Questions

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I will keep it short. When might we, as Members, and when might the public start to see this research start and when might we see some sort of recommendations coming out of this review? Thank you.

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Question 282-16(5): Need For Flexibility In The Administration Of Housing Policy

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

As we speak we’re doing a review of the rent scale right now and this is a discussion I’ve had with senior management over at the Housing Corporation. As for an exact time frame of this particular one, I know we’re hoping to have the rent scale review completed and implemented by April 1st . But as far as the actual

questions the Member is asking, I’m not sure of an exact time frame. I will confirm that and I will pass it on to committee. Thank you.

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Question 282-16(5): Need For Flexibility In The Administration Of Housing Policy

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Nahendeh , Mr. Menicoche .

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Question 283-16(5): Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Oral Questions

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to ask my question to the Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation .

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Question 283-16(5): Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Oral Questions

An Hon. Member

No way.

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Question 283-16(5): Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Oral Questions

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

I spoke earlier about the eligibility and it’s a concern as I travel around to my communities within my riding. A lot of people are saying that they’ve applied, they’ve got their rejection letter saying that they’re not eligible. So it

raises the concern to me, Mr. Speaker, just how many people are eligible for NWT Housing programs. We’ve got a community core need income threshold level. So I’d like to ask the Minister just what range of a client are we looking for. How much can they make? Well, he can pick one of the communities in my riding. How much can they make and what’s the lower limit they can make too, Mr. Speaker? Thank you.

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Question 283-16(5): Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche . The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation , Mr. Robert McLeod .

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Question 283-16(5): Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s our intent to try and get as many people into homeownership as possible. That’s why I’ve asked the corporation to come up with a few different options as to how we can fit more people in the program. The core need income threshold is one of the arguments that we’ve heard quite a bit. It varies from the different communities as to the number of bedrooms in that particular community, the maximum construction costs. I have a list of all the core need income thresholds for all the communities across the Northwest Territories. I can commit to the Member that I can have copies printed off and distributed to the Regular Members. Thank you.

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Question 283-16(5): Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Oral Questions

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

In some of our communities in the Northwest Territories we did get some new houses, but the number of affordability problems continues to increase and this trend raises questions about eligibility for housing programs. So just once again, perhaps if I ask a different question a different way, Mr. Speaker, if I can. The current intake was completed October 14th . Does the

Minister have enough statistics to compare the number of clients that applied this year as compared to the last three years? Thank you.

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Question 283-16(5): Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

The applications that we’ve received, as Members know, the deadline was October 15th . The applications that we’ve

received for PATH, that’s the actual homeownership, we’ve got 110 assessments that we’re doing right now. As far as applications for the HELP units, we have 183 territorial-wide that we’re doing the assessments on right now. Thank you.

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Question 283-16(5): Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Oral Questions

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

I was just trying to get a comparison to the intake for this year and how many people are actually eligible as opposed to the intake we took from last year or, say, the year before. Thank you.

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Question 283-16(5): Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

The numbers that I gave were the applications that we received for the coming fiscal year, the ‘11-12 fiscal year. Those assessments are still underway. We’ve only had about a week and a half since the close of the applications. So as far as the actual numbers that were approved, we don’t have that number yet. Once the assessments are done, then we’ll have

the number of applicants that have been approved. Thank you.

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Question 283-16(5): Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Your final supplementary, Mr. Menicoche .

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Question 283-16(5): Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Oral Questions

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. In terms of the eligibility guidelines, should you have a community that doesn’t have enough applicants or else a lot of applicants are being rejected because of those guidelines, is the Minister willing to consider reassessing or relaxing his guidelines so that people in the upper limit, people that are over this net can be eligible for programming and some flexibility for the lower incomes as well? I believe that the people who can afford it should be in those units. Thank you.

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Question 283-16(5): Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

I agree with the Member 100 percent, that people that can afford and are able to look after those units should be in there. That’s why I’ve given direction to the NWT Housing Corporation to have a look at the number of clients that may be over this net. If we started going too low, the lowest net, then I’m just afraid we may be setting some people up for failure and we may get some quick claim units because once they’re in there and realize what a cost it is to pay for your own fuel and power and other utilities, then they realize that there was a lot more to it than they thought.

But I have asked the corporation to look at the number and I’m quite confident that we’ll get a few more people that we can get into a lot of these vacant units and into homeownership in the NWT. Thank you.

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Question 283-16(5): Eligibility Criteria For Housing Programs

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Kam Lake , Mr. Ramsay .

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Question 284-16(5): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are for the Minister of the Housing Corporation . Getting back to my Member’s statement, obviously the decision of the last government to transfer responsibility for social housing was a decision of the last government, Mr. Speaker. For however long I think about this, I’ll never ever comprehend or understand why that decision was made in the first place, but I want to get back to something else I spoke about in my statement. That is responsibility.

This government was elected in 2007 and it took them over two years to reverse that decision. One of the first meetings that Regular Members had with this government early on in the life of this government was to address the transfer of that Social Housing Policy from Housing to ECE. When that $30 million was taken from the Housing Corporation by ECE it seemed to happen just like that, in the blink of an eye. I’m wondering why it is

taking so long to get the money back to the Housing Corporation from ECE.

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Question 284-16(5): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay . The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation , Mr. Robert McLeod .

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Question 284-16(5): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Interjection

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Question 284-16(5): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

I’m getting tired.

---Interjection

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Question 284-16(5): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Anybody want to fill in for me, go ahead.

Mr. Speaker, as far as transferring the money back to the NWT Housing Corporation, Members will see that I think during this session as part of the supp process, as far as the reason it took so long, there were some details we had to work out with ECE. The actual block of money for the administration of the public housing rental subsidy is going back to the Housing Corporation and it will be done by the end of this Assembly.

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Question 284-16(5): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

I just wondered if the Minister could explain why one government could just walk in and take the money, even though, Members, I recall there are a few Members on the other side of the House that were here at the time, we initially denied the request to take that money. However, it was done anyway and it just happened just like that. I’d like to ask the Minister how it is that one government could easily take that money and transfer it and with this government it’s taking its time to get the money back to the Housing Corporation. If it could happen quickly then, why can’t it happen as quickly now?

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Question 284-16(5): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

That process was during the 15th . I can’t speak for the amount of time

it took for it to go over then.

Being a Regular Member in the 15th Assembly,

there were a lot of motions coming forward to transfer the responsibility of assessments back to the LHOs. One of the first things that we did as the 16th Assembly was try to get the responsibilities

back to the LHOs, because we heard the two motions that we heard from the people across the Northwest Territories. We heard from LHOs that thought it should be back with the LHOs.

The transfer of the money back to the Housing Corporation is an item that’s before the House. I can assure the Member that it will be something that will be completed by the end of this session.

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Question 284-16(5): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Ultimately the government did make the right decision and listened to the Regular Members of this House and listened to the public across the Northwest Territories who suggested that it was the wrong decision. I’m glad that they did eventually listen.

I’d like to ask the Minister, I know that he’s privy to the discussions on the 11 or 12 positions that were needed at ECE to administer the program. Even though it doesn’t fall under the mandate of the Housing Corporation, I know he’s been involved in discussions with his counterpart in ECE on those positions and what the status is of the HR plan dealing with those positions at ECE.

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Question 284-16(5): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

That was part of the discussions with ECE, was the positions. When it was transferred over, I believe the Housing Corporation gave up five or six positions, if I’m not mistaken, as part of the transfer back. I believe we’re getting the five or six positions back with the Housing Corporation.

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Question 284-16(5): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Final supplementary, Mr. Ramsay .

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Question 284-16(5): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to ask the Minister when Regular Members might be able to see a comprehensive human resource plan related to the provision of the Social Housing Policy.

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Question 284-16(5): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

The details of the money transfer are going to be in the supp documents that we are discussing. As far as a comprehensive human resource plan, we are more than willing to sit with the Regular Members, as we have on a couple of occasions, and give them briefings on what the Housing Corporation is doing. I can commit to the Member that we can have the human resource plan as part of any future briefings that committee may wish.

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Question 284-16(5): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe , Mr. Beaulieu .

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Question 285-16(5): Transfer Of Housing Program Delivery To Community Governments

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker. In my Member’s statement today I spoke of some failed programs that have cost the Housing Corporation or this government millions of dollars, with no actual reduction as far as core needs go because the units are not being used. I have questions for the Minister of Housing . Would the Minister consider transferring homeownership responsibilities to the communities, along with the appropriate resources?

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Question 285-16(5): Transfer Of Housing Program Delivery To Community Governments

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu . The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation , Mr. Robert McLeod .

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Question 285-16(5): Transfer Of Housing Program Delivery To Community Governments

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That’s always something that we’re willing to listen to. If communities have a desire to take over the provision of delivering public housing, then that’s something, obviously, we’d have to listen to. We’ve had one community that has tried it and realized that it’s a bigger challenge than they realized and it was transferred back to the Housing

Corporation. We’re always open to listening to discussions as to the delivery of housing in the communities.

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Question 285-16(5): Transfer Of Housing Program Delivery To Community Governments

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

The Minister said he would look into the transfer of responsibility for homeownership. If that can’t be done across the board, would the Minister look at it as a backup, a contribution agreement signed with either the local housing organizations or the aboriginal governments of the community to deliver homeownership programs in the communities?

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Question 285-16(5): Transfer Of Housing Program Delivery To Community Governments

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

The original question I thought the Member was referring to the transfer of the public housing delivery by, as I understood him, the Member means all things housing into the community, homeownership included. Obviously, again, as I said in my first response, it’s something that we would consider doing. If communities feel that they’re far enough along that they can effectively deliver housing programs in the community, then it’s obviously something that as a corporation we would have to obviously listen to.

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Question 285-16(5): Transfer Of Housing Program Delivery To Community Governments

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

As we’ve seen and heard in the House today, the peer programs that the Housing Corporation is delivering right now don’t seem to have a positive impact on the communities. Would the Minister be prepared to look at revamping all homeownership programs and separate programs between market and non-market communities?

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Question 285-16(5): Transfer Of Housing Program Delivery To Community Governments

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

One thing we hear across the Northwest Territories and probably one of the biggest employers and sources of funding that goes into each community is through housing, whether it be building new units or working for the local housing authorities. I have to disagree. I think there is a bit of a positive impact on the communities. I have seen communities where the LHOs have done all their own modernization and improvement instead of bringing contractors in. They keep people employed for the summer, six months, then they can qualify for other benefits. There is some positive impact.

There are challenges that housing faces. I can assure the Member as part of the whole Housing Choices evaluation, which we’re going to undertake soon, that we’re going to look at all areas in the delivery of homeownership across the Northwest Territories. If there are improvements that need to be made, then obviously we will make them.

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Question 285-16(5): Transfer Of Housing Program Delivery To Community Governments

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Final supplementary, Mr. Beaulieu .

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Question 285-16(5): Transfer Of Housing Program Delivery To Community Governments

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In all fairness, the Minister is correct; there are positive impacts to the delivery of housing at the community level in as far as employment for the community and a good business for some of the local contractors and so on. I don’t want the Minister to get me wrong. I was purely talking about the

impacts on the homeowners, not so much what happens with employment in the community.

If the Housing Corporation makes a decision to develop new programs, to revamp programs, would the Minister do this in consultation with the communities?

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Question 285-16(5): Transfer Of Housing Program Delivery To Community Governments

Oral Questions

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Obviously it would be unwise for us as a corporation to not listen to what people of the Northwest Territories have to say as far as provision of housing goes. It would be unwise of us not to listen to what Regular Members have to say as far as the provision and delivery of housing programs across the Territories. The short answer is yes, we would talk to as many people across the Territories and keep updating the Regular Members on those consultations as they happen.

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Question 285-16(5): Transfer Of Housing Program Delivery To Community Governments

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre , Mr. Hawkins .

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