Debates of Nov. 5th, 2013

This is page numbers 3347 – 3386 of the Hansard for the 17th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was commission .

Topics

Members Present

Prayer

Tabled Document 4-17(5): Northwest Territories Electoral Boundaries Commission 2013 Final Report

Referral Of Northwest Territories Electoral Boundaries Commission 2013 Final Report To Committee Of The Whole

Extended Adjournment Of The House To February 5, 2014

Appointment Of Languages Commissioner

Referral Of Northwest Territories Electoral Boundaries Commission 2013 Final Report To Committee Of The Whole

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Appoint New Electoral Boundaries Commission

Implementation Of 19 Electoral Districts Recommendation With Adjustment To Kam Lake And Yellowknife South District Boundaries

Committee Motion To Extend Sitting Hours

Recorded Vote

Legislation To Make Future Electoral Boundaries Commission Final Recommendations Binding, Deferred

Amendment To Committee Motion 3-17(5) To Require The Establishment Of An Electoral Boundaries Commission During The 18th Legislative Assembly

Committee Motion To Defer Committee Motion 3-17(5)

Report of Committee of the Whole

Orders of the Day

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

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---Prayer

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Prayer

Prayer

The Speaker

Jackie Jacobson

Good afternoon, colleagues. Members, I understand the will of the House is to stand down select orders of the day and to proceed to Committee of the Whole at an early opportunity. Mr. Yakeleya .

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Prayer

Prayer

Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to stand down the rules pertaining to our orders and proceed directly to item 14, tabling of documents.

---Unanimous consent granted

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Prayer

Prayer

The Speaker

Jackie Jacobson

Item 14, tabling of documents. Mr. Yakeleya .

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Tabled Document 4-17(5): Northwest Territories Electoral Boundaries Commission 2013 Final Report

Tabling of Documents

Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the Northwest Territories Electoral Boundaries Commission 2013 Final Report. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Tabled Document 4-17(5): Northwest Territories Electoral Boundaries Commission 2013 Final Report

Tabling of Documents

The Speaker

Jackie Jacobson

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya . Item 15, notices of motion. Mr. Yakeleya .

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Motion 2-17(5): Referral Of Northwest Territories Electoral Boundaries Commission 2013 Final Report To Committee Of The Whole

Notices of Motion

Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Thursday, November 7, 2013, I will move the following motion: I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake , that Tabled Document 4-17(5), Northwest Territories Electoral Boundaries Commission 2013 Final Report, be referred to Committee of the Whole for consideration today.

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The Speaker

Jackie Jacobson

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya . Mr. Yakeleya .

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Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to waive Rule 44 and proceed with the motion I gave notice of earlier today.

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The Speaker

Jackie Jacobson

Mr. Yakeleya , we are still on notices of motion. Mr. Yakeleya .

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Motion 3-17(5): Extended Adjournment Of The House To February 5, 2014

Notices of Motion

Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

I give notice that on Thursday, November 7, 2013, I will move the following motion: I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Thebacha , that, notwithstanding Rule 4, when this House adjourns on November 7, 2013, it shall be adjourned until Wednesday, February 5, 2014;

And further, that any time prior to February 5, 2014, if the Speaker is satisfied, after consultation with the Executive Council and Members of the Legislative Assembly, that the public interest requires that the House should meet at an earlier time during the adjournment, the Speaker may give notice and thereupon the House shall meet at the time stated in such notice and shall transact its business as it has been duly adjourned to that time.

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Motion 3-17(5): Extended Adjournment Of The House To February 5, 2014

Notices of Motion

The Speaker

Jackie Jacobson

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya . Mr. Ramsay .

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Motion 4-17(5): Appointment Of Languages Commissioner

Notices of Motion

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I give notice that on Thursday, November 7, 2013, I will move the following motion:

Now therefore I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , that pursuant to

Section 15 of the Official Languages Act of the Northwest Territories, Snookie Henrietta Catholique of Yellowknife be appointed as Languages Commissioner;

And further, that the appointment be effective December 1, 2013.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Motion 4-17(5): Appointment Of Languages Commissioner

Notices of Motion

The Speaker

Jackie Jacobson

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay . Mr. Yakeleya .

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Motion 4-17(5): Appointment Of Languages Commissioner

Notices of Motion

Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to waive Rule 44 and proceed with the motion I gave notice of earlier today.

---Unanimous consent granted

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Motion 4-17(5): Appointment Of Languages Commissioner

Notices of Motion

The Speaker

Jackie Jacobson

Item 16, notices of motion for first reading of bills. Item 17, motions. Mr. Yakeleya , please proceed with your motion.

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Motion 2-17(5): Referral Of Northwest Territories Electoral Boundaries Commission 2013 Final Report To Committee Of The Whole, Carried

Motions

Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

WHEREAS Tabled Document 4-17(5), Northwest Territories Electoral Boundaries Commission 2013 Final Report, has been tabled in this House;

NOW THEREFORE I MOVE, seconded by the honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake , that Tabled Document 4-17(5), Northwest Territories Electoral Boundaries Commission 2013 Final Report, be referred to Committee of the Whole for consideration today.

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Motion 2-17(5): Referral Of Northwest Territories Electoral Boundaries Commission 2013 Final Report To Committee Of The Whole, Carried

Motions

The Speaker

Jackie Jacobson

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya . To the motion.

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Motion 2-17(5): Referral Of Northwest Territories Electoral Boundaries Commission 2013 Final Report To Committee Of The Whole, Carried

Motions

Some Hon. Members

Question.

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Motion 2-17(5): Referral Of Northwest Territories Electoral Boundaries Commission 2013 Final Report To Committee Of The Whole, Carried

Motions

The Speaker

Jackie Jacobson

Question has been called.

---Carried

Tabled Document 4-17(5) is moved into Committee of the Whole for consideration today. Item 18, first reading of bills. Item 19, second reading of bills. Item 20, consideration in Committee of the Whole of bills and other matters: Tabled Document 1-17(5), Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditure), No. 1, 2014-2015; and Tabled Document 4-17(5), Northwest Territories Electoral Boundaries Commission 2013 Final Report, with Mrs. Groenewegen in the chair.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

I’d like to call Committee of the Whole to order. What is the wish of the committee today? Ms. Bisaro .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. We wish to deal with Tabled Document 4-17(5), final report of the Electoral Boundaries Commission.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro . Is committee agreed?

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Agreed, thank you. I will go straight to general comments on Tabled Document 4-17(5). General comments. Mr. Bromley .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Thank you, Madam Chair. I’m pleased to participate in this debate today and discussion of the final report. I’d like to thank the Electoral Boundaries Commission for their work.

Trying to penetrate this quagmire, it is certainly never an easy job or an easy process, but I think we do recognize that and try and provide some helpful guidelines, specifically the plus or minus 25 percent goal for fair representation; that is every riding should be within 25 percent of the mean population, the average number of people per riding in order to be considered fair representation, and that we should give consideration to the integrity of language and cultural groups as relevant factors in the considerations of these boundaries.

It’s clear from the past decisions that overrepresentation, that is where a riding comes in considerably below the 25 percent guideline from the mean number of people for all ridings, is acceptable;

whereas, under-representation, that is where the population is greater than 25 percent above the mean riding population, is much less so. This differentiation to me has always been perplexing as a situation, where a riding is highly overrepresented relative to other ridings seems to me as unfair, and certainly to all those people living in under-represented ridings. That’s a long and convoluted way, unfortunately, of saying I really think we should stick within the minus 25 percent to plus 25 percent guideline here, something that has not been done in the past.

As we’ve heard, MLAs provided guidance for the development of the electoral boundaries report and specifically requested consideration of three scenarios, solutions, with 18 MLAs or constituencies, or 19 or 21. To my mind, we really failed to provide sufficient guidance by stopping at that point. I believe we should have requested several options for each of these proposals. Of course, there probably are an infinite number of options or scenarios that could result. I think that by simply implying that one was sufficient, we failed a little bit in giving clear direction there.

As a result, we have three options that for me provide little satisfaction in terms of sufficient improvement in fair representation across all ridings. There are understandable reasons for this, some of which I’ve mentioned, but they give little comfort towards accepting the partial solutions that currently seem to be available to us in the final report.

One of the additional reasons, I think, is our unwillingness to cross language and cultural boundaries, at least in some areas, despite highly unfair representation numbers. It begs the question,

at what point does fair representation overcome cultural and language group considerations.

Again, using Weledeh as an example, the Yellowknives Dene First Nation of Ndilo and Detah have indicated their preference to me, and to the committee, I believe, to remain within a Yellowknife riding rather than being affiliated with more distant communities despite strong cultural ties with those other communities. To some degree, however, all of Yellowknife ridings host Aboriginal residents with a variety of cultural and language affiliations.

Despite changes made in the past, some ridings have remained substantially under-represented and a good example of this, again, is the Weledeh riding. Currently, it is the most disparate with a population at 42 percent above the main riding population for the NWT. Now, given other disparities such as Tu Nedhe, this means that a resident in Tu Nedhe has effectively had four times the representation that one of my constituents have had in Weledeh. Again, not a desirable situation.

Now, the population of Weledeh has been increasing throughout my six-year-plus term to date and it was clearly already under-represented from the start. As we speak, residential construction is rampant in Weledeh, particularly in the Niven Lake part of the constituency and I note that it’s also moving right along and I think it’s in Kam Lake.

Another under-represented riding is Monfwi, also substantially under-represented at almost 40 percent above the mean riding population. I believe it’s been under-represented, again, for a long time.

There have been some attempts to reduce the number of under-represented ridings with the options before us, although in Yellowknife all seven or eight proposed ridings cover just below the 25 percent mark in the options presented in the report. As indicated, with the considerable residential construction happening in parts of Yellowknife, you can expect that at least one or two will quickly grow to exceed the 25 percent guideline soon after we make a decision.

Population growth rate in ridings is one of the factors that should be considered in setting boundaries according to the act,

Section 9, and I did not see this discussed in the report.

Given a generally stable NWT population over recent years, population changes in ridings would be most likely to be caused by movements of people such as into regional centres or the capital. Ultimately, it is important for representation to reflect these population shifts.

Similarly, some ridings have remained highly overrepresented over time, including Tu Nedhe, Deh Cho and the Inuvik ridings as examples. There is a tendency for this overrepresentation to continue for all of these ridings in the options presented in the boundaries report. This is a bit mysterious to

me. Again, it seems to be acceptable to have people overrepresented for some reason by those making these sorts of recommendations.

Under the current situation, as things are now the status quo with 19 ridings, 10 of them are unfairly represented, five over and five under-represented. With the 18 seat option, it becomes four and one respectively. With 19, worst case, five and two that are under-represented, five over and two under. Finally, with 21 constituencies the most improvement is seeing three overrepresented and one under-represented. So, given that, my preference would be to support the scenario for 21 electoral districts, although, as I mentioned, I am not enamoured with any particular one.

Should we consider a 21 electoral district option? I think the most common concern I’ve heard is the additional cost, so I’d like to address that issue.

I think we do have a lot of representatives for a modest number of people. However, we are over a sixth of Canada and we represent an amazing diversity of peoples and cultures and languages and geographic areas. I believe the cost of fair and democratic representation is of the highest priority and a legitimate cost of democracy. Also, the cost would be a tiny fraction of the GNWT budget, which will likely average well over $1.8 billion over the course of the next eight years.

Finally, and less importantly in this case, the two new ridings proposed would be in Monfwi and Yellowknife and, as such, would be less costly than new ridings in other remote areas of the NWT, but again, the costs are very modest relative to the budget and the cost of good representation and democracy. While a 21 seat option does not address the Tu Nedhe issue of gross overrepresentation or the Sahtu’s under-representation, most of the other issues are largely addressed. Again, none of them are particularly pleasing, but that may be the nature of the question we’re trying to address.

I have about 30 more seconds. I will stop here if you want and continue later, or complete my statement. Mahsi.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Go ahead, Mr. Bromley . If it’s only 30 seconds, let’s hear the rest of it.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, colleagues. I’ll wrap up here. I wasn’t watching the clock.

We need to increase fairer representation across our territory while being as sensitive as possible to the recognition of cultural and language groups and determining constituency boundaries. We need to empower the next commission to grapple with and confront the likely need to cross some cultural or language group boundaries in order to achieve more fair representation.

As an MLA whose riding has the highest population by far, and with the greatest diversity of cultures, lifestyles and community types, I can tell you that representing a diverse population is a good thing. Representing Weledeh has helped me see the NWT from many diverse viewpoints and that has convinced me even more of the importance of fair representation for all as the fundamental basis for good decision-making that benefits all.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Bromley . Before I go to the next person on my list for general comments, in the visitors gallery today I would like to recognize several members of the Tlicho leadership, including Grand Chief Eddie Erasmus and our former colleague in this House, Mr. Henry Zoe. I’d also like to recognize the mayor of Yellowknife, His Worship Mayor Heyck. Welcome to the Chamber today.

General comments. Ms. Bisaro .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. I, as well, want to start out by thanking the members of the commission, Justice Smallwood, Mr. Furlong and Mr. McCrea. I think they were charged with a very difficult mandate, and as members of the Electoral Boundaries Commission, I think they did do a good job.

We’ve heard from Mr. Bromley . I’m sure we will hear lots from other Members in the House on the three recommendations that are before us. I have to ask, ask myself, and I have to ask it out loud: What are we trying to achieve? The answer, in my view, is that we’re trying to achieve equity and parity of voting power. We’re trying to put in place the right to effective representation, and it’s a difficult task, given all the things that any commission has to consider. Mr.

Bromley talked about a few of them, but I’m going to quote from the commission’s report, which said, “factors such as geography, community interest and minority representation may all need to be taken into account.” I think as Members living and working within this grand territory, I think we all understand that.

For me, the status quo is not an option, and on this the commission and I agree. Our current situation demands the correction of two obvious representation differences. One riding is 40 percent over and one riding is 40 percent under-represented and those need to be corrected. The status quo also demands more and better representation of Yellowknife ridings or in Yellowknife ridings. All the Yellowknife ridings are near or over the allowable 25 percent under-representation that’s been determined by the Supreme Court of Canada to be acceptable.

I’ve considered the commission’s report several times, and truth be told, I don’t feel that any of the three options presented achieves the sought after goal. I have looked at the options and see pros and

cons to each one of the three of them. I’d like to sort of talk about some of those and go through them a bit.

The 18 seats option gives us only one serious under-representation and that’s the riding of Monfwi. All Yellowknife ridings are still considerably under-represented. K’atlodeeche and Enterprise are moved into the Hay River riding, which makes sense to me. I believe that’s where they belong. The number of MLAs is reduced by one, which some say is a positive because it will give us more money for programs. The combination of Tu Nedhe and the Deh Cho ridings creates a very diverse riding and is not wanted by some of those people who would be in that riding.

The 19 seats gives the largest number of overrepresented ridings of the three options. We still have one seriously under-represented riding, again Monfwi. All the Yellowknife ridings are still considerably under-represented. The overrepresentation in the Tu Nedhe riding, as referenced by Mr. Bromley , is addressed, but moving Ndilo and Detah into that riding creates another situation, a diverse riding where nobody is happy.

The 21 seats option gives us the least number of overrepresented ridings. I think Mr. Bromley referenced that as well. It solves the problem in the Monfwi riding by creating a new riding in that area. All Yellowknife ridings are still under-represented, but there is greater voter parity because an eighth seat is created. The percentage of under-representation is lowered somewhat. This option allows for future growth in Yellowknife while voter parity is maintained. There is an increased cost to government because two new seats are added. That’s kind of a bit of my own analysis of what’s in there.

There are lots of other things, I’m sure, that other people may add in or take out, but that’s what I got from reading the report.

To the issue of cost, as well, there have been minor discussions about costs and I have to address it, as well, as did Mr. Bromley . To those who decry the cost of two more MLAs, I have to ask them at what price comes democracy. In my view, democracy is a costly business, but if effective representation and voter parity demands more Members, then I believe it is well worth it. I think Mr. Bromley said it’s a legitimate cost and I agree with that.

The commission report discusses over and under-representation. It quotes from the 1999 NWT Supreme Court decision. Mr. Bromley spoke to how they perceived over and under-representation and what’s considered acceptable. I’d like to quote from three passages, or share three passages that are in the report. The first one says, “I am satisfied that there probably is justification…for the present overrepresentation of the electoral districts whose

percentage variations in population are below the average.” So, overrepresentation basically is okay.

The second phrase: “Deviations from voter parity can be justified provided that effective representation is not sacrificed.” We see that in every one of these three options that we’re looking at.

The third phrase, “Overrepresentation is preferable to under-representation.” That’s from the 1999 Supreme Court decision. I don’t necessarily agree with the way that that is presented, but the precedent is there. Overrepresentation is considered okay; under-representation is not. I think that in looking at the decision we are trying to make today, all Members of the House must consider those statements and they have to seriously consider them as we try to make our decision.

In looking at all the three options, the bottom line for me is that I have to respond to my constituents’ concerns, and I have to support my belief on what is best for my community, my community of Yellowknife.

Lastly, I want to address the idea that’s been talked about for some months now since the report has been made public, and that idea is to change our legislation to make recommendations of any future Electoral Boundaries Commission binding. I agree with that change. Currently, I find this to be an extremely political exercise. Any decision by MLAs about themselves is highly politically motivated and anybody that denies that is dreaming, I think. Maybe they’re on crack like Mayor Ford.

I feel it’s important that we move this discussion from the Chamber and we accept that an independent commission can and does do an excellent job, and that the recommendation of an independent commission is better than any decision that this Chamber can make.

I look forward to the comments from my colleagues as we debate this issue. I know it’s going to be a difficult decision, but I hope that we will all consider what is best in the interests of the territory as a whole. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro . Next on my list for general comments I have Mr. Nadli .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael Nadli

Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Chair. I, too, would like to thank the Electoral Boundaries Commission for the report. In that report, obviously, I think everyone is aware, there are three scenarios of moving forward, either 18, 19 or 21.

Unfortunately, this process lacks a real needed effort to put forward constructive opportunity for people of the North to be involved with the building of the nation of the NWT as they advance forward. What I mean is there is a complete lack of

constitutional development for interest to even meddle, perhaps, with how it is that we as Northerners live together here in the NWT.

Constitutional development, in my mind, would define the roles of the central and regional governments and at the same time consider, of course, the recent Aboriginal governments that have made efforts to settle their land claims and become part of the larger mosaic of Canada.

Recently, we experienced the most significant transfer of responsibilities from the federal government to the GNWT. In my mind, that cuts into the vein of how it is that this institution of the GNWT functions as a government.

This is from my perspective. This institution that we value is the GNWT. It is, like colleagues have made reference to, a true political process and, unfortunately, we don’t acknowledge that. We have placed greater efforts in terms of trying to advance how it is that we’re going to live together in the future. Unfortunately, because we have bypassed the process, we’re letting the courts decide how it is that we’re supposed to live together.

Of course, there are some realities. The biggest one is the NWT population has remained the same for some time. That’s a stalwart point of reference. It’s very clear that the population of the NWT has remained the same for some time.

So at this point, I mean, I know this discussion will continue, but those are just my opening general comments. Mahsi.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Nadli . Next I have Mr. Bouchard .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Robert Bouchard

Hay River North

Thank you, Madam Chair. I, too, would like to thank the commission for their hard work and all the effort that they’ve made in looking at the three options that we gave them: 18, 19 and 21. Obviously, the debate includes the court

action requiring it to be within 25 percent over or under. But we also have to look at the territory, the size of the territory, the population of the territory and, I believe, the growth of our territory. We’re seeing a decline in the population.

I guess one of the questions or one of the comments is effective representation. We look at these ridings and MLAs have different positions and different jobs. Like myself, I represent half of one community. In my riding, I could probably walk it in a couple of hours. It’s probably a few miles in length, but some MLAs have to represent several communities, and most communities they have to fly into.

Again, some MLAs live in Yellowknife here, represent Yellowknife where the population is very dense and you’re representing a large group of people, but within a mile or two of each other. Some MLAs are representing several communities and you have to get to those communities. Some of them are very remote. So I think that’s a factor that has to be included in this.

I’ve gone through the pros and cons of each number. Eighteen, I mean, obviously we’d see a reduction in costs, but I think the general public has been very adamant that they don’t want to see that many more MLAs. We have some of the lowest numbers as far as representation for MLAs in the country. We travel around and we talk to some of the groups that are around the country that represent 30,000 people, as an example. I mean, I understand that we’re small, we’re a small territory, but big in land and it’s a vast territory to cover. So I understand the numbers that are associated.

The cons of 18, I think there would be melding of a few Aboriginal groups that I don’t think would be very effective. There are issues of language. Mr. Beaulieu has talked to us about it. You’re eliminating a riding; you’re also talking about workload. You know, the workload between Cabinet Ministers, Regular Members, you have one less person doing the work and dividing up the work. As well as the numbers, it’s also a numbers game when we sit here in consensus government about if we have 18 Members, there are seven Members on the Cabinet and there are 11 on this side. If we have 18, then it’s seven and 10.

So the Cabinet, in our consensus government, would only require a couple of votes to move things forward, which I don’t necessarily agree with.

The 19 option I see as the most effective one. It’s closest to the status quo. I think if we tweak it a little bit, it’s giving us options, it’s the easiest, the least disruptive. We’re not talking about taking on any additional costs. So I guess the cons are, yes, we have a group of two MLAs that are affected, one giving up some and one taking on some. But I think currently, like I’ve indicated, everyone that I’ve

talked to in the general public don’t want to see more MLAs. So I’m kind of leaning towards that.

The 21 option, I personally don’t see a lot of effectiveness to it. We have the public that’s out there, we sit here and talk about costs associated, we look at our budgets, we talk about fiscal restraint, we talk about wanting more money for different programs, yet we’re willing to take on additional costs for MLAs. I know we’re talking about numbers, but numbers aren’t necessarily what is happening. We’re looking at languages, cultures, there are a whole bunch of different factors.

The cons to 21 also talk about the numbers. Again, the numbers game here in consensus government, we’re talking about Cabinet requiring four people to make consensus happen, which would slow down the process of approval of budgets and acts and activities that the government happens. It would give strength to the larger centres, I think, because they would have larger numbers in Yellowknife as MLAs representation, which the people in the regions have concerns with that. We debate on a daily basis about decentralization, the devolution that’s just happened.

I don’t want to pick on my colleagues from Yellowknife, but there has been a lot of job creation through devolution in the capital. The numbers game of adding another Yellowknife MLA is concerning to the people in the regions. Those are some of the things that I have concerns with and I have heard from the general public.

I appreciate the work from the commission, but all three options don’t have any said solution. There are still difficulties with each option.

Ms. Bisaro talked about the motion that may come forward about us making it mandatory to take the commission’s recommendations as gospel and that we don’t have involvement and not to involve the political side of it. But the problem is that there are so many factors to each change that we make. If we change numbers, if we change the lines dividing regions, there are so many factors that I think have to be included at this Legislative Assembly level politically, linguistically, culturally and consensus government-wise. Like I talked about the numbers, if you change one riding, the numbers may change the way we operate as a Legislative Assembly and how this government operates.

Those are some of the comments I have for those three options. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Bouchard . For general comments, next I have Minister Beaulieu .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity.

I found this to be a very difficult topic, very difficult report to understand. We have the people from the Northwest Territories, the Aboriginal people that are

impacted by decisions made in this House know where the boundaries should be drawn, individual communities. The 19 seats option, there’s something that Akaitcho Territorial Government passed a motion to support and that was to leave the status quo as is. They have difficulty understanding why, with the amount of MLAs, that they would have to take and essentially eliminate one seat from the small communities. That’s what 19 does, so they wanted to go to status quo.

Today we are here to look at three options: 19, 18 and 21. In order to make the option that people of Tu Nedhe and some of the people that I spoke to at Detah/Ndilo, and as MLA Bromley indicated, they too don’t want to become a part of a riding outside of Yellowknife. They see Yellowknife as their homeland. In the future, they see that Detah/Ndilo, YK Dene could be a majority in a Yellowknife seat, one of the seats here in Yellowknife. The people of Tu Nedhe see that with the population changing and the population migrating to the urban centres, that unless we put good representation and keep good representation for those communities, that’s going to continue.

People recognize at a federal level, as an example, the differences. If we’re only concerned about numbers – and I agree people are under-represented shouldn’t exist – but at the federal level, as an example, they recognize the difference between people being overrepresented and culture. When you have a federal riding of Brampton, Ontario, of 170,000 people and the average federal riding is 112,000, they are under-represented, but that doesn’t mean that the federal government is going to now make a decision to combine Labrador, Nunavut, Northwest Territories and Yukon in order to get the numbers right.

They recognize that the 29,000 people in Yukon, the 41,000 in Northwest Territories and the 34,000 people in Nunavut are distinct, different groups that need their own representation.

In 1873, when Canada became a country, Prince Edward Island got four seats. They acquired those seats. Each seat has 34,000 people. That’s 69 percent below the average of 112,000, but no one is coming to PEI and saying they are only eligible for one seat now because we have to get the numbers right.

[Translation] Okay, with the people here, it’s going to be without us. Okay.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. I’ll go to Mr. Blake next for general comments.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Frederick Blake Jr.

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chair. I, too, would like to thank the Electoral Boundaries Commission. I believe that they went out and carried out the direction this Legislature gave them.

I know many things have changed in this territory over the last two decades. A number of years back there were only 24 seats and we served a larger population. Through that time, many things have increased. A good example is when we were combined with Nunavut, we had the same budget that we have now, pretty similar. Here we are after division, debating whether to move to 21 seats, which is only three less than what was originally serving the people of two territories.

I know a lot of people who are debating here today are concerned with under-representation, but it’s very clear through this report that many of the people of the Territories and many times Members

here are always saying listen to the people. The majority of the people would like to see the status quo. Many people feel that there are already too many MLAs. We always get e-mails saying there are too many MLAs; we should be getting rid of some. Those are the e-mails I receive, anyway. I just wanted to bring that forward.

I know we are debating whether to choose 18, 19 or 21 Members. Through the different scenarios it could work with either one, but I would like to support the public and leave this government at 19 Members for the future. If we do actually decide to go with 21 within the next government that we have or within the next eight years, you could see another MLA being added, which, as Mr. Bouchard mentioned earlier, would really throw things off. If we were to go with 21 Members, most likely you will see the cost of this Legislature going up between one and two million dollars.

Not only would we have two more MLAs, but we would most likely have another Minister. That’s the sort of things that we have to look at here when we’re asking these decisions.

Right now, the way this government is operating, I believe it’s operating very well. If we were to go down to 18, that would put a larger workload on committees. Right now, with 19 Members and 11 Regular Members, we have enough Members to function with all the committees that we now have in this Legislature. Those are my opening remarks. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Blake . Next I have Mr. Menicoche .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I, too, would like to thank the committee for all the hard and extensive work as they went about the Electoral Boundaries Commission. I do want to say that we’re the ones that gave them instructions to look at 18 MLAs, 19 MLAs and/or 21 MLAs. I think it kind of limited them in how they could look at our territory and find the best arrangements for representation. They were kind of limited, so they came back with their recommendations and not all of them are popular. It really didn’t fix what we were looking for, which is equal and effective representation in all the constituencies.

However, that’s always been the past pressures as well. I think we heard our constituents and they said 18, let’s look at 18. Let’s have less MLAs. Nobody wants to see government grow, especially Members of the Legislative Assembly, so we looked at 18 and it becomes very politicized only because we are going to have to eliminate one riding. That still did not help out because some regions still have a lot of constituents to represent.

Looking at 19, it’s not the status quo, but it’s a rearranging of boundaries. I heard clearly from my constituents they don’t want to see growth. Rearranging the current boundaries, I think, is a

workable solution. I just want to say clearly for the record, too, that my constituents are listening. The Nahendeh riding is unaffected by this report.

When we looked at 21, it was important for me that not only Yellowknife gets an MLA but the regions get an MLA as well. So if Yellowknife grows by one, then the regions have to grow by one and I think that’s what was proposed with the 21 MLA scenario, as well, which is important for parity and political growth in our great Northwest Territories.

Just one further thing, they also recommend that future electoral boundaries be independent, they’re the ones that set the future growth, but we’re setting a small constituency and in other jurisdictions, even the federal system, I think they’re going up by about 30 Members of Parliament in the next election and that’s because they’ve got an independent commission that said you have to go by 30 in order to meet these certain parameters. I’m afraid that going independent like that will have us grow lots of MLAs in the Northwest Territories, just like leaves.

So, I’m not really in favour of an independent commission. At the same time there has to be another route or mechanism in which we look at how much our jurisdiction grows in MLAs for 41,000 people. Constituents have made it clear to me that having 24 or 26 MLAs is over-government, its overrepresentation. So I’m not really supportive of going to independent. There must be another way around it.

With that, those are my opening remarks, Madam Chair. Thank you very much.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche . Next I have Mr. Moses .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Alfred Moses

Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Before I begin, I’d like to commend the work that was done by the Electoral Boundaries Commission bringing forth what this government actually gave direction to. With that said, perhaps, maybe in hindsight, we could have actually given a little bit better direction in how this government wanted to proceed on such an important issue that’s going to affect representation of our constituents and residents of the NWT moving forward.

The Northwest Territories is very unique in that we have a very diverse culture. I represent many different groups, some that weren’t First Nations to the Northwest Territories before and I don’t speak their language, I don’t practice their cultures, but I do represent them and I feel that I represent them very well in this House. Not just the uniqueness of the Northwest Territories and to have what we have before us today, we do have a decreased population in the Northwest Territories, but one of the recommendations is that we’re looking to add two new Members.

That being said, we did have discussions on this on numerous occasions and one thing that I want to bring up to Members of this Assembly is we’ve got to go through the budget process, whether it’s for operations or capital, while we fight to offer better services, programs and infrastructure for residents of the Northwest Territories. If we look at adding any new Members, whether it’s equal representation or effective representation, that’s something that’s been brought up in this House before.

I’ve worked with Members on this side of the House and that side of the House for the last two years and I feel that each and every Member does a great job in representing their constituents, their ridings, their community or, in some cases, Yellowknife, where I feel they have a great representation of MLAs that are very effective in bringing forth the issues of Yellowknife. Obviously, that’s one of the ridings that are being affected with this increase to 21.

Do we need more Members to talk about the issues we’re still talking about today? We did have a throne speech yesterday that outlines all the work that this government has done, the 17th Legislative

Assembly, and you just have to sit and listen to all the work, everything that’s been accomplished in the two years, that’s with the numbers that we have now. Do we need to take more money out of the government budget to add two more Members so that we can have more people talking about what we need in the communities? I don’t think so. Working with the Members in this House, for me, I’ve had the firsthand opportunity of seeing the work that Members do.

As for public consultation, the commission did go out, and even before that I want to talk about even the election process. During our election the voter turnout we did have lower percentages of turnouts in some of the jurisdictions around the Northwest Territories. I mean, you have to factor that in too. Why are we going to have more elected leaders when the residents of the NWT aren’t coming out and voting in some of the jurisdictions to try to get some of these people in? The public consultation put on by the commission, they did visit 14 communities with only 149 people that came out to these consultations.

Yet, we’re trying to fight for more MLAs in this House. Twenty written submissions, some of which were by Members of this House. So, I mean, you’re going to hear from those same Members today as well.

What it comes down to for me is that in just over two years that we’ve been working together as a collective 17th Legislative Assembly, I do feel that

we’ve done a lot of work with the Members that are here in the House today. I feel that by adding two new Members, which is one of the recommendations brought forth to us, it will be

taking out possibly program and service dollars, possible infrastructure dollars that our communities need, that the city of Yellowknife needs, and dollars that are not going to be there when we’re looking at the next operational or capital budget. Do we need more people sitting around the table talking about needing another school? We already know that. Or that we need more psychiatrists or physicians? Do we need somebody else around the table to say yes we do? No, because we’ve said it already. Do we need another person to say we need another treatment centre, to say it over and over again? No, because we’ve all said that. I guess you can pretty well see where I’m going with this.

The report itself gave out a lot of good information. There was even talk in some communities about how come 20 Members wasn’t discussed, an increase of one number. Just sticking to the commission, they said no, we were given direction of 18, 19 and 21. Like I said at the beginning of my little talk here, perhaps in hindsight this government could have given a little bit better direction on how to move forward.

I know it’s all about equal representation, but as I said, we do have a lot of MLAs here and I feel that each MLA brings something unique and they’re effective in what they speak about in terms of their constituents that they represent. You look at the population of the Northwest Territories and it’s about 43,000 residents. Yet you look anywhere down south and the representation that one Member of the Legislative Assembly has to deal with, and we’re talking about, give or a take, a few hundred other constituents.

I’m sure that any Member here is capable of doing that, of taking on a little bit more members to represent and bring their concerns to the table in the House.

If we continue to look at the increase, the 21 Members, I feel that the structure of how the Assembly will run will also be different in terms of looking at Cabinet and possibly committees. At this moment, I think you know where I’m going. I think residents of the Northwest Territories see the work that is done in this Assembly and they also feel that we don’t need any new Members. Equal representation definitely is a concern here with some jurisdictions, but I feel that if we do add any new Members, it’s going to take out of operating and capital budget dollars. We do need services, we do need programs, we do need infrastructure in the communities and in the territory.

So just my opening comments, and once again I thank the commission for the work that we directed them to do. They went out, did their job and came back, and today we’re going to make a big decision on where we go from here. I hope all Members take into consideration what each and every Member discusses today because everyone is bringing something different and unique to the table. We all have different ridings that we represent, whether it’s

culture, population or language, and that moving forward we do the right thing with the taxpayer dollars and the residents of the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Moses . Any further general comments? Mr. Bouchard .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Robert Bouchard

Hay River North

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to add something that I missed. I’d indicated that none of the three options had a complete solution. One of the areas that I have problem with is the 21 selection option. It also brings up concerns. There are still overages, so in that process we would have, at that time, problems with the Sahtu. The Sahtu would have an overage and, at that time, would we be looking, at the next go-round, to be adding 22, 23? Where does the expansion of this Legislative Assembly stop, especially when our population is not going up, it’s going down?

I mean, the scenario of 21 just adds an additional factor to the next go-round when we review this, and we know the Sahtu is probably going to grow some more with activity in the region. I mean, typically, where do we stop growing this Legislative Assembly? We have to look at that as well. I thought I’d give that last comment.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Bouchard . General comments. Next I have Minister Lafferty .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mahsi, Madam Chair. [Translation] I would also like to thank the commission for doing the report for us, and I know it was very difficult work for them and that’s one of the reasons that we’re sitting here to discuss it today. I know that they’ve travelled to all the communities to meet with the people and they also went in the Behchoko and Whati ridings and they’ve listened to a lot of people and their concerns. How can they get more representation in their area was one of the topics that they had. But today in the Dogrib region, there are a lot of people that are sitting here. They are also concerned.

A lot of our Dogrib leaders are in the House because they are concerned about this situation.

Every seven years or more, this issue always comes up, how many representatives are here, are we going to get an extra representation is what our concern is. But we have to think about one issue. When you’re talking about 25 percent, it’s been like that in the past. We have to take note of that 25 percent riding. I know there are a lot of people that have expressed their concerns here. They want to have 21, but they have to have the status quo to go with that. But in the Tlicho region, we have 25 percent. We are far beyond 25 percent representation in our region. I think we are at 39 percent in our region, so that is why the leaders have expressed for another person to represent them.

We know by our communities. We are from small communities. We have small communities. We have many communities that are small but they have to have representation and with the culture and language needs, and we have to remember that. But we have to always look at the people in the region. We have to make sure that they are represented.

I know that some people said that they want 18 or 19. Maybe they will do away with one chair, but Tu Nedhe and Deh Cho, if they are going to be put together, what do they think? What do the people think about it? I know that a lot of people in that area are not happy with that. And they also said Tu Nedhe and Weledeh, they want to put them together, and I know that people in that area don’t like that. They have always had representation in the past, that is known, and then they talk about 21 seats. I think right now 21 seats is more favourable. When you look at it, you have to think about your language, your culture, and you have to take note into all those issues of language and culture.

When they went to the Behchoko area, a lot of people showed up for the meeting. When they went to other northern communities, a lot of the people didn’t show up to the meetings, but in the Behchoko region a lot of people went to the meetings because they are concerned. We’ve been talking about this for a very long time.

We are following our elders’ advice. We always wanted to have an extra representation. In the Monfwi riding there are over 3,000, 39.5 percent, that is the percentage in that riding, but right now, as we have it, we have 25 percent, and it seems like they can get a representation for 25 percent. You have to take a look at that.

When the commission looked at the population, they took into consideration that 25 percent to 39 percent representation. Right now it is 39 percent. What about in the next eight years? It could go up to 50 percent, but it seems like our population is on the rise, but we still don’t have that extra representation.

When you look at the whole situation in our area, it seems like it’s almost the same as Inuvik representation. It’s also like that in Hay River. Our population, when you look at our population, it is the same as those two regions. You have to take a look at that. You have to notice that population, and I know that a lot of people here have made their comments and concerns about it.

Every eight years there are recommendations; yes, we want this representation, or else they’ll say no, we don’t need representation. That is the way it used to be, but now they say we have 19 representatives. Why did we have the commission do this work if we’re not going to have this change? I know that it’s going to take a lot of money if we do have 21 representations, but in our region we have

our own government. We have self-government in our region and we want to work well and go forward ahead with each other, but it seems like we’re not doing that because we’re not having the equal representation. If it stays as 19, it seems like we are not going to have any proper representation.

When you want to look at population, it’s always like you have to know the population. Even though we have over 3,000 people living in that area, some of the southern provinces, a lot of our population are away at school or living down south and they are the ones that come back and that’s how our population will rise again, so a lot of those people talk to me and express their concerns. Those kinds of people that are living down south are not also counted within our riding. When you look at the situation, there’s 25 percent. We should take a really good look at that 25 percent situation.

We have to have equal representation and be represented equally, even though we are from other places or from other representation or from small communities. It seems like sometimes they are under-represented and they are not even counted, but we want two representatives in our region but some other people, some other ridings are… I know that if they were in our situation, at 39 percent, they would be asking for extra representation, so that is one of the reasons we are asking for representation as everybody spoke on status quo.

I know that the Commissioner said that status quo is not to be, so if we change it little bit now, we change it. After, are we going to be adding one or two or two or three chairs? So, once it’s in the court’s hand, a decision is going to be made.

Right now our elders, leaders, have given me a direction. That is why I am speaking here in front of you. I have always supported 21 seats and that is what I wanted to bring up my concern in the Monfwi area. I know that all the MLAs have also expressed their concerns, so I would just like to express my concerns and say thank you.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Next for general comments I have Mr. Ramsay .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It’s a privilege to have the opportunity to provide some comments in relation to the Electoral Boundaries Commission. I just wanted to start off by saying, first and foremost, I don’t think we need any more politicians to represent the people in the Northwest Territories. I think 19 is very good. I’ve been here for almost a decade and the scenario that we have today is a workable one, it’s a manageable one.

Some Members are talking about the cost and that certainly is a factor in all of this, but I want to make one other thing clear. That is that I wouldn’t support any move to erode what representation the citizens of Yellowknife and my riding in Kam Lake have in

this building. Again, I either would stay with 19, the status quo, the recommendation in the report, or I could be persuaded to look at the option to go to 21, if that presents itself later this afternoon. Again, I think, if we are going to look at adding a seat outside of Yellowknife, adding a seat to Yellowknife certainly would have to happen, in my mind. The report speaks to that and certainly that is something that may be available to us later today.

We have gone through this before. I know some Members have been here for a fifth term for a couple of you, and this is my third term, and there are other Members that have been and lived through an Electoral Boundaries Commission report. The last one was eight years ago, where the Legislative Assembly just basically decided not to act on the recommendations of the report. That obviously is an option that’s available to us, as well; you know, just don’t do anything with it. I think we have to be thankful for the work that was done. We gave instructions to the Electoral Boundaries Commission. We sent them on their way with looking at 18, 19 and 21 and they did come back with recommendations.

One of the interesting things is we really have to take the politics out of this going forward. You can just see it; I mean, it’s there. I don’t think politicians should be making decisions that will directly affect them. That should be taken out of our hands. The Electoral Boundaries Commission was commissioned and that’s supposed to depoliticize the process, but it doesn’t do that because the report comes back and politicians end up deciding.

So we really have to look and find a way when we get into doing the next Electoral Boundaries Commission report eight years from now that these recommendations – of course, Members eight years from now will have an opportunity to provide input to the Commission – should be binding. They should be taken out of the hands of politicians. You know, we have a justice that chairs the commission. The directions are explicit; they’re direct.

Whatever the commission goes out and comes back with, I think the people of the Northwest Territories, because that’s who the commission gets out and talks and speaks to are the people of the Northwest Territories, then they would come back with their report and that would be what happens. It would take the politics out of it. I think that’s what it was intended to do in the first place, but the politics gets back into it and it gets very complicated. Again, people can say they don’t have political agendas, but everybody has a political agenda that’s in this room.

Again, I think it will serve us well in the future to depoliticize the process.

For today’s purpose, again, I wouldn’t support anything that is going to erode the representation that Yellowknife has in this House. I, first and foremost, would support the 19 Members as outlined in the report. Failing that, I would support a

move to go to 21 Members. We are actively trying to grow our economy here. We have devolution, we have a lot of exciting things happening in the economy, and my belief is we are going to attract more people to live here in the Northwest Territories. I wouldn’t be frightened to go to 21 Members. I could live with that, but my first look at this is we should try to stay with 19 Members. Thank you.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay . General comments. The next person I have on my list is Minister Miltenberger .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Madam Chair. This is my third go around with this type of report and debate. The hard issue that tends to get overlooked every time is the fundamental discussion of how many MLAs do we think we need in the Northwest Territories to run the government, and work back from there and design our system. We tend to want to follow the line of least resistance, which is either the status quo or just add more. It’s very similar to some of the budgeting processes where we very rarely cut government. We tend to just add more because it’s easier to add than it is to cut.

I know we have the smallest constituencies in Canada between ourselves. Nunavut is even smaller and then the Yukon. We are scattered over a broad geography, I would acknowledge, but we have to keep in mind we have about 42,000 people and our population is flat. I’ve heard it from some of my colleagues as well.

In all my travels across the North and all of my discussions in this House during budgeting processes as we ask for things, be it addictions or be it full-service daycares, more money for highways, roads, I have yet to hear here, or anywhere that I’ve been, anybody asking us of all the things we need to do as a government, all of our priorities where we spend our scarce resources, we need more MLAs. I have yet to hear that.

The issue for me is very simple. We are a huge government. We have a lot of MLAs. We have thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of employees. When you look at the Northwest Territories and you look at all the government that’s here, we are probably the most governed jurisdiction or one of the most governed jurisdictions anywhere. It is an issue of too big a government, too many politicians, too many other needs, and I was a proponent of why don’t we do something dramatic and look at adjusting down instead of up, which is where the 18 came from. There was enough support to at least get it looked at.

I can live with status quo or the adjustment to 19, but I just cannot bring myself to accept the fact that we have to grow government, grow the number of politicians at the expense of other things because it’s the easiest thing to do rather than living within

our political means. So, Madam Chair, thank you for the opportunity to make a few brief comments. Thank you.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger . Next I have Premier McLeod.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Bob McLeod

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Madam Chair. I, too, would like to thank the Electoral Boundaries Commission for the work they did. We asked the commission to look at the three options. In hindsight, perhaps we should have asked them to come up with options for each of the three options. That might have been able to encompass more scenarios.

I think, at the risk of repeating what others have said, we are 42,000 people here in the Northwest Territories with 19 MLAs. So when you average that out, the average population to have effective representation would be approximately 2,200 people. We all know that the Northwest Territories is the only jurisdiction in Canada whose population has been declining. It hasn’t been a significant decline. I think it has been 0.1 or 0.2 percent and 100 to 200 people per year. I think what’s been happening is the trends are people are moving from the smaller centres to the larger centres.

With regard to how many MLAs it takes to run a government, I think the answer does not lie in increasing the number of MLA seats. We should realign boundaries because population dynamics are shifting. We shouldn’t be increasing seats because the population is moving around, so to just resolve the problem, we’ll add one or two more seats. I think the answer lies in realigning the boundaries.

We are a consensus government. We don’t have political parties, so we don’t have to worry about gerrymandering when it comes to setting electoral boundaries. I agree that we should do our best to represent culture and language wherever possible, but we also need to have equal and effective representation as best as we can.

So my view is we gave direction to the Electoral Boundaries Commission. We should select one of the three options. I’m leaning towards 19 at this point. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Premier McLeod. Next on the list for general comments is Minister Abernethy .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. Both prior to the interim report coming out and after the interim report came out, I had an opportunity to talk to constituents and residents across the Northwest Territories, to try to get a sense of what many people were thinking.

It is clear to me that what people want is better balance in the ridings through the Northwest Territories, including the under-represented areas

of Yellowknife and Monfwi. We asked the commission to do something for us. We asked them to go out and provide recommendations on 18, 19 and 21, but we did provide a legal framework for them to do that in.

Section 3 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees that every citizen in Canada has the right to vote in an election of Members of a Legislative Assembly and the constitutional right to vote is a right to effective representation.

We also know that the Supreme Court of British Columbia determined that there are constitutional limits on the unequal distribution of population between electoral districts and this sets the stage for the deviations that we all have been talking about, which is the plus or minus 25 percent. This concept was also supported and affirmed by the Supreme Court of Canada.

So the right to vote enshrined in

Section 3 of the Charter is not equality of voting power, but more of a right to effective representation. These are the conditions that we placed on the commission when we sent them out to come back with some recommendations. The first condition to effective representation is relative parity of voting power, but this isn’t the only thing. It’s not the only factor that needs to be considered.

As you’ve heard from other Members today, other factors must be evaluated; factors such as geography, community, history, community interest, minority representation, all these things have to be taken into consideration.

In my mind, that has limited the ability of the commission to look at what may be part of what needed to be done, which is realigning boundaries. I talked to citizens, I talked to residents and I talked to constituents and they said, yes, more balanced representation, but please, please don’t add any more MLAs. We have enough MLAs.

So they’ve come back to us with three recommendations: 18, 19 and 21. I appreciate the work they did. I know they went out and heard from the residents of the Northwest Territories and I know they gathered feedback and thought long and hard about the recommendations that came forward. I, like others, wished there was more opportunity for more recommendations under each one – under 18, under 19 and under 21 – but there aren’t. We have to make a decision based on the three.

I have difficulty with the 18 because I find the amalgamation of the two smallest ridings of the Northwest Territories in the geographic areas they cover and the fact that they are covering a wide number of languages and a large area to be troublesome. I think that would be very difficult for any MLA who happened to be elected in that riding.

I am leaning towards 19, but I do have a problem with 19, as well, because although with some slight modification it could bring all of Yellowknife within the plus or minus 25, it does leave Monfwi out. So we have a problem.

But then if we go to 21, the problem doesn’t go away, it just moves to another riding. It moves to the Sahtu. Then we have the exact same problem that we have today. So going to 21 does not solve any problems for the Northwest Territories. It does give Yellowknife maybe a little bit better representation, but it’s all washed out by the fact that we’re going to have to then put in 22 seats and if we put in 22 seats, all of a sudden we need 23 in order to balance things out. Then we’re slowly, or rather rapidly getting up to our legal limit, which is 25.

Frankly, I know that some Members have said, what is the price of democracy. I get their point, but I tend to disagree. We are a small territory with a shrinking population. We have been challenged with increasing budgets, increasing costs. Probably with salary, employer’s share of salary, our other costs, it’s probably about $230,000 to $250,000 a year. You start adding that up for two MLAs, we’re talking maybe up to $600,000 a year for two MLAs. We’re talking about $2.4 million over the term of an office.

For that money, we could rightly fund community justice coordinators throughout the Northwest Territories and provide them with a living wage. We could hire two more physicians a year. We could hire four or five teachers a year. We could put additional money into mental health and addictions. We could do all these things. We don’t have those dollars today, so to fund two additional salaries for MLAs and all associated costs, we have to take that from somewhere. There’s only one place that can come from and that’s programs and services for the people of the Northwest Territories.

I don’t believe people who are struggling from mental health and addictions or living in poverty or people that are trying to make positive steps in their lives, people who want a healthy economy, want more politicians. It’s kind of a difficult situation to be in.

I agree with what some of the other Members have said here today, which is we really need to take politics out of this. Six jurisdictions in Canada have made this process binding. The recommendations from the committee are binding and I think this is something that we seriously need to look at.

So keeping all of this in mind, knowing that 18 doesn’t really work, 19 is a bit of a status quo but it leaves us in a situation where Monfwi is continuing to be under-represented, which is a problem. Moving to 21 doesn’t fix anything, it just moves the problem that Monfwi is in now to the Sahtu, and then it’s just going to continue to roll and get larger and we’ll end up with more and more MLAs. I tend

to lean towards 19, with a desire to move to a process where this is taken out of the hands of politicians and made binding.

I will end with an e-mail that I got earlier today from a resident of Yellowknife who said clearly we don’t need more MLAs. We are probably the most politically represented jurisdiction anywhere, with community governments, Aboriginal governments, school boards, health boards, Senators, MPs and 19 MLAs to represent 42,000 people. What we do need more of is medical professionals, teachers, not more politicians. I tend to agree. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Minister Abernethy . Next I have Mr. R.C. McLeod.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Robert C. McLeod

Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Madam Chair. I welcome this opportunity to provide a few comments on the report. I would like, as many of you have done, to thank the commission for the work that they’ve done, and commissions in the past. I think the commissions in the past have tried very hard to have representation from all across the Northwest Territories in recognizing the different regions, cultures and languages. I think they’ve attempted to try and address that in the past.

I’ve heard a few Members talk about fair representation, good representation, more and better representation, effective representation, equal representation, and based on numbers alone, there is quite a discrepancy, just based on the numbers. If you look at the numbers in one of the ridings in the capital, for example, with 2,900 constituents, are they any less represented than the community of Sachs Harbour with their 127 constituents? I don’t think so.

I think the fact that they have access to everything in the capital – they have access to seven Members, they have access to this building, they have access to all the departments and all the headquarters – I think they’re more represented than the small communities that are out there.

I tend to agree with Mr. Bouchard that those of us that have single community ridings – I represent half of Inuvik – we can walk our ridings and provide them with good representation. So if we just look at this report based on numbers alone, there is a discrepancy, but I think there’s more to it than that.

I agree with my colleagues Mr. Ramsay and Mr. Abernethy that we need to take the politics out of this. We need to take the politics out of this. I was fortunate enough to take

part in the last discussion we had on the Electoral Boundaries Commission eight years ago. It was quite a debate then and we’re having quite a debate today. I do believe that we need to look at a binding report eight years from now when the commission is struck, and the Members of the day, I think, should provide very clear direction as to what they would like to see.

Send the commission out to do their work, because it’s a lot of work that they put into this, a lot of work, send them out to do their work and when they come back that will give us an opportunity to have a discussion before they release their final draft, and I believe their final draft should be binding and I will be making a motion to that effect later on today. So, again, if you look at just based on numbers alone, the ridings with more constituents are under-represented, but I think there’s more to it than that.

I welcome this opportunity to have been able to say a few words and I look forward to further discussion. As I said, I will be bringing a motion forward later on today. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Next I have Mr. Hawkins .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Madam Chair. First off I want to acknowledge and thank the commission for their hard work. It was a difficult task we gave them. They took it up honourably and certainly I believe to my heart of hearts that they have done the best that they could.

Now, the commission followed our direction, so if there’s anyone to blame, it’s obviously the instructions provided to them by the Assembly. What I found was, here I am almost seven years later and we’re revisiting a similar style and problem of issues,

whereas sometimes the instructions weren’t as clear as possible. I think every successive group that will provide instructions to any boundaries commission will always suffer from, geez, if we’d only suggested this or helped create this. This time around we thought about giving them more options as opposed to last time and the options we had before us, we all know that the options they’ve come up with are on our direction when the Assembly said look at combinations for 18, 19 and 21.

I would say, at the end of the day, the options that have come forward – and this is not meant as any disrespect to the commission – but I don’t think any of them have been helpful in the very end.

I’ve seen them all. I’ve sat and gone through them carefully and what I found was the fact that the options themselves are very limiting. You either like it or you don’t. If you don’t like the option as presented, you have to go the next one and consider it and you like that one or you don’t. You go to the third one and it’s the same question that needs to be asked.

The problem is, I find all three recommendations very foggy to the issue and what happens here is the fact that we’re missing what surely should have been one of the directions, but we failed to provide the commission the direction, or at least the insight. The insight of it, which I believe in my heart of hearts, should have been the direction we’ve given them is we should have said things like give us

three combinations or three various options for 18. There are those who believe in fiscal prudence and say we have too many MLAs, and there are people out there that say that would then allow us to give due consideration to various combinations.

The challenge for us, of course, is the personalization or, in some cases, the depersonalization of this particular issue. Those who like status quo could have considered different options. I’m not necessarily advocating for this point publicly, but what I am saying is the only combination for 18 we came up was to get rid of Tu Nedhe, amalgamate the Deh Cho and come up with a weird combination that includes Monfwi. But had there been other perspectives of 18 come forward, the perspective of, for example, take Mackenzie Delta, the two Inuvik ridings and Nunakput riding, and there are four there that could have gone down to three with little or no challenge in the sense of cause and effects.

So I’m not trying to stand and say one is better than the other, but the problem is if you believe that 18 was the right direction, you’re only given one choice. I think that is very limiting in itself. I think the commission, if they truly had good direction, should have come up with various options for 18, various options for 19 and various options for 21.

For those who believe in democratic reform and the eagerness of representing their areas, as we all do, we should be asking ourselves how did we achieve or what did we achieve by coming up with these three combinations. I’m concerned that when you look at the balance, and people use the word “power,” so we should not pretend it doesn’t exist and pretend it’s not out there, but the reality is how does the balance of power affect the relationship of population. We’ve seen many Yellowknife issues get buried, but we continue, in our own way, to be relentless and we’re glad to be relentless on our issues.

There was an interim recommendation which suggested, for example, nine ridings out of 21 that should come to the Yellowknife region. Now Yellowknife is represented by mid-36 percent of voting power, okay, but we represent almost 48 percent of population. If we had risen to the challenge of accepting the recommendation of nine ridings in Yellowknife out of 21, that would have brought the Yellowknife context closer to what it truly represents in the public, which would have mathematically worked out closer to 43 percent of voting power in the House.

That would not have been perfect and I don’t think constituents of mine have said that the voting balance or that the representation balance or boundary balance has to be absolutely perfect, but I think people want what’s truly out there.

This is a boundary issue. This is about where the lines are drawn. I’ve never heard anyone say we

need more MLAs in the context of pure, raw, effective representation. Where I hear them say they want more Yellowknife MLAs is when Yellowknife MLAs are unable to promote the ideas and issues that are brought forward in Yellowknife and they’re out-voted or out-scrummed each and every time. I mean, it’s difficult to represent Yellowknife issues when we have such a minority in here.

Now I hear the context being brought forward and I agree with them. I’m not going to suggest Mr. Beaulieu or Mr. Lafferty have got bad issues. I believe in the strength of their principles of what they’re bringing forward. Representation of people, representation of culture, representation of area are significantly important if not it’s a crystal clear value of who we are as representatives of people of the Northwest Territories. We care about those things. I care about them. I don’t want anyone to feel unrepresented. Those are the challenges before us.

One of the issues that I struggle with is which one not only helps Yellowknife but helps the territory at large. I’m willing to do my part, carry the fair share of the load and to do what is necessary, but this, in essence, all of these continue to allow the political interests to be the forefront of the issue, and really what we should be asking ourselves is how are we serving the constituents, or at large how are we serving all residents of the Northwest Territories. So then in the way of the balance here, we carry politics versus programming, politics versus people and then politics versus the personalization of how do we do this.

Again, the 18 recommendation, just for sheer illustration, points out that, well geez, if we accept 18 we’d be deleting Tom and maybe a Michael’s riding. That is not the case and, unfortunately, that always becomes the issue. We always talk about it in that context. We should be talking about how we represent people fairly. That’s why I will support the motion that comes forward later today, of course, about taking the politics out of the initiative, because we need people to do this to provide guidance, advice, direction, and then not let the politicians then control the outcome of it.

My ideal situation of what a true commission would look like is, first of all, it would be binding, and second of all, I would issue a suggestion of it would, say, our two top judges plus maybe a lay judge, so you could have a judge from the Supreme Court and the Territorial Court.

Finding boundaries, fairness and fair representation is not politics. It’s just being human, and the challenges of this are not easy. I think the only solution – and I will be moving a motion to that context – is to refuse all three suggestions. I don’t think it’s met the minimum of what we wanted, and I think, if anything, as I said earlier, all these combinations in some way, although well intended,

has fogged the greater issue of how we do this business.

Fairness for all has always been told to me and I agree with people who’ve always told me that. If we pick 18, 19 or 20, are we being fair to all? I assert to you that 18 is complicated, 19 is avoiding the problem, and 21 keeps us super safe that no one’s feelings get hurt. Have we done our job? I would assert to this Chamber that we have not done our job if we pick any of those three. I don’t think we’ve done enough work.

At the same time, we have all the time we need. What I mean by that is we could send this back and ask for a revision, better instructions, instructions that are clear, elaborate, and certainly, if any case, binding, and at the same time, we could get it back to this House and ensure it was still implemented in a timely way. I have great faith in that. I have great faith in the people that could do that. But at the end of the day, we have to depersonalize this, take out the politics, and here we are politicians, 18 in the room, and we’re talking about not being political. Isn’t that kind of ironic of the whole situation?

By going to 21 there’s a big fault, and I know several people want that. I believe that, yes, it creates a parity situation,

whereas if we add one to Yellowknife, sure, lots of people in Yellowknife say we need more MLAs, but you just further tip the balance right back into the exact same situation but adding one more outside of Yellowknife, so you actually haven’t pushed the initiative forward. All you now do is create two new MLAs and I don’t think we’ve solved any problems.

But we have to deal with the elephant in the room, which is the size of certain ridings, and Tu Nedhe’s size must be addressed under this scenario. I don’t know if I fully agree with deleting it, but I do say a three to one voting power is challenging. I can tell you, in Yellowknife it bothers a lot of people, and that elephant in the room cannot be ignored. I do not want the people of Tu Nedhe to be unrepresented, and I would not suggest that in any way. I just think that it’s an issue that we need to talk more about and how we get there, and we will find a way.

As my time runs down, I will leave it with this, is that my issue is about depersonalizing this. We must find a way that creates fairness for all. Geography is a problem but I don’t think it’s an insurmountable challenge that the boundary lines cannot be better drawn, and as such, later today I will be moving a motion that reflects that interest. Of course, I’ll let the House’s decision stand, whatever direction it takes.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Robert Bouchard

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins . Mr. Dolynny .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Daryl Dolynny

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It has been said but it is indeed worth repeating that the people

of Range Lake would like to thank the honourable Justice Shannon Smallwood, Mr. Charles Furlong and Mr. Ian McCrea for their independent, holistic and thorough analysis of this commission report we have before us. It was clear that early on in this process many, including members of the public and this House, took up compelling and galvanized positions. This, I assume, would have been challenging by the commission who concluded with three unanimous recommendations.

But let me remind everyone this was an independent commission, chaired by a judge, that looked at demographic data, census data, geographic data, self-government agreements, community boundaries, transportation, communication, language, culture, public input, 15 hearings in 14 communities, and of course, we’ve heard the legal guidelines set by the highest court in the land in relationship to the relative parity of 25 percent.

Yet with all this, in recent weeks and we’ve heard just recently that we felt an elephant in this room. That beast is the decision we will have to make about our electoral boundaries, and I can assure you, the elephant can’t stay with us and status quo is clearly not an option.

As difficult and complex as today’s mechanical exercise is, I wanted to avoid the pitfalls of the 50 shades of political grey, and concentrate on what I and many of my constituents believe that are the three issues before this House. From my constituents’ feedback, it boils down to the cost of democracy, the balance between rural and urban, and finally, the law before this House.

To the first part, how much is too much? That is, at what point do we say we have too many elected or too few? Clearly, some who spoke in the past and even today have clearly asked what is the ceiling of our adequate government, and what about the added costs that we’ve heard associated with adding elected Members to this House? These are all excellent questions, but yet, the actions of those who use such argument contradict in design. Let me explain.

If we were indeed a good government and costs were important, as we were led to believe from Cabinet, then why does it appear that we are growing our public sector well beyond the current framework we are inheriting by the federal government and devolution?

Clearly, the federal government has been running things for decades on a basic framework, so what gives this government the golden touch to increase new responsibilities for an existing proven framework? To devolve is one thing, but to devolve and evolve on the same day. Good government, you say? Fiscally prudent? I’ll let the public decide. Clearly, if we were indeed questioning democracy strictly on cost alone, how can anyone denounce the addition of one or two seats of elected officials

to a potentially explosive balance sheet of new senior positions with the new devolution model?

There is no denying we are under significant budget restraint, and I do agree there is a price to pay for democracy, especially if it means the addition of political seats. I further concur we don’t want more government for the sake of programs, but using the cost argument as a means of distraction to denounce voters’ rights is not a solid enough argument to make at this juncture.

To my second part of rural and urban balance, it can be said that equality of voting power is probably the most important talked about issue for Yellowknife residents and was cited a number of times in the report. Now, balance is the key word here, and this balance should encompass every voter, no matter where they reside, should have fair representation. Without getting to the legal aspect, which I’ll reserve for later, we need to keep in mind that this territory has differences in design.

I recognize and fully appreciate the enormous challenges some of my colleagues must face with multiple communities when compared to Yellowknife Members. But I also must be cognizant that adding more Members will not equate easier access to such representation given our geographic hurdles. Unfortunately, the commission report barely addresses this, but it is obvious that we need to retool and rethink how we finance rural Members with these added barriers in reaching out to their constituents. My point is, let’s not confuse the issues of barriers to access with the issue of voter balance.

Finally, from a legal sense we know a number of things, the first of which is that status quo is not an option as we have five constituencies that are currently under-represented. Secondly, it doesn’t matter what the model we agree on today as each model in its design has at least one riding that is under-represented according to the legal definition, and third, the court has already told us that absolute voter parity may be practically impossible, and even if it was possible, it may detract from the primary goal of effective representation when geography, community history and culture are a factor.

It has been said that we, the elected representatives of this consensus House, function in two primary roles: one being legislator, the other ombudsmen for our constituents. As well, the courts have said set clear jurisprudence for us to govern with on the premise that our vast, sparsely populated country with all our varied culture distinctions have to consider that deviations from voter parity may be necessary to ensure effective representation for all.

I’m trying to sum up here. We’ve been given an independent commission chaired by a judge that has given us options for new riding boundaries, and

it didn’t take long for every one of us to figure out that democracy can be a messy business, but we all know that it’s required. If we do not make changes, we will have one or more ridings under-represented by the standards set by the Supreme Court. If we reject that standard, we risk an expensive Charter challenge at the cost of the taxpayer.

In the end I don’t believe any one of us here today want to trigger such a court battle. As legislators ourselves, we cannot ignore the law. In leading up to today’s debate, it seems clear that some ridings in the Northwest Territories have to move away from boundaries encompassing predominantly one language or cultural group. This is a tough one as these are natural and long-standing boundaries to the Aboriginal people of our territory and they’ve been well served and represented in this Assembly. But today some land claims have been settled and negotiations are advanced for others.

New systems of Aboriginal government are emerging, as well, and the distribution of population in our territory has been changing.

These are the facts we must reckon with. We have a duty to make difficult decisions according to the law of the land and we have a duty to make sure all NWT residents are fairly represented. Clearly, with today’s debate, we will have some differences among us on how this should be governed. I think we can change our electoral boundaries in ways that serve the people of the Northwest Territories, wherever they are, and live up to the principles of democracy that we hold dear. As Members, we have to live up to this challenge, because if we fail, we may have the courts doing our work for us and I don’t believe this is the intent of today’s exercise.

I ask my colleagues to put away political pressures. We have been given an independent commission report with some very clear options. We cannot ignore these. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Robert Bouchard

Thank you, Mr. Dolynny . Mr. Yakeleya .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The comments in the House here are well put, well presented by the speakers. The commission went throughout the Northwest Territories and talked to the people. I want to thank them for their continuous support to do what’s right for the people of the Northwest Territories with the mandate they had. It’s because of us here in the Assembly that’s given the mandate to the commission.

I want to say that the report that came back certainly poses a lot of questions to us as legislators and that the numbers and recommendations that came to us certainly challenges our opinions and our philosophy and the right type of representation to the people in the Northwest Territories. It’s almost to a point of people telling us, do we need more politicians.

That’s a very easy question for people to answer. Sometimes that’s not really fair because of the stigma politicians have in our communities in the Northwest Territories. However, when I look at the numbers here and I look at the representation and challenges ahead of us, as Mr. Dolynny has indicated, we are challenged with a court case if we leave it at status quo. Right away we know.

This land, as in my prayer this afternoon, talked about for peace and justice in our land and for the constant recognition of the dignity and aspirations of all whom we serve. That prayer talks about the people that we serve in our region, in our communities. We come from a diverse background of cultures. When I look at the recommendations and I see the potential of one culture, a nation of people that may not exist very long within our structure, in our representation, that scares me. I’m not going to support it if I have to do something to it.

When I see the overrepresentation, and I see some of them in our regions, for example in Monfwi, I see that it is plus-39 percent. I see that some of the numbers are fairly close to some of the other communities or other regions, and where they have two MLAs, I think if that’s the high number here, the numbers are pretty close. I think, is that fair? For me, as a representative of Sahtu, it is beneficial for me to go to 21 because I know in the future that I will have that discussion. Hopefully that discussion will happen.

When I look at programs and services and the financial cost to add in more MLAs, that’s a good argument, because we’re always asking for additional funds for programs and services and that’s a hard argument to counter against. Logic says yes, but are we doing any more than what we’re doing today? When you look at the budget, look at where we’re spending. There is always going to be a lack of money. So I can’t really weigh too much on that point.

When I look at in our government and our unique style of government, it’s the culture and the nation of people. Each nation of people, each culture needs to be represented in the Northwest Territories and that’s what we need to hang on to. That’s the fairness.

Just on voting turnouts in the last election, Yellowknife voter turnout was 30 to 40 percent. In the Sahtu we had only 50 percent. The other regions had 60 to 90 percent. If we have an extra MLA here in Yellowknife… The voter turnout was only 30 to 40 percent. That’s telling me something. I wanted to say that when we have a culture group or a nation group being looked at as being moved or changed, then I’m not for it. Even at 19, Mr. Bromley talks about Weledeh, Ndilo and Detah moving into Tu Nedhe. He told me that they don’t want to. We have to respect that. When I see Mr. Lafferty ’s riding, Monfwi, being at 39 percent, I have

to say well, yes, it makes sense. That makes sense for me. Maybe the Sahtu will change; I don’t know. But I think we need to look at what’s keeping our uniqueness here in the Northwest Territories.

If you go by numbers, Yellowknife will always get the numbers, and it is a little bit of politics, because when you come down to votes, the numbers count. The numbers do count and the numbers count when you want to prove something.

I’m going to lean to the number of 21. I was leaning to 19, but in the report it shows that we’re going to do something that’s going to cause some disharmony amongst a nation of people. For the prayer I said “for peace and justice on our land,” – we have to remember that – “and the constant recognition of the dignity and the aspirations of those whom we serve.” I serve the Sahtu people. You serve other people in your ridings. For me the report brings out a lot of questions. The least basic fact is that we’ve got to make a decision.

The commission did the best they could with the mandate they have and the number of people they saw. So I want to thank them and say that they had a very tough job.

Now the buck stops here in the Assembly, it stops with us and we have to make that decision. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Robert Bouchard

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya . Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is a very interesting discussion here this afternoon. I was happy to be speaking last because I had a chance to hear everybody’s concerns. I had shared with some of the Members that we had a discussion like this quite a number of years ago when we were discussing how many MLAs we were going to have, and I rushed in and sided with some other people in an attempt to not give an extra seat to Yellowknife and it went to the courts. It ended up instead of five we ended up with seven Yellowknife MLAs. At the time, when I think about it now, it was kind of politically motivated.

Yes, the Yellowknife MLAs can thank me. Friends of Democracy I’m sure didn’t appreciate it after all the court costs.

I’ve been listening to all of the discussion here today and one thing that struck me that was repeated by several people is that the last thing the people out there are saying is that we need more MLAs, then we talk very passionately about more doctors or front-line workers or nurses. Let me suggest that two more MLAs in this House could be paid for by displacing two public servants of any kind in administration. We hire an assistant deputy minister like that for far more money than what we make as MLAs. We add to the public service without even a second thought and yet we sit here and disparage ourselves and the work that we do by saying, who wants more politicians. We

disparage ourselves. Who wants more MLAs? I think MLAs…I think it’s an honourable job. I’m honoured to be called an MLA and to serve the people Anyway, I just wanted to comment on that because I heard that repeated by several people. They made it sound like MLAs were like a plague on the land or something.

Comments have also been made about the cost of democracy. It is costly, but I don’t think we count it in dollars. I mean, I think to put a price on this and say that we’re going to make a decision here based on budget restraint or fiscal policy is really missing the point completely. Once you start adjusting those boundaries on the ridings, it’s like a domino e