R. v. J.J.P. and T.L.C. Date:, 2011 BCPC 468

Citation: R. v. J.J.P. and T.L.C. Date: 20110426 2011 BCPC 0468 File Nos: 55360-1 54593-3-B Registry: North Vancouver IN THE PROVINCIAL COURT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA REGINA v. J.J.P. T.L.C. ORAL REASONS FOR SENTENCE OF THE HONOURABLE JUDGE J. CHALLENGER Counsel for the Crown: M. Mahoney Counsel for the Accused J.J.P : C. Chaichian Counsel for the Accused T.L.C : M. Smith

Place of Hearing: North Vancouver , B.C. Date of Judgment: April 26, 2011 [ 1 ] THE COURT: These are my reasons in the matter of J.J.P. and T.L.C.

J.J.P. pleaded guilty on December 17 th , 2010, to Count 3, an assault against Ian Huntley, arising July 17 th , 2010; Count 4, a robbery of an Ana Lugo, arising July 19 th , 2010; and Count 5, a robbery of Kerri Waite arising July 19 th , 2010. [ 2 ] T.L.C. pleaded guilty on the same date to Count 1, a robbery of a Shirin Meghji Ahamed arising July 17 th , 2010; Count 4, a robbery of Ana Lugo arising July 19 th , 2010; and Count 6, an assault against Benita Anderson, also arising July 19 th , 2010. [ 3 ] All of the offences occurred here in North Vancouver.

The Crown proceeded by indictment. [ 4 ] The Court ordered a PSR with Gladue components for each accused. Sentencing submissions were made April 12 th , and I reserved my decision until today. [ 5 ] The circumstances respecting Counts 1 and 2 which occurred on July 17 th , 2010, are that Ms. Ahamed, who was 76 years of age at the time of the robbery, was waiting for a bus about 11:00 p.m. near the intersection of Capilano Road and Marine Drive. She noted the two accused talking nearby. T.L.C. then approached her and punched her in the face with sufficient force to cause her to fall and to break her leg.

T.L.C. then took Ms. Ahamed's purse and fled. [ 6 ] Mr. Huntley, who is also a complainant, went to offer assistance to Ms. Ahamed, but was intercepted by J.J.P. who repeatedly punched him in the head. J.J.P. had to be pulled off Mr. Huntley by another male. Both accused were intoxicated and J.J.P. also fled the scene. [ 7 ] With respect to the offences on July 19 th , I will refer first to Counts 5 and 6. With respect to that matter, these two accused entered a car dealership where Ms. Waite was working. Ms. Anderson was in the lot looking at cars. Ms.

Waite found the two accused to be suspicious and began to call for what I understood to be a male employee to come in from the lot. J.J.P. then grabbed her purse, and Ms. Waite grabbed it back. J.J.P. pushed her to the ground, and her wallet fell out of her purse. She got a hold of her wallet and continued to struggle with J.J.P. Ms. Anderson had become concerned about what was going on and entered the dealership to assist Ms. Waite and was hit in the head with a bag containing canned food. That bag was wielded by T.L.C.

The two accused then left the scene but were apprehended shortly thereafter. [ 8 ] It came to light that immediately before entering the car dealership, the circumstances of Count 4 occurred. Ms. Lugo was simply out and about on the street when T.L.C. approached her, punched her in the face, pushed her to the ground and took her purse. [ 9 ] Once under arrest, both accused confessed to their involvement in these offences. The motivation for the robberies was to obtain money for crack and/or heroin and/or alcohol.

I find both were equally culpable for the physical attacks and harm done to all of the victims. [ 10 ] A victim impact statement was filed for four of the five victims. Ms. Ahamed has suffered greatly. She has required surgery, which comes at great risk for someone of her age, and her daily activities and social contact have been limited as a result of her injury. She is now afraid to use public transport. [ 11 ] Ms. Lugo continues to experience fear when she is out in the community. [ 12 ] Ms.

Waite has also suffered from fear when in the community and continues to be traumatized and is taking counselling. [ 13 ] Ms. Anderson suffered a large laceration to her scalp which required six staples. She then suffered concussive symptomology. She had a bloody nose, which also bled internally, and bruising to her face, head and arm. She has required ongoing physiotherapy for soft tissue injury to her neck and has had recurring infections in her ear. Ms. Anderson continues to be fearful and has pursued counselling to deal with the impact of the trauma.

She has also been unable to work and has experienced a reduction in income. Antecedents of the Accused [ 14 ] J.J.P. is currently 28 years of age. He was born in Ontario and is of First Nations ancestry. It is believed that he was impacted by drug use by his mother when she was pregnant with him. He was apprehended as a child due to abuse and neglect and spent his childhood in various care homes and foster homes. Early on he developed a substance abuse issue and has only so far has achieved Grade 10 level of education. [ 15 ] He came to British Columbia in 2003.

Since residing in British Columbia, he has not had a stable residence. It appears he prefers to live on the streets. When he has worked, it has been as a casual labourer. In 2009, J.J.P. fathered a child named J. The mother of the child was also a substance abuser and the child was apprehended at birth. J. will likely be placed for adoption. J.J.P. receives disability due to fetal alcohol syndrome disorder and bipolar disorder. [ 16 ] Due to his resistance to treatment and his level of aggression, he is not yet meaningfully engaged in any form of treatment for his substance abuse or other disorders.

He continues to abuse alcohol, which in turn results in further aggression. To his credit, he did complete the Substance Abuse Management Core Program when in custody.

[ 17 ] J.J.P. has a lengthy criminal history commencing in April of 2000. There are some breaks in his record, but for the most

part it is an ongoing series of offences. With respect to violence, in March of 2001, he was convicted of uttering threats and received 30 days concurrent to a number of other dispositions. In October of 2001, he was convicted of spousal assault and received 84 days and probation for 18 months. In May of 2007, he was convicted of assault and received a seven-month sentence. In November of 2007, he was convicted of assault and received the equivalent of approximately a 50-day sentence.

In September of 2009, he was convicted of assault causing bodily harm and received a six-month conditional sentence order and probation to follow. In March of 2010, he was convicted of assault and received a four-month jail sentence and probation. He also has numerous failures to comply with bail and probation. His conditional sentence order resulted in a breach one month after it was imposed and termination one month after that. [ 18 ] J.J.P.'s last conviction was for violence.

He was on probation with respect to that offence and would have just completed his custodial sentence at the time of these offences. [ 19 ] According to the Pre-Sentence Report, he has been non-complaint and not amenable to community-based treatment or counselling. He has few pro-social supports or contacts in the community. Rather, he continues to associate with others who are involved in criminal behaviour and substance abuse. He told the probation officer who prepared the Pre-Sentence Report that he had little recollection of the offences due to his level of intoxication.

He said it was T.L.C.'s idea to rob people by taking their purses. [ 20 ] T.L.C. is 39 years of age. Her mother is from the Squamish Nation and so, of course, is she. Her mother died when she was one year old, and her father refused to assume care of her and another sibling. She went to live with extended family and was subjected to abuse and violence there. As a result, she was taken into the care of the Ministry at age eight where she remained until she became independent at 17. She has no contact with her father.

She has achieved a Grade 11 education. [ 21 ] She has given birth now to seven children over three relationships. Her oldest child is now an adult. The rest of her children live with their fathers, and she has some ongoing contact with them. She was living with J.J.P. at the time of the offences.

After her arrest she spent three months in custody and was then released to reside in a recovery house where she remains today. [ 22 ] Over her adult life, she has had some employment, specifically two years as a receptionist for the local Band, two and a half years in total as a grocery store clerk or cashier, and telemarketing for eight months. She otherwise relies on social assistance for her support. [ 23 ] Now that she has been taken in custody and is in a treatment and recovery home, she has been prescribed medication for a suspected bipolar disorder and for depression.

She is now stabilized on those medications and is doing well. [ 24 ] T.L.C. has been abusing alcohol, marihuana, cocaine and more recently heroin over her life. She has attempted treatment in the past but has relapsed. At page three of the Pre-Sentence Report, under "Substance Mis-use" it states as follows: She states she did not seek out other assistance with her substance abuse issues until October 2010 when she began residing at Harte House, a VisionQuest Society recovery house where she remains at this time.

The manager of Hart House, Sherri Sleven reports that the subject has made remarkable progress over the past five months, abstaining from alcohol and illicit drugs during this period and attending five Alcoholics Anonymous meetings a week, a 12-step program and counselling. [ 25 ] Under "Sentencing Considerations for Aboriginal Offenders" it notes as follows: D.P., the subject's cousin, who is a support worker at the Squamish Nation Reserve in North Vancouver, states that she has worked with the subject and her family in the past and that the subject may access services and support through the Squamish Nation even though she is not residing on the reserve. [ 26 ] Under "Attitude and Understanding Regarding the Offence" at page five, the Pre-Sentence Report says as follows: During an interview for the preparation of this report, the subject was cooperative and expressed regret over her involvement in the offences before the court.

Regarding these offences, she states that she had been drinking excessively and had used cocaine and heroin on the days of these incidents. She indicates that she has only vague memories of these events, was disturbed when she was told the details of her actions during these offences. [ 27 ] Her sponsor spoke in Court on her behalf and described T.L.C. as embracing her recovery and that she is fully engaged and compliant with the program and is emotionally stable.

T.L.C., at 39, has had no previous involvement in the criminal justice system despite her challenging circumstances and longstanding substance abuse issues. [ 28 ] Since her release in October, she has been bound by strict terms on bail and has been fully compliant. She did spend three months in custody prior to her release.

It is of significant note that prior to these offences, T.L.C. had suffered a family breakdown in 2009 and was then the victim of significant sexual violence in the spring of 2009 and again in the spring of 2010. [ 29 ] The mitigating factors for both accused are that they confessed their involvement in these offences to the police and each entered early guilty pleas. With respect to T.L.C., she has ongoing mental health challenges. She has no previous criminal history or involvement.

She is remorseful and has demonstrated her responsibility and remorse by taking meaningful steps towards her rehabilitation. [ 30 ] J.J.P. also suffers from cognitive challenges and mental health issues, specifically, fetal alcohol syndrome disorder and bipolar

disorder. [ 31 ] The aggravating factors with respect to both accused are that these offences involve sudden, random, violent, face-to face attacks on innocent members of society going about their business. It is particularly aggravating that they were undeterred by resistance or the intervention of others trying to stop the offences. T.L.C.'s action in hitting Ms. Anderson in the head with a bag containing canned foods I can only describe as gratuitous violence. As I have noted, Ms. Ahamed was a particularly vulnerable victim being of the age that she was.

They caused significant and lasting injury to her and to Ms. Anderson who went to assist Ms. Waite. They have caused significant lasting psychological trauma to all four female victims. [ 32 ] With respect to J.J.P., the Court has to take into account that he has a lengthy history of criminal involvement involving crimes of violence and that he had just finished a custodial sentence for a crime of violence and was on probation for that. [ 33 ] All counsel relied on the same four cases. The first in time is R. v . Thompson , a decision of our Court of Appeal, reported at 2003 BCCA 308 .

That matter involved a purse snatching from a woman who had just left an automatic teller machine. The accused was a male, 35 years of age with no criminal record and very good prospects for recovery. The Court of Appeal found an error and substituted a sentence of three months' jail and probation. [ 34 ] The next case is R. v . Bush . It is a decision of our Court of Appeal, July 18 th , 2006, reported at 2006 BCCA 350 . In this case, the Court of Appeal sets a range of three months to four years, and a sentence equivalent to three years custody was deemed to be fit.

The accused in that matter was 39 and had a long criminal history. There were two previous convictions for robbery. He was on probation at the time of the offence. This offender was also undeterred by the resistance of the victim, and the Court reiterated that denunciation, specific and general deterrence were important principles to be given weight in a sentencing of this nature. [ 35 ] The next case is R. v . Jimmie , a decision of our Court of Appeal, May 19 th , 2009, reported at 2009 BCCA 215 . In that matter, a sentence of two years plus one day was determined to be fit.

The Court of Appeal set out the range for a first offence of this nature from four months to two years for a first offence and a single offence. This offender was 46 year old female of First Nations ancestry. She had a long record. She was on probation at the time of the offence. The victim was an 81-year-old person, so therefore a vulnerable victim. The accused was an alcoholic who had been impacted by the Gladue factors. [ 36 ] And finally, R. v . Awasis , a decision of our Court of Appeal, April 26 th , 2010, reported at 2010 BCCA 213 . In that matter, a sentence of two years was determined to be fit. Mr.

Awasis grabbed a wallet from a man's pocket on the SkyTrain. The man struggled briefly and his head was pushed against the door. Mr. Awasis was 29 and had a lengthy criminal history which consisted of four previous robberies, among other offences. He was on probation at the time of the offence. He was an addict and an alcoholic. He was untreated and not amenable to treatment. [ 37 ] The Crown position with respect to J.J.P. is that a sentence of two and a half to five years is appropriate. If the Court determines that a sentence of two years less a day should be imposed, then there should be probation to follow.

With respect to T.L.C., the Crown's position is a sentence of 18 months to five years is appropriate, and again, if less than two years, there should be probation to follow. These offences are both primary-designated offences for the purpose of provision of DNA, and the Crown is asking for firearms prohibitions for life. [ 38 ] Counsel for J.J.P. asked the Court to consider a sentence at the lower end of the range; in other words, a low federal sentence.

Counsel for T.L.C. asked the Court to give T.L.C. 1.0 to 1.5 time for the three months' time served and then place her on probation for a period of three years. [ 39 ] I have considered all the principles of sentence as set out in s. 718 , 718.1 and 718.2 of the Criminal Code , and specifically 718.2(e). I am considering the offences to be part of a crime spree on behalf of both these offenders. I have given consideration to the totality of sentence for each offender given the three different incidents. I have given consideration to the step-up principle regarding J.J.P.

However, as will later be seen, as I am not giving him a sentence aimed at rehabilitation, the step-up principle is to some extent not appropriate. See R. v . Bush ( supra ), para. 9. [ 40 ] I have also considered the Gladue factors for both offenders and have attempted to craft a sentence which will serve to give remedial purpose of s. 718.2 (e), in particular with respect to T.L.C.. [ 41 ] The role of this Court in sentencing First Nations offenders is to attempt to remedy the injustice done to Canada's aboriginal peoples.

The Court needs to respond to the needs, experiences and perspectives of aboriginal people and their communities with community-based sanctions where reasonable to do so. For many, such as T.L.C., she is unlikely to be rehabilitated in a custodial setting, since our custodial circumstances are culturally inappropriate and there is rampant discrimination against First Nations people there.

In my view, the nature of the offences and the circumstances of both these offenders call these Gladue principles or factors into play. [ 42 ] With respect to T.L.C. and despite the vicious nature of the crime she committed, I am satisfied she is currently at a low risk to reoffend. She has taken responsibility for her offending behaviour. She has demonstrated that responsibility by cleaning up and going to treatment and throwing herself headlong into the treatment process. She has the support of her local community.

She has the support of family and friends and can access the resources of the Squamish First Nation. [ 43 ] She is the mother of seven children with three fathers, all of whom need her. Her community needs her to help raise her children, and in my view, society at large needs her to be contributing to the raising of her children, to her family, to her community and the rest of us. In my view, the best interests of society as a whole will be served by imposing a sentence which will serve to rehabilitate her and to assist all in the healing process.

I am certainly aware that denunciation and general deterrence are important principles with respect to crimes of this nature. In my view, the time she has served already and a lengthy probation period can serve these principles in this matter, particularly if that probation is aimed both at rehabilitation and reparation. [ 44 ] Balancing all of the sentencing principles and the Gladue factors and the circumstances, I am satisfied that T.L.C. can receive a

sentence of time served, and that, Madam Clerk, will be reflected as actual time served three months, with credit for time served at a 1.0- to-1.5-ratio netting 4.5 months' credit. There will now be a sentence of one day and probation for three years. I will return later to the terms of that probation. [ 45 ] With respect to J.J.P., it is unfortunate that his circumstances dictate a quite different result. At this point, there is little before me to suggest that he could or would comply with any community-based disposition.

It appears that at the present time J.J.P. is entrenched in a criminal lifestyle and ongoing substance abuse. That substance abuse and criminal lifestyle has now been longstanding. He has clearly been undeterred by his previous dealings with the justice system, no more eloquently demonstrated than by the fact he would have been just out of jail and commencing a probationary period for a previous crime of violence when these offences took place.

In my view, society needs to be protected from J.J.P. to some degree, and the principles of denunciation and general deterrence and also specific deterrence of him as an offender must take greater weight than the principles of rehabilitation or the principles as set out in R. v . Gladue . Paradoxically, because of J.J.P.'s cognitive difficulties, it may well be that his best prospects for rehabilitation lay in a period of custody in a federal institution. [ 46 ] With respect to J.J.P., I find an appropriate sentence is three years. He has now by my count spent nine months in custody.

I am going to grant him a time in custody credit at 1.25-to-1.0, which I have rounded to credit for 12 months' time served. There will, therefore, be a sentence of two years plus one day new time. My reasons for granting him the 1.25 ratio are because he would likely receive some remission even with this record.

He has had to share a cell in North Fraser Pre-Trial Centre, which is a very difficult institution for anyone, and because of the Gladue factors. [ 47 ] With respect to T.L.C., the terms of her probation will be that she is to keep the peace and be of good behaviour. [ 48 ] You are to report in person by no later than noon tomorrow, April 27 th , to a probation officer at 100-233 West 1 st Street in North Vancouver and thereafter as and when directed by the probation officer. [ 49 ] You are to reside as directed by the probation officer and do not change that residence without the prior written permission of the probation officer. [ 50 ] You will reside at any residential treatment or recovery centre as directed by your probation officer, and when residing in residential treatment or recovery, you will obey all the rules and regulations of that treatment centre, including any curfew. [ 51 ] You will attend for, accept and complete to the satisfaction of your probation officer any counselling or assessments. [ 52 ] You are to have no contact direct or indirect with Shirin Meghji Ahamed, Ian Huntley, Ana Lugo, Kerri Waite or Benita Anderson, save and except for the provision of a letter of apology to be transmitted through your probation officer, or for the purposes of participating in a victim offender reconciliation program with the prior consent of any of the victims. [ 53 ] You are not to attend at any residence or place of employment at which you know Shirin Meghji Ahamed, Ian Huntley, Ana Lugo, Kerri Waite or Benita Anderson to reside or work. [ 54 ] And perhaps we should put a specific no go to the address on Marine Drive, the car dealer. [ 55 ] MR.

MAHONEY: Doesn't work there any more. [ 56 ] THE COURT: Okay. You are not to be in possession of any firearm, cross-bow, prohibited weapon, restricted weapon, imitation weapon, prohibited device, ammunition, prohibited ammunition and explosive substance or all such things and any related authorizations, licences and registration certificates pursuant to the Criminal Code .

Do you have any such items to surrender? [ 57 ] THE ACCUSED T.L.C: No. [ 58 ] THE COURT: You will abstain absolutely from the possession or consumption of alcohol or any drugs or substances scheduled in the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act , save and except according to a medical prescription and then only according to the dosage prescribed. [ 59 ] I am sorry, you are not -- there are some other weapons terms I should have included.

You are not to possess any knives except for the immediate preparation or consumption of food or such knives as are necessary to carry out the duties of your employment at your place of employment. And you are now doing some handwork, are you not, some crafts, or..? [ 60 ] THE ACCUSED T.L.C: Yeah. [ 61 ] THE COURT: -- or handwork. Right. So I will put, or for the purpose of handcrafts. [ 62 ] And you are not to be found in possession of any weapons as described by the Criminal Code . [ 63 ] And, finally, I am going to impose what is called a Rogers Order.

You will take reasonable steps to maintain yourself in such condition that your mental health will not likely cause you to conduct yourself in a manner dangerous to yourself or anyone else and it is not likely you will commit further offences. [ 64 ] If directed to do so by your probation officer, you will forthwith report to the Forensic Psychiatric Services Outpatient Clinic at 300-307 West Broadway, Vancouver, British Columbia, or a local community care team. [ 65 ] You will thereafter attend as directed from time to time at the Forensic Psychiatric Outpatient Clinic at 300-307 West Broadway, Vancouver, B.C., or a local community care team for the purpose of receiving such medical counselling and treatment or medication as may be recommended, except that you shall not be required to submit to any treatment or medication to which you do not

consent. [ 66 ] If you do not consent to the form of medical treatment or medication which is prescribed or recommended, you shall forthwith report to your probation officer. If directed to do so by your probation officer, you shall report to the Forensic Psychiatric Services Outpatient Clinic at 300-307 West Broadway, Vancouver, B.C., or a local community care team for the purposes of being monitored with respect to a possible breach. [ 67 ] You shall provide your treating physician with a copy of this order and the name, address, and telephone number of your probation officer.

You shall instruct your treating physician that if you fail to take medication as prescribed by him or fail to keep any appointments made with him, he is to advise your probation officer immediately of any such failure. [ 68 ] And I need to put reasons on the record as to why I have granted T.L.C. 1.5-to-1.0 time as opposed to 1.0-to-1.0 time, and I do so for the reason that she was a first-time offender in custody; that she was held at I assume Surrey Pre-trial; is that correct? [ 69 ] UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Surrey. [ 70 ] THE COURT: Yes.

Where the conditions we know to be extremely difficult and because she would receive remission. [ 71 ] Each sentence for each offender is concurrent on each count. [ 72 ] Each offender will provide their DNA. J.J.P., that will be done in custody. [ 73 ] T.L.C., you will also be subject to a firearms prohibition and the same for you, J.J.P. and it will be for life.

You are not to be in possession of any firearm, cross-bow, prohibited weapon, restricted weapon, imitation weapon, prohibited device, ammunition, prohibited ammunition, explosive substance or all such things and any related authorizations, licences and registration certificates. That is pursuant to s. 109 of the Code . [ 74 ] And for her DNA, Mr. Smith? [ 75 ] UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Next week is fine. [ 76 ] THE COURT: Next week is fine. [ 77 ] MR. SMITH: By next Wednesday perhaps. [ 78 ] THE COURT: Okay. All right.

So you will provide a sample of your DNA to the North Vancouver RCMP by no later than Wednesday, May 4 th , and you are to report at 1:30 on any Tuesday or Wednesday for the purpose of providing your DNA. [ 79 ] Now, are there any comments or concerns about any of the terms of her probation? Anything we missed in terms of housekeeping? [ 80 ] MR. SMITH: Nothing, Your Honour. [ 81 ] MR. MAHONEY: You don't want any obey rules or regulations or anything like that?

We'll just leave that. [ 82 ] THE COURT: I have got her curfew when she is in residential treatment or recovery, she is to obey all the rules and regulations – [ 83 ] MR. MAHONEY: Okay. [ 84 ] THE COURT: -- including any curfew. Did you want a curfew, a general curfew when she is not in residential treatment or recovery? [ 85 ] MR. MAHONEY: I don't think that, unless you want to add that as a punitive term. I don't see a reason. One was at night. One – [ 86 ] THE COURT: I do not see a reason arising from the offences. [ 87 ] MR. MAHONEY: One was in the middle of the day, so ... [ 88 ] THE COURT: Yes.

Okay. [ 89 ] MR. MAHONEY: So a stay – [ 90 ] UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: She has about four meetings to go to a week, so, and they run at -- we do evening meetings at the recovery house. [ 91 ] THE COURT: Okay. When she is in your recovery house, she follows your curfew. She is otherwise not bound by a curfew. All right, T.L.C., if you will stand. Good luck. I hope that you continue your healing and that you resume your role as a parent to your children. Good luck. [ 92 ] MR.

MAHONEY: A stay of proceedings on the balance of the charges on the information and also there is an outstanding breach information for J.J.P. [ 93 ] THE COURT: Oh, and the victim fine surcharge is waived on each matter on all counts.

[ 94 ] THE CLERK: Are DNAs primary or secondary? [ 95 ] THE COURT: Primary. [ 96 ] THE CLERK: Thank you. [ 97 ] MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. [ 98 ] MR. MAHONEY: Thank you, Your Honour. [ 99 ] THE COURT: Right. Good luck, J.J.P. Oh, wait a minute. Mr. Mahoney, is there a breach outstanding for him? [ 100 ] MR. MAHONEY: I stayed it. [ 101 ] THE COURT: Oh, it is stayed. It is not going ahead. [ 102 ] MR. MAHONEY: Yeah. [ 103 ] THE ACCUSED J.J.P: Is that two years concurrent or – [ 104 ] THE COURT: You have got two years plus a day new time.

So you will be going to a federal institution. [ 105 ] THE ACCUSED J.J.P: All right. [ 106 ] THE COURT: Okay? [ 107 ] THE ACCUSED J.J.P: Is that for all the charges? [ 108 ] THE COURT: That is for everything, sir. Yes, the equivalent of something over three years. (REASONS FOR SENTENCE CONCLUDED)